Searching

[moel]

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[amanda]

And yet that certainty of not even knowing what to look for, or where- is that not also part of the search?

Part and parcel, bit by tiny bit- we are gathering. Moving. Edging. Towards….something. Somewhere.

Religions have been asked by society to go forth and be one vehicle for this search. Different roads have been taken by that same vehicle. What we see before us- the diversity of honoring an idea, be it personified or amorphous, that is higher than the humans who created it, is the result of that request.

Beauty, light, art, community, culture, all the senses, all of the heart engage for a single purpose. Our meaning.

And yet, for some, for many over time- religion has fallen short of the mark.

Renaissance- a rebirth of the quest. Only this time, logic, objectivity, tangibility are the tenets of this new vehicle. One and only one road has been taken by that vehicle. What we see before us –the unified, disciplined ordinance of the mind, executing sound logic that is higher than the humans who created it, is the result of that request.

Beauty, light, purity of thought, individual, exactness, enhancing our senses, enhancing the mind engage for a single purpose. Our meaning.

And yet, for some, for many over time- science has fallen short of the mark.

Searching, searching is the our expression of what it means to Be.

[Deviate]

I'd like to preface my reply with a quick apology: I ramble considerably and perhaps it does not follow one train of thought. I tend to jump from concept to concept with no connection. Sorry ;)

-st.

The need for the search is the one thing that removes us from the thing for which we search.

Look at it biblically. Humans are booted from the Garden of Eden, which provided peace, comfort and harmony with all creatures and with God. We ate an apple. That apple provided knowledge. This perceived knowledge took us from ultimate understanding and delivered us to a land of science and wonder and imagination, but away from creation.

Animals trust. Animals fit in a balance.

Humans doubt. Humans are outside of the balance. And we tip the scale considerably.

Your solace can be Allah or Jesus, Bramin or Gaia. You can put your faith in science or mathematics, in nature or in the universe.

The fact that we can dream, create art and literature, and imagine endless worlds, possibilities, that we can love and are drawn towards love…these things alone make me certain of higher forces, planes, creators, circles. We are a part of something bigger. Perhaps we have been removed from the gates of the divine, but it is in our searching for the definite and proof that locks the door shut.

Humans have no capability to conceive the infinite. To try to draw lines around something that exceeds infinity is to accept failure. This does not mean there is no answer; it just means perhaps we have to be comfortable with the inability to find it.

A quote paraphrased from my favourite book of all time:
“God cannot prove he exists for proof denies faith and without faith God is nothing.”
Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams

[moel]

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[amanda]

thank you moel- you've started something quite good here.

God cannot prove "he" exists, because in that proof, it means there is something it is not.

If it proves that it is the song, it means that it is not in the silence.

Look at my custom text. It looks like I'm poking fun at religion. Perhaps I am, in a way. But there's more to it than that.

The label we give God is in itself limiting. Mere words are limiting. Lines we trace are limits. God is Gob. God is good and goob. Gob is good and goob. Gob is goob.
Goo- goo- ga joob.

Sorry, couldn't help that last bit. ;)

Here, let me share something that will help point to the way a bit...

"Imagine the universe beautiful and just and perfect,
Then be sure one thing:
the Is has imagined it quite a bit better than you have."
-Richard Bach, Illusions

[masterofNone]

"argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours


The simplest questions are the most profound.

Where were you born?
Where is your home?
Where are you going?
What are you doing?

Think about these once in awhile, and watch your answers change.

Your friends will know you better in the first minute you meet than your acquaintances will know you in a thousand years.

The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life.

Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof. "

Don Shimoda

[amanda]

True that, MoN. That's why I'm here.
And there.

If you will practice being fictional for awhile, you will understand that fictional characters are sometimes more real than people with bodies and heartbeats.

Once more,

The original sin is to limit the Is. Don't.

and

Everything in this book may be wrong.

[Indigo]

It was quite some time ago that I stopped busting brain cells trying to figure out the "meaning of life". I'd much rather watch the movie.

At first read I guess that sounds shallow, or rather like I'm all into myself. That's far from what I intend to say, though. It's just that I don't understand why. Why do such horrible things happen to such innocents. That's been my big beef with God. Defenseless beings suffering. It just pisses me off.

I know there is a God. I don't necessarily believe all I've been taught about him. Much like most of our generation that cares to study God, I have my own personal religion. It's why I don't do well in church. While I long for the fellowship of others who believe, I don't fellowship well with those that think they know what's up, and almost everyone I meet thinks they've got a real bead on it. All their ideas are different, and so they fight about it.

Noone knows the why's. That's THE one thing I'm absolutely positive of concerning God and His Will.

I accept the fact that I don't know. I accept the fact that I'm not going to be the one to discover the big secret, and in that I've just lost the desire to argue our existence with anyone.

Accept responsibilty for your actions AND reactions. Ultimately, that is all you can control in this world. Yourself.

I believe in all the peaceful teachers that God has sent us, and yet am not shocked that most of us still just don't get it. I believe you get to go to Heaven just because you believe it. And if you really believe it you won't do anything that would keep you from going there. So, you don't have to send anyone your money.

I believe you should tithe. Use your tithe to take care of someone who really really needs help. I do not believe in putting up with a bunch of crap from able bodied lazy ass people who just want to mooch their way through life. It's their choice if that's how they choose to spend their life, I respect that. I wish them no ill... I just won't fund it, clean it, or partake in it.

I believe at the center of every bad thing is inconsideration. Not thinking about how things affect each other. Not thinking.

When I realized getting angry about such things (or any things)
only hurts the angry person, is when I started to really develop my OWN beliefs. I believe that what IS real, is whatever you believe in. What you give life to.

I believe in reincarnation, and that what I don't learn this time, I get to do again. I believe in thanking God, the earth, the animal, the plant, etc... etc... for what I use. I don't believe I could truly be a Vegan or any other extremist because I just don't believe one can function in the world we were born to, without bruising the earth in some way. Noone can avoid taking part in said bruising on some level. So just I just try to say a real heartfelt Thanks for having taken what I need to survive, and not be a hog about it.

But at the heart of what I believe, is the admittance and acceptance of the fact that I have no idea whats really what. I'm just trying to do what I feel is best for my being without harming anyone elses. And I usually feel very overwhelmed.

[Deviate]

i was philosophical as all get-out when i was young. while other high-school parties where swimming with alcohol and sex we were swimming in the ethers of theory and imagination.

but it hurt me considerably. i began working out every situation into possibilities and eventualities, philosophies and ideals. i looked at conceptual infinity and couldn't turn back. and when it began to plague my daily activities i knew i needed to stop.

i have limited my life in doing so; i was a sad price to pay. as much as i loved reading the words of neiztche, kant, payne, and others, i gave them up. i stopped writing on the subjects that piqued my interest. i just stopped.

i eventually came to an understanding. there are many questions to which we will never find an answer. in that we should have much respect.

there are many things that go beyond our plane of thought. in this we should have respect.

the very breath of life, of concious thought, of seemingly free will, is mystery and a miracle. in this we should have much respect.

we don't need to understand WHY we have life or who or what gave us life. we just need to understand that we have life. and we need to respect it.

it actually bothers me when science pushes to know, learn, discover all the laws of the universe. the arrogance of some humans to believe that we, feeble creatures are actually capable of knowing everything irks me to no end.

and that's why the quote i made in my last post is so important to me. it is in trying to prove that there is a god that we lose all scent of a god's trail. any answers we seek we will lose meerly for searching at all.

there's some things we will never know.

and i still have trouble looking at the stars.

-st.

[masterofNone]

There are a couple of things this thread reminds me of. I'll scratch them down here and then sit back and read... because I could go on for a year and make less and less sense as I went. So here are a few morsels

Every religion has two things at their center. They are often expressed differently but I've found they are always expressed eloquently. I have my favorite expressions... The first is best expressed by Christ. "Seek and you shall find. Ask and you shall be answered." the second is best expressed bythe Zen saying, "The zen you can describe in words is not the real zen." All religions have similar sentiments at their heart. Life is best experienced as a search for answers, though the answers are different for every soul. The paradox is that there are no answers. Yet by searching, by asking, you find them. It is the act of searching that manifests that which is hidden. It is the act of asking that manifests the answer.

There is no definition of God because as you describe him you kill him. "If you meet the buddha on the road - kill him" Because he is not the true buddha. The true Buddha is within you. If you can describe God you have lost him because God is indescribable. Call him what you will since he has no name.

And, finally, I think from a purely secular approach the idea of the indescribable God is like a spiritual rorsache test. When we seek to worship God we are compelled to define that which has no definition (because, some would say, he does not in a real sense exist). But in seeking to define the indefineable we reveal much of ourselves. We are in a sense defining ourselves and our relationship to reality. The shapeless inkblot in our minds takes shape and becomes a father figure, an earth mother, an infant in a manger, an angry punisher, a gentle provider, an inscrutable jade statue, a wheel of life. It becomes what we are, what we need, what we wish, what we will.

Holy Monkey.

[Deviate]

hmmm.

[moel]

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[nycwriters]

Originally posted by masterofNone
There is no definition of God because as you describe him you kill him.

Neitzsche. The madman.

[beckstra]

I was certain that I knew You
At the tender age of twelve
You'd so often been described by those
Who said they knew You well
Dark and rugged in Your thirties
With a smile as bright as Your robe
Every teacher, every preacher
With the very best intent
Found new ways to hide the mystery
Replaced by common sense
And to know You was to keep You in my pocket
So easy to hold
I know I can't explain you
I would not even try to
Ad yet it's clear that You are here beside me
I marvel and I wonder
So near and somehow still so far
What makes You who You are?
It is easy to insist
On what is packaged and precise
And dismiss the clear suspicion
That You're bigger than we'd like
It is tempting to regard You as familiar
In so many ways
I've tried to draw these lines around You
A definition or an absolute
But I could not be satisfied with black or white
There is so much more
There is so much You


whoyouare by nichole.nordeman

[1kookykat]

Indigo:
It's just that I don't understand why. Why do such horrible things happen to such innocents. That's been my big beef with God. Defenseless beings suffering. It just pisses me off.
It's sad when someone who ostensibly believes becomes "mad" at God. I've been there. Most of us have, I'm sure.

Many people go beyond their own personal disappointments and cite the existence of pain and suffering in general as a reason to scorn the God of the Bible. The reasoning sounds very logical and goes something like this:
The Christian God is a Loving God
He is Omniscient
He is Omnipotent
Yet Evil exists in the world
Conclusion: The Christian God is a myth.

This is the age old Problem of Evil. If the first two attributes are true, then God must not be powerful enough to prevent Evil. If He is loving and all-powerful, then He must not have sufficient knowledge of the evil that occurs. And finally, if He is all-knowing and all-powerful then He must be simply unwilling to stop Evil, which is not loving. Therefore He does not exist.

Ironclad logic, right?

Wrong. It is fallacious (wishful thinking?) to assume that this conclusion must necessarily follow these four propositions. All one has to do is add a fifth proposition, namely that

God has a sufficiently moral reason for the evil that He allows.

There. Now we have five propositions that are not contradictory whatsoever. They may not be persuasive to some, but persuasion is another matter (see Luke 16:31).

What is God's reason you ask? Don't know. But He doesn't have to give reasons for what He does.

Ouch! That's the crux, isn't it. We want to sit in the Judge's seat and put Him in the dock. We don't want to acknowledge that we are the ones in the dock and He is on the throne.

All the people of the earth
are nothing compared to him.
He has the power to do as he pleases
among the angels of heaven
and with those who live on earth.
No one can stop him or challenge him,
saying, `What do you mean by doing these things?' - Daniel 4:35

Incidently, I didn't just pull this fifth premise out of my wazoo. It comes from the Bible just like the first four. I only point this out to show the cohesiveness of the Biblical worldview.
masterofNone:
If you can describe God you have lost him because God is indescribable.
Who says? You can make assertions all day long, but where do you get your ideas? What authority do you base these statements on? Encyclopedia Galactica?

Sorry to call you to task, moN, but consider this: What if God describes Himself? In word-pictures that we can understand?

Not that we could understand His infinite being comprehensively, of course. No one is saying that. But what if He were to tell us, in baby-talk that we could understand, the things we should know about Himself? I'm not even arguing for a particular Holy Book right now, only against careless metaphysical statements.

Some experiences like sex, music, art, chocolate, and love might be indescribable to some; namely to eunuchs, the hearingless, the sightless, the tasteless, and the heartless. But a God who can create and sustain a universe like this, complete with souls who can ponder these things, would not be daunted by the task of telling them a few things about Himself.

He might choose to leave you out of the loop, though.

All intellectualizing aside, my search didn't even begin until I trusted Him. Now I would even give up Guiness if He so required it.

Thankfully, He doesn't forbid it...

Cheers!:D

[masterofNone]

Who says? You can make assertions all day long, but where do you get your ideas? What authority do you base these statements on? Encyclopedia Galactica?

Well, first, in a discussion like this all we have are gratuitous assertions since no one has any objective evidence. And, second, given that we're all dealing with assertions I was just pointing out what the religions say themselves... although I tend to agree. And, finally, let's define our terms. My definition of the term "God" includes the words infinite, unknowable, and indescribable. Your definition may vary. But, given my definition, you cannot define the infinite, you cannot know the unknowable, you cannot describe the indescribable. From a purely semantic point of view at least it is a logical impossibility. And there is the paradox of God that is addressed in the referenced saying.

The god you can describe is not The God because God is beyond description.

The nice thing about logic... you don't need to carry an Encyclopedia. Logic isn't bulky, it unfolds.

[Deviate]

Originally posted by masterofNone
Logic isn't bulky, it unfolds.
this steals my words.

-st.

[noxxville]

Oddly enough, my girlfriend and I had a conversation very much along these lines last night. It was refreshing. This morning I woke up and remembered something that I had read years ago an has stuck with me ever since. It was something simple, yet spoke volumes to me.

I looked up the word "life" in an old dictionary I had (cheap way to find the meaning of life). The fifth or sixth definition stood out, and I've remembered it ever since.

Life - something essential to the continued existence of something else.

[lapietra]

thou art God

[Indigo]

originally posted by me:
I accept the fact that I don't know. I accept the fact that I'm not going to be the one to discover the big secret, and in that I've just lost the desire to argue our existence with anyone.

I'd send you a dollar but I'm pretty sure you'd just go drinking with Mike Hunt.

[moel]

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[Indigo]

Dirty Rotten Imbiciles

God is broke,
The well ran dry
So pay up while you can
Or you'll end up in hell



________

just a good old punk groove

[moel]

I had a dream last night I was about to meet god...
And when I awoke.... it was true.... it was only a dream.

[amanda]

The Search

I went to find the pot of gold
That's waiting where the rainbow ends
I searched and searched and searched and searched
And searched and searched and then-
There it was, deep in the grass,
Under an old and twisty bough
It's mine, it's mine, it's mine at last...
What do I search for now?

--Shel Silverstein

[moel]

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[beckstra]

Do you know why I believe the Bible really doesn't touch on our search for God? Because I believe he knows if we succeeded, we'd be too overwhelmed, too fallible to function, even to the point where we'd die.

Exodus 33:19,20

And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD , in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

As selfish as it may seem, I believe that our purpose is not to know him as we are discussing here (the ins and outs, functions and form, reason and logic), but to know him as to be known by him. If you were to concieve a list of the word "search" in the contexts that it is found in the Bible, the majority of contexts of this word consist of God searching for us, thus seperating Christian theology from any other religion or philosophy.

I believe the way we find God is when we search for him to be known by him.


Psalm 139

O LORD , you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

You hem me in-behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.

If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me," even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you.

If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from me, you bloodthirsty men! They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name. Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.

Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

[petitesoeur]

Originally posted by moel
Yes Yes!! Everyone feel welcome to add to this!...I love this philosophical thing we got going on here...even if all it does is inspire thought thats the idea.....great!!

i suggest this thread become a wakka on the zewikki.

whaddya think?

[moel]

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