Well this was an eye-opener

[nycwriters]

..

[masterofNone]

yeah... you want a real case of the twitches? check out the Afgahnistan- Caspean Sea pipeline situation viz a viz Haliburton and Enron. It feeds the mind a rich meal of conspiracy theories and 9/11.



lions, and tigers, and bears ... oh my.

[masterofNone]

there's the inquiring journalistic mind in action!

[dinzdale]

..and people laugh at me in the bar when I tell them exactly what you have just kindly showed us (it's my biz)....it's all about the oil, always has been, always will be.

[masterofNone]

Yeah, I understand. Seriously. But you'd think somebody would be taking a serious look at it somewhere and making it headline news.

[masterofNone]

Yeah, that's real good. Every little bit helps. You never know when a nudge will be enough to bring down the mountain. I personally can't imagine being in NYC on that day. It was surreal watching it from a distance. I... well I just can't imagine.

[dickieC]

I wish I could believe, but do we want to allow the second biggest oil reserves in the world to belong to a man who personally rapes the wives of his enemies?

I am as sceptical as the next person, but if it gets rid of Saddam, that can't be so bad...

(from a former member of the Labour Party)

[amanda]

Originally posted by masterofNone
yeah... you want a real case of the twitches? check out the Afgahnistan- Caspean Sea pipeline situation viz a viz Haliburton and Enron. It feeds the mind a rich meal of conspiracy theories and 9/11.


Sorry, I just woke up and am living in a one reliable English media source environment.

Can you elaborate, Mon?

I only ask because I thought the plans for an oil pipeline were set from Baku, going through Armenina (touchy relationships there as well: Azerbaijan and Armenia aren't exactly friends. Azerbaijan and Iran are.) on to the Black Sea- which would make it handy to bring Turkey into the EU in the coming months.

IF that is, enough reserves in the Caspian are purchased by companies OTHER than the former state-owned Russian oil conglomerates. Where I left it, studies found the Caspian rife with promise, according to BP and Chevron.

I hate moving to countries that provide holes in my understanding of what is going on in the world.

Ahh! and nyc!! THANK YOU for posting that.

[masterofNone]

I'm not a big fan of rumors but... Enron was working with the Taliban (then the government of Afghanistan) to put in a pipeline from the Caspean Sea oil field through Afghanistan. As you can see the alternatives were a trip through Turkey to the Mediterranian or through Russia to the Black Sea.
http://www.umt.edu/cap/gifs/map.jpg
The shorter route was through the "Stans". During the negotiations with the Afghan government, Enron's "man on the ground" was a guy named Hamid Karzhai (now the Afghan president). He was responsible for cutting a good deal with the Afghan government (read The Taliban). Well, the deal started to go sour. The Taliban decided to break off negotiations. That was in the summer of 2001. Then 9/11/2001 takes place. Look what happens in Afghanistan & Pakistan. The American's have an open excuse to essentially put both countries under occupation and martial law. The former Enron employee becomes the president. And miracle of miracles. the pipeline is back on...except now there are no Taliban to object.

The big picture. Whereas America was going to be cut out entirely from the Caspean Sea Oil fields in favor of european and russian concerns, now we're back in business. And even though Enron isn't around to reap the rewards... Haliburton is. (Dick Cheney was of course working for Haliburton before becoming VP). In an even more surreal twist...who recieved the contracts to build the camps in Guantanamo for the Taliban?
Haliburton.

And finally who has already been awarded the contract to restore the Iraqi oil fields to order after a potential conflict there? Haliburton.

It's so blatant it's shameless.

[amanda]

FVCK.

Thank you.

[masterofNone]

Imagine how much it would suck if the Russians had a monopoly on all of that oil. They'd have the money to become a superpower again. They'd still hate us. And they DEFINITELY have weapons of mass destruction. Would we be picking a fight with them to fill up our SUVs?

As McCauley Caulkin so eloquently put it...


I don't think so.

[masterofNone]

Yep. And that's just what we may be facing. The only thing worse than a world war would be a religious war between the muslims and the Judeo-Christians.

And to think we went 225 years without being the aggressor in a single war. All it takes is one bad election.

"Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all of the others."
Winston Churchill

[dickieC]

Re: cynicism about oil.

One small correction about Afghanistan - Hamed Karzai was always opposed to the Taliban - that's why he's now President of Afghanistan. Agreed on your points re: need for pipeline to flow via allies, and desire to keep BP and Gazprom out of the Caucausus.

Russia still has the potential to become undemocratic again. Personally I sense a Weimar republic kind of thing. Putin has had no scruples in suppressing the media, or Chechnya...

[masterofNone]

Who are our allies anyway?

seems to me we're burning a bridge for every day Bush is in office

[amanda]

A bridge?

More than just one.

He seems to be doing one hell of a destruction job over here as well- Japan, South Korea and China ALL have had a legitmate curse word or two towards Bush Jr. about his actions since he's taken office.

I won't even mention North Korea.

Thank you for the "axis of evil" there, Georgie. You might as well have just painted a target on my forehead.

[Frieda]

the original post scared me quite a bit.. i can't believe some of you didn't know this.. is it really true that the american newspapers or television stations don't mention these things? i mean, :eek:

[amanda]

I'll tell you something Frieda, as an American living outside of the reach of the Three Stooges (Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings, Dan Rather) and USA Today- I feel like I'm more informed on international issues- particularly ones that make America unpopular among the rest of the world (which is becoming quite alot these days)- than I did while I was living in the U.S.

But as far as American ATTITUDES about our position in the world and what we hear about our own actions- I still go to American news websites. It's always interesting to me to see what we chose to listen about ourselves in contrast as to what else is going on in the world.

And there IS a contrast- sometimes to the point of changing the story entirely.

We are, quite possibly, one of only two countries I know of that has such an elaborate PR-like media structure used primary on its own people- or needs one.

The other country, you may ask?
China.

[masterofNone]

is it really true that the american newspapers or television stations don't mention these things?

You see things like this in the op-ed section sometimes... And they are shouted down by the conservatives with taunts and derision. The conservatives have won a great coup by convincing the media that they can't oppose conservatives without being branded with the "liberal media" moniker. The result is that the media in America is now almost entirely conservative in its coverage. The irony is, I think most of the media IS liberal... but they're afraid to step out of line and be branded. Liberal has become tantemount to Un-American.

[amanda]

I saw an fairly brave interview of one of the said Stooges- Dan Rather- on BBC a few months ago.

He basically said the same thing MoN just said- that journalists are scared to be labeled "un-patriotic" if criticism is directed in the direction of the people in the leadership roles. Now is not the time for dissidence, but rallying around the cause and fight for what's right.

The only thing is- what is right? And who gets to ask that question? Normally, the media is allowed (and expected) to hold leaders accountable to that question- until now.

In this way, terrorists continue to win. We have psyched ourselves out our freedom of press. Time will tell if this is a permanent condition.

[dickieC]

It seems pretty long-lasting to me - it's a function, in part, of having the head of state and the head of government combined. Can't criticise Mr. President because he's commander in chief.

It's curious, being better informed (it would seem) than the general American population makes me less scared that a war to remove Saddam Hussein would be a bad thing. Lefties in the UK seem to be acting all inconsistent. George Galloway MP (a nutter who has campaigned long and hard against sanctions on Iraq because they affect the Iraqi population and not the regime) spoke at a meeting of the Oxford Union debating society about a year ago, castigating Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe and calling for enforced sanctions and intervention by the western powers. Yet the pacifist left is saying that we shouldn't go to war against Iraq to end a thoroughly brutal dictatorship. I absolutely agree that the reason why W. and his cronies want to make war now is because they are in the pocket of the oil companies. But I believe lefties, or what Americans call Liberals, should campaign both for an end to the Iraqi regime and for Bush to implement the Kyoto protocol on cutting emissions. The heart of the problem are the SUV's and the American public refusal to pay for gas at anything like the prices we pay in Europe (because of environmental taxes, something like 80% of the price of petrol in the UK is fuel excise duty for the government).

[masterofNone]

Here's some light reading... I don't vouch for the conclusions drawn (tho I have my suspicions) but many of the facts are verifiable as a matter of public record.

http://www.networkideas.org/news/feb2002/news28_enron%20_cheney_taliban1.htm

http://www.fro.at/sendungen/islam/Enron.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1336960.stm

Biggest industry donators to Bush campaign
Enron $1.8m
Exxon $1.2m
Koch Industries $970,000
Southern $900,000
BP Amoco $800,000
El Paso Energy $787,000
Chevron Oil Corp $780,000
Reliant Energy $642,000
Texas Utilities $635,000

[Red Princess]

of course it is about oil and money, George W does not give a damn about the Iraqi people being oppressed. I choose to believe, although i may be worng , that the American people are not believing all the rhetoric in the press, we are notoriously sceptical of anything politicians have to say and the level of hysteria leads me to think that the Bush administration knows we are not going for it, so they keep upping the ante. I am also suspicious that George is just the mouthpiece (who needs to rehearse more) and the real sneaky bastard is Dick Cheney

[Red Princess]

then there is still hope that a catastophe will be averted, I have the White House email address in my address book and email them almost every week and tell them 'no war, i don't believe you'. I keep expecting the thought police to come knock on my door and call me unpatriotic names, or worse.

[zenbabe]

K, this is my first viewing of this thread. Peg, are you seriously trying to say that you never heard that this whole Iraq thing is about oil? Lets take a look at where good ol dubya is from, where his family is from and where all his good buddies are from. do you really think we can justify war on the fact that they found some empty warheads, that by the way have a firing distance of 6 miles. Not only that, they have one old russian ship that will probably break down. Not exactly a threat. This thing is screaming oil. You know what else really sux? They have had fuel cell technology for years that would eliminate the need for such massive amounts of oil for said SUV's and such, they just wont use it because it would shut down factories that make the parts we use now that suck down all that lovely oil, and not only that, those "oil people" would loose a fortune........anyone else see dollar signs in dubya's eyes?

[dickieC]

Just by way of gossip, The World Is Not Enough is on telly here tonight, the one where Bond saves the Baku oil wells from the baddies.

dC

[zenbabe]

Has anyone else heard the rumor that we are going to attack Iraq on monday?

[Red Princess]

i hope very much that you are kidding

[Red Princess]

Zemonkeys could generate a lot of negative email to the Whitehouse about it, if they were so inclined

[masterofNone]

The White house is already pretty set in their ways.

There are other targets of opportunity for emails that would be more effective. For example...

The op-ed pages of every newspaper.

Every Democratic congressman with a not so veiled threat laying out creative and effective methods to assure they don't get re-elected if they don't speak out against the war.

I mean, you've got to aim at someone who has power and has not already sold their soul.

[Red Princess]

i am such a cynic, my first thought was someone is power who hasn't sold their soul, who could that be? sorry bad day, you are absolutely right

[masterofNone]

hmmmm

[Red Princess]

If you do it MoN , I will sign

[masterofNone]

No sense re-inventing the wheel....


http://www.votenowar.org/

http://www.noiraqattack.org/

http://www.moveon.org/nowar/

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/


get active.

[amanda]

Originally posted by masterofNone
The White house is already pretty set in their ways.

There are other targets of opportunity for emails that would be more effective. For example...

The op-ed pages of every newspaper.

Every Democratic congressman with a not so veiled threat laying out creative and effective methods to assure they don't get re-elected if they don't speak out against the war.

I mean, you've got to aim at someone who has power and has not already sold their soul.

:applauding:
you are absolutely right, mon.

All the peace protests, cardboard effigies, and flag burning in the world are not going to change the minds of those who are waltzing down the money trail, which zenbabe and Mon have kindly laid out for us.

BUT, the power through estblished mediums- op-eds, politicians in power RIGHT NOW, businesses with the money RIGHT NOW, the press as it is AT THIS MOMENT are our only avenues for change.

We are playing an international game of chess, boys and girls. It's a game that we will lose if we continue with our current strategies.

What are we gonna do about it?

[zenbabe]

IMPEACH!!

[amanda]

On what grounds?

That he's a moron?

[zenbabe]

Here Here! Throw in lack of evidence and no grounds for a war except personal gain.

[masterofNone]

yeah, well if you can get impeached for getting a hummer in the oval office, you should get impeached for leading America into an unethical war.

[Madmack]

Idiocy is not ground for impeachment...
I think fellatio is though...

Seriously though,the interesting part is that the administration's approval rating is still high...
Who exactly are these 'folks' that are polled to make up the rating..?

[zenbabe]

Texan's

[zenbabe]

*sniff* (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030121/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_military_17)

:(

[Madmack]

It's true...

[masterofNone]

The only thing keeping me sane these days is watching the approval rating drop. From 62% to 57% in the last month.


5%... I'll take 5%.

[zenbabe]

"Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment."
—Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001

[Frieda]

i think the biggest problem is that there's almost nothing the american people can do about this whole situation. this is what al quaeda says too, if you don't want a war and don't agree with what your government does, stand up against your government. the problem is, that you try, but it isn't working, because no one will listen, the plans have already been made. the opinion of the people of america doesn't matter anymore. one man's in charge, not the people. shouldn't be like that in a democracy..

[Panda]

indeed,

i cant remember who said this but is it true that america also has huge reserves of tapped and untapped oil, but are just waiting until the middle eastern wells dry up?
thus having the monopoly on the market.

or is this just more conspiracy theory fuel without any factual base?

[amanda]

We do.

They are called "Columbia", "Venezuela" and "Arctic Wildlife National Refuge".

And guess where we just sent more troops to help protect a pipeline?

[masterofNone]

The thing we often ignore is that while we get something like 70% of our oil from North America... only about 20% of our oil comes from the Mid East in any case... American corporations make a great deal more than that selling the oil to the rest of the world. So while the administration would like to sell us on the idea that our national security interests are involved in Mid East oil.... it's really American Oil Companies' interests that we're talking about. We could get by with what we have here by tightening our belts and being more efficient... but if the oil companies lost their profits selling mid east oil, who would contribute to the campaign funds?

[Madmack]

Hmm.. I wonder...

http://www.trekshare.com/viewimage.cfm?jimageid=21817&page=1

[noxxville]

So I've been reading all of this and I guess I'm just a little more jaded than most.

It's not just Dubya that's gone horribly wrong, let's not give him that much credit, it's the people in power around him that stand by as well.

I'm also not at all suprised by any of this. I've had this theory going for awhile that any person of power or influence that admantly pushes for any one thing (i.e. war, health care reform, etc) is doing so largely for reasons that they do not want you to know about.

It takes a certain kind of person to want that much power that badly.

[masterofNone]

If you're happy and you know it, bomb Iraq
By John Robbins

If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.

If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq
If we think that someone's dissed us, bomb Iraq
So to hell with the inspections,
Let's look tough for the elections; close your mind and take directions;
Bomb Iraq.

Its preemptive nonaggression, bomb Iraq
to prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq
They've got weapons we can't see,
and that's all the proof we need.
If they're not there, they must be there.
Bomb Iraq.

If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
With the weapons that he had,
And he tried to kill your Dad,
Bomb Iraq.

If corporate fraud is growing, bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And your manhood's getting queasy,
Bomb Iraq.

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We'll call it treason,
Lets make war, not love this season
even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.

[StarsFireFly]

There's no reason for war...

Hmmm... this sounds familiar...
A bit too familiar...

Diplomacy is the key! Not war!

That, too... where have I heard this before?

Oh yes, it is the echos of the Western world in the thirties... right before the second world war.
I see the same patterns repeating themselves. A megalomaniac with a bad attitude. In this case, he even has a host of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons in his arsenal. And then you have Europe. Let's be friends... he won't really do anything bad. But, the truth is, he will. Saddam Hussein is a threat to mankind. He is incredibly smart, hard to catch, and a mass murderer. He has kille dthousands of people, raped thousands of women...

Bush is not simply trying to further himself, make more money. If he did, then he would have given up on Iraq looong ago. Bush just doesn't want to watch the world crumbling at the feet of a madman who wishes to kill pretty much every living thing in sight.
If you wish to die a slow, painful death from poison bombs or experience radiation, then maybe you should be like Sean Penn and tell that to Hussein. Although, considering you're American, he'd probably shoot you on the spot.

But hey, that's me! I'd rather not die. So I like Bush. He's a good man, and a good President (especially 'cause he ISN'T a liberal).

[masterofNone]

yeah because we all have watched Iraq annex Austria, invade Poland, conquer France and begin to threaten Great Britain.... Just like Nazi Germany.

Please. Saddam ain't Hitler. Saddam ain't even Castro.We live with Castro's Cuba 30 minutes from the US mainland by boat. There are a lot of bad guys in the world who we actually support. But we loves our SUVs so we're going to war.

I am a LIBERAL. And I'm loud and proud.

p.s. oh yeah, in 2004 we're going to take back what the GOP stole in 2002. Make book on it.

[noxxville]

amen.

[masterofNone]

Actually I'm not opposed to the GOP per se. Before the 2002 election I was best described as an independent and a centrist. But the abuse of the election process, the handling of civil liberties post 9/11, and the surreal shifting of blame from Al Queda to Iraq over the past 6 months has been proof to me that this administration is prosecuting it's own agenda. Their tactics of secrecy, bullying, and arrogance in achieving their goals domestically and internationally have made America more of a target not less.

You can see it on the faces of the best and brightest in the administration. Colin and Condi look more stressed everyday. I would bet one of them will step down before the year is out.

It will be interesting to see the protests develop. They'll be very different from the 1960s protests because there won't be the young hippy/drug culture stereotyping going on. Today's protesters will be of all ages and incomes. And the lesson was learned long ago to protest against the war not the soldiers.

America, love it or get loud.