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craig johnston
12-08-2007, 06:20 PM
I recently read a piece (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6057734.stm) on the BBC about predictions made by evolutionary theorist Oliver Curry of the London School of Economics. Among his forecasts was that:

'Social skills, such as communicating and interacting with others, could be lost, along with emotions such as love, sympathy, trust and respect. People would become less able to care for others, or perform in teams.'

Although it's all conjecture, I must admit that I had never considered the possiblity that love might die. Could that ever happen?

:(

brightpearl
12-08-2007, 06:47 PM
I remain unconvinced that love exists in the first place. I'm pretty sure friendship does, and compassion, and I don't think those will die as long as there are people. Or even dogs.

But that movie kind of love...dunno that I've ever seen it off the screen, so perhaps whether it can die is moot.

zero
12-08-2007, 07:20 PM
a piece (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6057734.stm) on the BBC

every time they cover a drivelly bit of "research" by some "theorist" and illustrate it with an idiotic picture, my love of the bbc dies a little





ETA: this belongs here
http://img.youtube.com/vi/iPyp92pExAg/default.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPyp92pExAg)
--->end^

auntie aubrey
12-08-2007, 09:00 PM
I remain unconvinced that love exists in the first place.

it does. i keep it stored in a klein bottle in my pantry next to the balsamic vinegar.

brightpearl
12-08-2007, 09:27 PM
^that explains why it frequently leaves a sour taste.
:o

Okay, I'm going to stay out of this thread now, lest I sully the atmosphere unnecessarily. :D

And let me say again that I'm as near certain as I can be that compassion is alive and as eternal as consciousness. Maybe more so.

Hyakujo's Fox
12-08-2007, 10:19 PM
every time they cover a drivelly bit of "research" by some "theorist" and illustrate it with an idiotic picture, my love of the bbc dies a little

Debunking The Commercial Press and Why Scientists Hate to Talk to the Media (http://www.physorg.com/news112884130.html)

Wish it was exceptional, but the fact they don't even bother to retract the story after it's been widely debunked tells how much of a damn the popular media gives about accurate science reporting.


Although it's all conjecture, I must admit that I had never considered the possiblity that love might die. Could that ever happen?

:(

Would it matter to us if it did?

brightpearl
12-08-2007, 10:26 PM
^good heavens, you're worse than I am! :D

T.I.P.
12-08-2007, 11:02 PM
who cares about love ??

let's just make out..

brightpearl
12-08-2007, 11:09 PM
Now that I can understand.
:D

auntie aubrey
12-09-2007, 12:03 AM
what's love got to do got to do with it? what's love but a sweet old fashioned notion? what's love got to do got to do with it? who needs a heart when a heard can be broken?

auntie aubrey
12-09-2007, 12:04 AM
also, i'm your private dancer.

Anna
12-09-2007, 04:10 AM
love will never die because there aren't enough drugs to kill it!
and I am glad of that.

Stephi_B
12-09-2007, 07:40 AM
^Yo, Anna!! :)



1. Without having read the article (more or less scientific findings sold to the press about matters like human's love, sex, happiness, spirituality tend to be even more proving the scientist's opinion by findings than usually the case ;)) or it's debunking (ya well, predicting future evolution of humans when one considers the timescale on which this took place in the past...):

Nope, unless the way humans tick and the things humans need change(s) fundamentally (and this hasn't really since the first Homo sapiens sapiens hung out there in Africa ca. 100,000 years ago), that is that they stop being social animals (even in the cyberspace people tend to gather in tribes around some campfire like Zefrank.com for example) and the whole reproduction and raising of small humans becomes artificial and automated (i.e. no longer conducted by some sort of family - family used very loosely, that is not how conservatives define it ;) - or groups of grownups, elder children).



2. Love

What irritates me a bit, just like when I asked for romantic events in the q-thread, is that most of you associate immediately the boy-meets-girl thing, particularly in it's more or less idealized and/or distorted representation in Hollywood, advertisement, media (well and even before the modern age literature, poems, songs did that - minnesingers, Song of Solomon, etc.). For lack of a better term I call that 'romantic love' and - I quote my granny now - that's basically sex, sexual attraction, sexual desire and that gradually wears off between one and the same two people over the years (though it doesn't necessarily vanish, it's great to sometimes see my grandparents - married since 52 years - flirting like teenagers or smooching - when I enter a room too quietly that is). But there's so many other manifestations of love: between (grand)parents and (grand)children, between siblings, between close friends, ... Dunno, if you agree with me but I'd say that the essence of love is:

giving (everything), without expecting (anything) (though in cases of mutual love you of course get something back, but unconditional which is one of the best features of love, so sentences like "If you love me, then (do this and that)." are not sign of true love - I quote again my granny, ya she's my guru :D - but a kind of blackmail)

and

sharing, sometimes even living through together, another person's feelings - good or bad (but not just saying "Oh, I feel so glad/sorry for you" like we often do even with loose friends/aquaintances).


Don't think love will vanish, see above, it's part of our way of living as humans - even if it causes grief at times if unfullfilled/one-sided, dies off towards somebody, drifts into bondage, self-torture and so on.

craig johnston
12-09-2007, 09:39 AM
good points stephi, but we are living in a world unlike anything that has existed before and are therefore questioning things we have never questioned.

the article isn't really the point. it was just the place where i first encountered the concept that love could ever die. Since then I have had a number of discussions with people who had a very pessimistic view.

pearly, you obviously love your nipper deeply and unconditionally.

;)

brightpearl
12-09-2007, 11:19 AM
^Yes, so much so that it is beyond any ordinary definition of love as I think of it. It's beyond any kind of concept. I can't imagine anyone ever seriously believing that kind of interrelatedness could die. There are plenty of studies showing that babies, human or other primate, do not develop normally without adequate parental love and interaction even when their nutritional needs are met -- think of the children who have attachment disorder from living in overfilled orphanages, or the little monkeys in the wire mama/cloth mama studies.

There's simply no way for people to continue as a species without that experience of bonding and shared consciousness.

But as for romantic love, I don't know. It does not exist in some human societies the way we Westerners think of it (though legal marriage is a near cultural universal, it doesn't always include love or even like), and I think historians believe the idea is less that a thousand years old even among us. I'm not sure that it exists in our modern Western society either, though the dream of it does. If it's relatively recent as an idea, and if it is not a human universal, then yes, I think in theory it would be possible for it to die as an idea.

trisherina
12-09-2007, 01:06 PM
People think of love as something that happens to them, like lust or infatuation or obsession.

Love (regardless of "type") is an activity. Up to you as an individual whether it dies or not. You feel it dying, go out and do some. Just mind you stay within legal boundaries for the reciprocal part. :)

As for the journalism:

He carried out the report for men's satellite TV channel Bravo.

Funny how some get cautious when they see a double-blind placebo-controlled RCT carried out by a facility that gets funding from pharmaceutical companies, but they swallow stuff like this whole in the next breath.

topcat
12-09-2007, 03:03 PM
People think of love as something that happens to them, like lust or infatuation or obsession.







.

absolutly true. its called love at first site.

Anna
12-09-2007, 04:18 PM
But as for romantic love, I don't know. It does not exist in some human societies the way we Westerners think of it
I think we call that porn now ;)
There's simply no way for people to continue as a species without that experience of bonding and shared consciousness.

I think people would survive, but quality of life and expectancy would decline. I also think love is limited to a certain number of people in the course of a lifetime, real love requires a lot of participation, tons of understanding and forgiveness, and who has time for that?!

What craig's article is getting at in light of our disposable anonymous (except for the government) internet lifestyle: 'Social skills, such as communicating and interacting with others, could be lost, along with emotions such as love, sympathy, trust and respect...' It's so easy online to walk away and never be seen again and with modern tech we can skip all that needless how-are-the-kids-get-to-know-you human interaction, except for the tech guy. The big lie was all this would make our lives easier and less complicated so we would have more time for our friends and family. On the upside, like everything else in life it's how we use it. The masses are never ready or prepared for anything new or revolutionary. Choosing to be a trailblazer in the world of technology is to lead a pretty isolated and lonely life. The struggle is and probably always has been balance.

auntie aubrey
12-09-2007, 06:02 PM
you jaded "ain't no such thing as love" types are bumming me out.

there is such a thing. i can't argue you into believing that, though.

Hyakujo's Fox
12-09-2007, 08:35 PM
But as for romantic love, I don't know. It does not exist in some human societies the way we Westerners think of it

Yeah, I don't buy this. Arranged marriage based societies just have a strong interest in dismissing romantic love as a real phenomenon, but that don't make it so. In fact if it wasn't for romantic love, it would hardly seem necessary to have a system of strictly arranged marriages at all, since children wouldn't be strongly drawn to potentially socially or economically 'inappropriate' marriages.

auntie aubrey
12-09-2007, 10:17 PM
it's just plain silly to think we're going to be able to take a quick glance at current social trends, extrapolate them out way into the future, and project massive consequences for our concept of life as we know it.

personally i think we're done evolving. maybe if grocery stores start stocking the veggies up on really high shelves, the tall and the long-armed will thrive while the short and stubby-armed will starve and eventually die off. then we'd see some progress.

but as it is, the tall people and the short people are breeding. the thin people and the fat people are breeding. diabetics have kids. midgets marry and have families. people with bipolar disorder, clinginess, bad breath, sexual addiction, obsessive compulsive disorder, chronic bad hair, misguided fashion sense, and unibrows are breeding and passing on their personal qualities.

at what point is evolution able to get a word in edgewise?

topcat
12-10-2007, 01:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L--WvesoCf0

Frieda
12-10-2007, 05:10 AM
it's just plain silly to think we're going to be able to take a quick glance at current social trends, extrapolate them out way into the future, and project massive consequences for our concept of life as we know it.

personally i think we're done evolving. maybe if grocery stores start stocking the veggies up on really high shelves, the tall and the long-armed will thrive while the short and stubby-armed will starve and eventually die off. then we'd see some progress.

but as it is, the tall people and the short people are breeding. the thin people and the fat people are breeding. diabetics have kids. midgets marry and have families. people with bipolar disorder, clinginess, bad breath, sexual addiction, obsessive compulsive disorder, chronic bad hair, misguided fashion sense, and unibrows are breeding and passing on their personal qualities.

at what point is evolution able to get a word in edgewise?

by regulating breeding by diseases that spread through breeding i guess.. STDs, AIDS, etc.

also, natural disasters still work pretty well since people are still living in areas with volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis and seas and oceans nearby that can flood. disasters like those make a pretty clever natural selection. and of course some people will eliminate themselves by getting their neckties stuck in the blender.. technology will definitely bite us in the ass.

not that it's fair, of course. but that wasn't the deal in the first place.

Stephi_B
12-10-2007, 07:45 AM
@ CJ:
What concerns the pure possibility that love (and any other 'higher' emotions/behaviour patterns connecting people like friendship, trust, ...) could die out: yes, they once entered our gene code (I think they are mainly genetical) so they could in theory leave it again, either by natural selection or by genetical engineering (as science fictiony that may sound that, say a totalitarian regime will breed kinda organic robots). But, although it's true that the last 200 and more radically the last 50 years technology and society changed hugely, our gene code so far has not. What I, in a shorter perspective, say in the next decades, or the next centuries see more likely is: people still can (want to) feel love etc., but it becomes harder for them to express as well to live them in a society living more and more online, anonymous, as singles or in short-term relationships, and accordingly already grow up without constant/good emotional feedback, lived examples of love. Also pure 'online love', is becoming normal, already among today's young people. So it can be that one day love no longer (necessarily) contains the notion of physical closeness (sexual or otherwise - to cuddle, live together) along soul-mateness.

@ Perla:
To what Hfox already said concerning societies with arranged or strongly regulated marriages, is that also in these societies the idea of romantic love exists (again: literature, poems, songs - maybe even celebrating couples which against the will of their parents/society fought for their love), and that long before love marriages existed in our culture (only 150 years ago btw, up to then at least in middle, upper and aristocratic classes, 'rational marriage' was the common thing) it was an ideal, which is understandable for it symbolises the perfect (in theory only of course ;)) unity of two people: body, mind, soul.
Yes, and just like in very 'modern' societies, it is quite common in 'primitive' societies that young people find to each other on their own (though taking place at some fair/ceremony, with ritualised fertility dances and the like where kids of an age group are brought together - yeah well we call that discos/clubs ;)). Of course, just like with us, it's sexual attraction (+sympathy of course) rather than the ideal romantic love that brings folks together.
But I don't see why, if love can exist between blood relatives and non-related friends, and even between member of different species (human&animal, cat&dog) why love should not exist between two people who happen to share bed (and table maybe). It's a more complicated thing cos such (primal) emotions like jealousy and possession thinking enter, particularly when the sex-part is (temporarily) 'outsourced' by one or both partners...

brightpearl
12-10-2007, 08:10 AM
Sorry to be a bummer, auntie. :o I'm very happy for your feeling that way yourself, of course.

I haven't meant to say I'm sure it doesn't exist; just that I don't know any more. I am still capable of feeling something like romantic love, and I know other people experience that feeling as well, but I'm not sure how that matches up in reality or what it means. Though I hope this isn't true for everyone, and though it has not always been true for me, my own real experience with romantic love has often been that it gets smaller over time -- more self-centered, less expansive, ownership may creep in. This has happened to me at the same time I've experienced other kinds of love, such as for my child, as continually and maybe infinitely expanding.

It's not that I don't still have a wish to find something that is like how I understand romantic love; I do. I now think of it as mostly about friendship, with physical attraction added on, and with a component of service to something larger. If that turned up, I would take it. (Warily. :o ) But I've lost my old faith that it's a phenomenon one can take for granted will occur. I've joked around here about being a nun, but it's actually something that's on the table for me as a possibility, later on. So take everything I say with a pound or two of rock salt. ;)

And one thing I know for sure...I love you guys. :) This is a good place to manifest happiness.

Stephi_B
12-10-2007, 12:40 PM
Finally read the above article, and indeed I have read it already when it came out in 06, but what took my full attention (irritation) was

People would become choosier about their sexual partners, causing humanity to divide into sub-species, he added.
The descendants of the genetic upper class would be tall, slim, healthy, attractive, intelligent, and creative and a far cry from the "underclass" humans who would have evolved into dim-witted, ugly, squat goblin-like creatures.

That beauty=intelligence / uglyness=dumbness part royally pissed me off, and still does.

brightpearl
12-10-2007, 01:23 PM
^ooooh, he must have been one of the monkeys in the wire mama group. :mad:

Stephi_B
12-10-2007, 01:43 PM
^barb wire mama ;)

brightpearl
12-10-2007, 01:49 PM
^We should pity him for the damage clearly done by a severe lack of boobs in his life.

Stephi_B
12-10-2007, 01:58 PM
^Oh, after he carried out the report he hopefully can watch the men's satellite TV channel he did it for for free.

lukkucairi
12-10-2007, 02:00 PM
^^^if you're denied boobs, do you grow up to become one?

(insert rimshot)

to paraphrase Spock, "it's love, Jim, but not as we know it."

I think it exists, but I think we've got the wrong idea of its purpose.

brightpearl
12-10-2007, 02:08 PM
Bones: "He's dead, Jim."

Just kidding. Lukku is wise in such matters. :)

Stephi_B
12-10-2007, 02:15 PM
^^Wow! Gotta meditate over the real purpose of love now... :)

topcat
12-10-2007, 06:34 PM
^^^

I think it exists, but I think we've got the wrong idea of its purpose.


what do you mean? you love people differently. i see my neighbors who have been married of 50 something years. you just look at them, see them interact and you know how much they are still in love.

lukkucairi
12-10-2007, 07:17 PM
why do you fall in love, tc?

auntie aubrey
12-10-2007, 09:28 PM
also, natural disasters still work pretty well since people are still living in areas with volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis and seas and oceans nearby that can flood. disasters like those make a pretty clever natural selection. and of course some people will eliminate themselves by getting their neckties stuck in the blender..


that's not evolution, that's just accidental death. evolution would be if there were people who mutated to form a resistance to lava, and people who lived at the base of volcanoes who didn't have that mutation died off, leaving the ones with the mutation to breed and pass that mutation on.

or like blender-resistant faces.

auntie aubrey
12-10-2007, 09:34 PM
also that dude's got it wrong. i've got a big ol' butt sir mix-a-lot would love, but i'm as smart as a whip. or is it a tack? maybe if i were smarter i would know.

also the spouse is 6'3". we're going to breed tall, fat, smart kids. AND EVOLUTION WILL EFFIN' LIKE IT.

Avalon
12-10-2007, 09:35 PM
why do you fall in love, tc?
Because he can and because I am already married.

HAHAHAAA...thought you would like that one, T. :p

ETA..the original question is beyond stupid...I hope that 'Ollie' is single or his arranged wife makes him lust after, then fall in love with a 300 pound green midget of questionable social status who then rejects him as unworthy.

topcat
12-10-2007, 11:10 PM
why do you fall in love, tc?

yes i do.
i met a girl last winter in a bar in new haven.she was from seattle.she was also leaving the next day to go back to seattle. so after about an hour she was in my arms and i never felt better like she was made to fit next to me. her name was cara, and i told her that i loved her. never saw her again. never got her phone number. she didnt know when she was coming back. but i told her i would see her again.

Anna
12-11-2007, 01:13 AM
Reading the comments and in no particular order.

Evolution Natural Selection - Evolution will never end. Take into account the dominant species man, and his intervention into evolution: stem cell research, the eradication of disease and deformities, breeding a superior race. Itís all in the literature.

Love Ė you can subscribe to Platoís love, eros, philia, agape: passion, friendship, divine love or love of all things, but he does compartmentalizes.
Attraction is bio-chemical and these guys,http://www.iupac.org/images/ci/2005CI/2704/mad_scientist.jpg , look like this for a reason. Itís natureís way of an introduction. We are physically bound to that. Fantasies alone are worth billions in revenue.

Historically, love has meant and been many thing depending on the culture, but we are headed towards a one world blended species, with marginal differences. Never has that been more possible in the history of humankind than now, well in the near future, comparatively.

Love or acts of love can be what ever you want them to be; s/he takes out the garbage, sends you an anniversary hallmark card, flies you to Paris for dinner, indulges your fetish, tolerates your outbursts, raises your children or is there though thick and thin for the next 50 years. You can become a protector of the home, work in the streets helping the poor, devote your life praising God, or work towards world peace. I think love can be many things, but most of all it is the intent behind the action that matters most.

According to the article thatís going to change because we are isolating ourselves from chance meetings, the daily interactions, the physical presence as witness, understanding the intent; which in the past was forced upon us due to limits in communication. We know the mind online, but we do not experience the heart, warmth and understanding in the same way, we will have to learn to compensate develop new skills.

Can a mind really love a mind void of body thousands of miles away for any length of time? Can we love the dead? Without experiencing life as physical people, eyeball to eyeball, something deeper beyond passing friendships will always be missing. Of course we will adjust, but the question that is asked most, what are we giving up in exchange? Iím not saying there isnít any value in this medium and the opportunities it provides, what I think the article hints at on a mass scale is, itís a brave new world. Gum?

lukkucairi
12-11-2007, 02:16 AM
Can a mind really love a mind void of body thousands of miles away for any length of time? Can we love the dead?

1) yes, and have been doing so since time immemorial. people in my family have done this many recorded times in the past 80 years - with only the old fashioned postal service as connection.

2) yes. emphatically so. read the obituaries.

I think we're in a corridor. virtual tech will not always be text-based. even on a simple board, a lot of nuances come through.

plus, we adapt. and there's a continuing and compelling reason to fall in love. I don't think her name is cara :p

Anna
12-11-2007, 01:21 PM
You've introduced something new into the conversation that the author didn't address, outside a test tube, family. There are years of former physical, eye ball to eye ball, interaction prior to USPS and death that connect and bond, much more than nuances, but if you want to toss the breakdown of the accepted family unit into the mix and where that is headed, I'm game.

cara is poetry, an old drug that is better than drink, but could drive you to it.

lukkucairi
12-11-2007, 02:55 PM
people used to fall in love via snail mail all the time...

you can talk about family or not talk about family - mine has a history of letter writing is all.

if I'm engaging in this argument, it's to state my belief that the "requisite skills" have been around for a far longer time than the internet.

while I'm at it: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41849000/jpg/_41849662_sydney_416_getty.jpg
where are we going?

brightpearl
12-11-2007, 03:02 PM
Dunno.
I drove home yesterday in the strangest, thickest late afternoon fog I've ever seen. I pulled over when I got to the ridge, and stood on the edge to look out into an absolute ocean of nothing. You couldn't see the trees just a bit down the slope, and there was not even the faintest hint of the usual infinite, hilled vista. Beautiful, and utterly, hopelessly unfathomable. No way of knowing what lay ahead. It was even silent, and oddly, I guess because of the topography, it was raining only right at the edge of the dropoff, in huge but infrequent drips. I knew even at that moment that for me, it was a metaphor for this thread.

Lukku mindmelds me all the time, so I shouldn't be surprised. :D

craig johnston
12-11-2007, 03:34 PM
huge but infrequent drips

you mean like roez?

;)

Frieda
12-11-2007, 06:21 PM
that's not evolution, that's just accidental death. evolution would be if there were people who mutated to form a resistance to lava, and people who lived at the base of volcanoes who didn't have that mutation died off, leaving the ones with the mutation to breed and pass that mutation on.

or like blender-resistant faces.
i think evolution will make us extinct. i dont think mankind is as good for nature as mankind thinks it is.

and i dont deserve to be here either with my fwked genes. but i'm here, so i make the best of it and have a blast.. but evolution-wise.. no. definitely not.


but we were talking about love, right? no, it will not die.. not as long as i live, anyway :)

lukkucairi
12-11-2007, 08:29 PM
i think evolution will make us extinct.

adapt or die - either way are we still human?

sorry, I'm digressing.

but I restate: no, love won't die. it's a fundamental force in this neck of the woods.

brightpearl
12-11-2007, 10:17 PM
M'kay, since things always come in pairs... Who thinks it'd be possible for hate to die?

That'd be nice.

Anna
12-11-2007, 10:18 PM
maybe we have to start over and define what Craig means by, will love ever die?

What is love?

is it this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi_BFenXRZ8

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QfEiDO9opg

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojpbOJjrGBQ

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvOQHZAL3ug

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxm0PDv9Fc0

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF3SBrLrgmE

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyAf45bCRE

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUoEil40qZA

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEh5pWjcWCg

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxPcmi1U25g

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8_Sn8m1AKI

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrSs7gfLDjc

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaS1FmkYFh4

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UkIkwy5ZM

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL2YflVxICE

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rkwqF648tk

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtqaqeWgkBU

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxscKtlGL70

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA5AQzzdzNk

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrjX0lmXJTs

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydKK54_VXbo

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tcn49zHLt0

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzzIuxy_0EQ

this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou0VpBU3y7k

or..?

I had way too much help with this and love needs its own thread ;)

auntie aubrey
12-11-2007, 11:37 PM
M'kay, since things always come in pairs... Who thinks it'd be possible for hate to die?

That'd be nice.

not a chance. the good and the bad will remain. if we could eliminate either, we wouldn't be human anymore.

maybe that's the answer. if we ever evolve to the point where love is no longer possible, we will no longer be human. therefore humans will never evolve to the point that they can no longer love. the transformation to the "other" will have to happen prior to that moment.

ipso fatso.

Hyakujo's Fox
12-12-2007, 02:26 AM
from an evolutionary point of view, you lose something when it ceases to help you creating descendants. like those fish that took to living in caves and lost their ability to see, we would lose our ability to love if it ceases to help us. if we no longer had any dealings with our own children, the ability to love them would be redundant, and be lost. if romantic love ceases to lead to reproductive unions, it would also become redundant, and be lost.

if evolution is going to continue, people are going to have to get out there and have kids, so rather than adapting us to the social isolation offered by technology, selection could well favour those who can best resist it. evolution might just as well lead to people having far stronger desires toward physical social interaction. if birth control remains universally available, the sex drive might become weaker, as having lots of sex doesn't lead to having lots of children anymore, but the desire to actually have children might become stronger.

anyway it all depends on what's going to happen. these days i'm not entirely convinced technological civilisation is here for the long term anyway.

lukkucairi
12-12-2007, 01:40 PM
this. this one is love. DEFINITELY. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEh5pWjcWCg)

β cyg
12-12-2007, 03:45 PM
blablablaaa blablablaaa (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6057734.stm) on the BBC .....ary theorist blablaaaa commi.... nating and blablablabla... ...blaaaaah. Could that ever happen? no.

Anna
12-13-2007, 06:52 AM
from an evolutionary point of view, you lose something when it ceases to help you creating descendants. like those fish that took to living in caves and lost their ability to see, we would lose our ability to love if it ceases to help us.

http://www.aquariumfish.net/images_01/blind_cave_fish.jpg
actually the ghost fish or pinkie fish, when put back into the light will grow eyes. So once developed thereís always something at rest waiting buried deep in the memory of our DNA waiting for the right switch.

Regardless, of what the naysayers have in store I donít think technology will destroy the whole of humanity, love or the earth. The greatest impact will be on our quality of life. Humans are remarkable at two things: adapting to situations and eliminating waste. The fact, at this late date, we are still at war around the world and have little care is a testament to that. We have and will forever stand on the razors edge when it comes to technology. The article predicts an H.G. Wells future scenario of a subterranean working race, and a complacent race that is meant for breeding and eating. Wells has been rather accurate in many of his predictions, but even in this story there seems to be a ray of hope in the end. Unless the earth is split in two by some strange unforeseen universal collision or all of humanity commits mass suicide at once human life will go on adapting and eliminating until the sun dies. Survival as a species is programmed in our DNA and will be difficult if not impossible to turn off or eliminate completely and probably why nature keeps teenagers in love stupid and necessary.

lukkucairi
12-14-2007, 04:39 AM
Love will never die.

It's stubborn like that.

weedkiller?

brightpearl
12-14-2007, 07:49 AM
^No thanks, just some tiny pruning shears.
http://www.bonsaigardener.org/bonsai-articles/uploads/bonsai-stress.jpg

Anna
12-15-2007, 02:36 AM
will hate ever die?

trisherina
12-15-2007, 03:32 AM
**** no!

Stephi_B
12-15-2007, 02:46 PM
Read an article which sort of also had the future of love as topic, there isn't yet an English translation online, only the photo gallery (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,27272,00.html) which contains some of the statements made as captions. The main statement: Love will not die but both humans might prefer to love / have sex with hightech robots in the future - now, I dunno, sounds a bit unlikely to me... What do you think?

lukkucairi
12-15-2007, 08:12 PM
ever read any of Asimov's caves of steel series?

he had some interesting speculations on the logical outcome of technological isolation.

Anna
12-16-2007, 05:09 PM
Read an article which sort of also had the future of love as topic, there isn't yet an English translation online, only the photo gallery which contains some of the statements made as captions. The main statement: Love will not die but both humans might prefer to love / have sex with hightech robots in the future - now, I dunno, sounds a bit unlikely to me... What do you think?

Isolation combined with narcissism and selfishness, yeah Androids will be big! Just think of all the people without partners, workaholics, handicapped, obese, frightened, deformed, and a whole host of other human foibles and fetishes. Itís the path of least resistance. People are already talking to their computers like they were cars. Even in their perfectly programmed imperfections robots will be too hard to resist. Youíll be donating and downloading your thoughts and ideas, gestures and clever little quips to robot banks for others to program, thus creating the perfect companion. People will start clubs and memberís only web sites, little cliques. Few disappointments, fewer divorce suits, but there will be resistance and out of that will come a new church, the church of the synthetic. People will argue, "How can something man made created out of mineral matter have a soul?" Others will dispute, "God created everything therefore robots are part of the plan." Some will ask, "Where in the bible did God mention inanimate objects?" and the reply will come, "In the beginning when God drove Adam and Eve out in a Fury! ;)

If you build it they will come and the human drive for sex and acceptance has always been a very commanding and profitable force, there's no stopping progress, where would the Internet be today be without it?

brightpearl
12-16-2007, 08:07 PM
Am I the only person who worries about androids strangling us in our sleep? Really?

craig johnston
12-16-2007, 08:26 PM
i met this robotics expert in a bar the other day and he expounded the theory that, as we are, in fact, merely a combination of chemical reactions, there is no actual difference between robots and ourselves.
so i bought him a drink and we discussed whether a robot could ever enjoy a pint of beer.

auntie aubrey
12-16-2007, 09:45 PM
Am I the only person who worries about androids strangling us in our sleep? Really?

i'm more worried about electro-gonorrhea: the noisy killer.

DON'T DATE ROBOTS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uHD3RnRmZE)

trisherina
12-17-2007, 01:14 AM
If you build it they will come and the human drive for sex and acceptance has always been a very commanding and profitable force, there's no stopping progress, where would the Internet be today be without it?

Hey, where would Polaroids and video cameras have been without the sex drive? We owe it a lot.

Stephi_B
12-17-2007, 07:59 AM
@ Lukku: Gotta read that! (Asimov is unfortunately still a black spot in my scifi collection)

@ Anna: Now that all sounds not that unlikely anymore...

Mmh, suppose I'll have to move then to the colony of renegades on Jupiter moon Callista (first colonised by Ally McBeal fans, therefore the name, but these first inhabitants died of some disease).
Callista - where nabis (naturally grown and 100% biological humanoid lifeforms) still shag with and love other nabis (and if it's threeheaded Mars sheep... they ARE more or less humanoid don't let somebody tell you otherwise!!); Callista - famous for the most violent pub brawls in the solar system and the hyper-hallucinogen fungi which only grow there and their (illegal outside Callista - but who cares) selling is the main economic branch; Callista - where one of the inhabitants most beloved hobbies is shooting down the space-cruisers of unwished guests (Avon, Yehova's Witnesses, Lovebotics Interplanetary, the dudes who wanna read the heating, warm water and electricity meters, ...) before they can go on orbit (if you shoot one cruiser from orbit you only get 5 points, above orbit it's 20).

;)


we discussed whether a robot could ever enjoy a pint of beer.


:D

(No but an advanced robot could mimic it perfectly, just like having an orgasm, loving somebody etc.)

Hyakujo's Fox
12-17-2007, 09:03 AM
we discussed whether a robot could ever enjoy a pint of beer.

not if it's warm it couldn't.


(No but an advanced robot could mimic it perfectly, just like having an orgasm, loving somebody etc.)

yes, and the robot could be programmed to not know he wasn't really enjoying it.

Stephi_B
12-17-2007, 09:12 AM
^You are into programming very realistic androids (not this dense sex toys, but bots with real bad mood, soul and all that stuff) - admit it! You should consider a British version though (fiddle a bit on the beer-thermosensor and the culinary software and it should work more or less)

Hyakujo's Fox
12-17-2007, 09:22 AM
We found the chip butties would keep clogging up the hydraulics.

Stephi_B
12-17-2007, 09:45 AM
Shit, well let's ship the Brits up to Callista, I heard somewhere out in the wildest parts of Outthereinthevoid, a day's travel north of Loch Mud there's a place where they even serve warm beer - and the greasiest fish n' chips imaginable (for it is said that combination would be the only cure against the hopping disease that's widespread out there...dunno I for my part would rather hop myself to death ;)).

Marcus Bales
12-17-2007, 10:44 AM
Interesting thing about machines is that we expect that they'll do exactly as they're told every single time, barring mistakes in programming; so unless the robots are programmed to fall in love they will not -- right? Or are you imagining robots (and maybe other machines) that can say "No."? Bartleby the Computer. What would you do with a computer that could say to some command "I prefer not to"?

Stephi_B
12-17-2007, 11:03 AM
^Just think of HAL 9000, why should artificial intelligence from a certain level on not become independent? I mean they are working on self-learning algorithms, so - all is open I'd say.


What would you do with a computer that could say to some command "I prefer not to"?


Mine (theo26, imo definitely male) does, quite often and less polite (OK, mostly it's my fault asking him the wrong thing or in the wrong way ;)) - have to restrain myself sometimes not to throw him out of the window... he's uni property that's why.

Angry Kid Hoyt
12-17-2007, 02:18 PM
Love is real and will always be a part of the human experience.
I feel sorry for anyone that hasn't experienced deep, mad crazy love for another person.

(And I am very aware of the difference between lust and love)

lukkucairi
12-17-2007, 02:29 PM
I've figured out how to kill love:

just drink a lot of alcohol and wait until the next morning. nobody can love through a hangover.

brightpearl
12-17-2007, 04:11 PM
^Yes, but unfortunately some of the same people who can't love through a hangover also can't love unless they're drunk.

Btw since we've gone off on the robots, let me say that while I may feel some reservation about love, I'm absofreakinglutely certain that sex is here to stay.

And perhaps it's merely a matter of time until I'm smitten with some broken-nosed, pie-loving astrophysicist and sounding like an idiot again.

I'm wondering about this because, by reading this thread, I've realized that the fact that I'm viscerally, fundamentally, irretrievably horrified by the idea of a relationship with an android means that somewhere deep down I still believe in the idea of a relationship between two humans.

Interesting.

Anna
12-19-2007, 05:21 AM
real
http://www.filmmakermagazine.com/blog/uploaded_images/rachel_bladerunner_sml-777153.jpg
or fake?

Brynn
12-19-2007, 07:16 AM
Love dies and love resurrects itself in an endless cycle. Love defies logic.

Whether or not some of mankind might, in the course of life, lose the ability to love, there will always be a remnant of those who choose to love anyway.
Love is one of the mightiest forces in existence. Even the smallest gesture of it can change anything.

Anna
12-21-2007, 11:01 AM
Love dies and love resurrects itself in an endless cycle. Love defies logic.

Whether or not some of mankind might, in the course of life, lose the ability to love, there will always be a remnant of those who choose to love anyway.
Love is one of the mightiest forces in existence. Even the smallest gesture of it can change anything.

ah yes, but what is it?

brightpearl
12-21-2007, 11:04 AM
It's recognition.

lukkucairi
12-21-2007, 02:46 PM
goddamnit, it's like cockroaches.

you stomp on it but more always seep in through the cracks.

xfox
12-22-2007, 04:25 PM
Keep the cockroaches outside. I love it when I don't see them.

lukkucairi
12-30-2007, 01:15 PM
maybe it won't die, but can it learn?

brightpearl
12-30-2007, 06:30 PM
^I think so, but it's pretty effing difficult. Lots of growing pains. And maybe it doesn't so much learn as just change naturally, which can look like learning.

lukkucairi
12-30-2007, 08:06 PM
bah @ growing pains.

*grump*

xfox
12-30-2007, 09:38 PM
who has lost their mother? Mine is living, but never let me forget that she was older, and it doesn't get better. Talk about grumble.

lukkucairi
12-30-2007, 10:48 PM
mom's still kicking in the upstairs spare bedroom, xfox...

is love alive?

brightpearl
12-30-2007, 10:53 PM
It's starting to dawn on me that maybe it is only as alive as I am.

Hyakujo's Fox
12-31-2007, 12:56 AM
betcha didn't even know you were dead.

lukkucairi
12-31-2007, 06:59 AM
^ shrŲdinger's fox

brightpearl
12-31-2007, 11:12 AM
betcha didn't even know you were dead.

did too.
:D

lukkucairi
12-31-2007, 12:30 PM
fetch a cricket bat! I'm being beset on all sides by love zombies!http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/10/08/shaunofthedea_wideweb__430x280.jpg

Brynn
12-31-2007, 02:12 PM
^:) ERRRGh we want to love the guts out of you...
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/rogue_pictures/shaun_of_the_dead/zombies.jpg


ah yes, but what is it?

"The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth."
---M. Scott Peck

"Love is patient and kind, never jealous or envious, never boastful or proud.
Love is never haughty or selfish or rude.
Love does not demand it's own way. Love is not irritable or touchy.
Love does not hold grudges and will hardly notice when others do it wrong.
Love is never glad about injustice, but rejoices whenever truth wins out.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always preserves."
---I Corinthians 13

Sometimes I demand my own way. Sometimes I get irritable or touchy, or fail to do any number of these things. Does that mean I've lost the ability to love? No. It just means that I've forgotten my objective and need to forgive myself so I can try to do better next time. Most importantly, I need to float others a giant break when they fail too. To me, that's what love is.
For me, technology has nothing to do with it.

Anna
12-31-2007, 07:17 PM
The history of the world, my sweet — Oh, Mr. Todd, Ooh, Mr. Todd, What does it tell?— is who gets eaten and who gets to eat!

xfox
01-01-2008, 12:02 AM
mom's still kicking in the upstairs spare bedroom, xfox...

is love alive?

there's a slow, shallow breath and faint pulse, but yes. Mom took the cake this week and gave it away to all her friends, saving only a small morsel for my brother.

lukkucairi
01-04-2008, 08:41 PM
it's DEAD! DEAD I tell you!

http://www.paso.gr/site/images/stories/01-DeadLove.jpg

Stephi_B
01-08-2008, 08:34 AM
There's love and love (and the thing medial mass culture sells under the same name).

Love that is about possession
(lookie there, that's my house, my car, my (wo)man - mine, mine, mine!!),
public perception / showing off
(lookie there how grand my (wo)man is and we just can't stop touching each other),
ego boost
(lookie what a super-duper (wo)man I got there, you gotta be grand to have such a hottie on your side),
can vanish from the surface of the Earth. With goodbye wishes from me!

And then there's love that can't be described in words,
that is often too subtle for others to notice and even then beautiful and not bothersome.
Without it life would be a totally f**ked up mess, imo
(and I'm a single since quite a while, consider that the normal status for the time being and never had a relationship exceeding 6 months
- so no happy-hormone drugged zombie speaking here ;))

brightpearl
09-03-2008, 04:10 PM
Oh, look, all my kvetching about being a dead and stumplike disappeared.

This has done little to improve my outlook, but perhaps it will be less depressing for the rest of you. :)

lukkucairi
09-03-2008, 06:33 PM
it's alive alive alive

lust, however, is down for the count.

there's no end to numbers, either.

brightpearl
09-05-2008, 10:55 PM
lust, however, is down for the count.

Is not.
:D

lukkucairi
09-06-2008, 01:23 AM
Is not.
:D

IS TOO!

dammit, where's my cricket bat again?

:mad:

brightpearl
09-08-2008, 11:29 PM
Well, lust is just lust. Just energy.
Adding judgment to it, about what it should look like and whether it is alive or dead, or most importantly what is to be done about it and what should not be done about it, is extra.

And according to the first law of thermodynamics, it can't be born, nor can it die. Whatever needs doing about it is one of those things that one should do much thinking about, and much talking to others, and much settling on one's innermost intentions.

I will think about whether I want to note that perhaps the same can be said for love.

Interestingly, I just cast the I-Ching for myself, and among other things it said, "A dry poplar sprouts at the root."
:D
So there you go, me.

lukkucairi
09-08-2008, 11:34 PM
Well, lust is just lust. Just energy.
Adding judgment to it, about what it should look like and whether it is alive or dead, or most importantly what is to be done about it and what should not be done about it, is extra.

And according to the first law of thermodynamics, it can't be born, nor can it die. Whatever needs doing about it is one of those things that one should do much thinking about, and much talking to others, and much settling on one's innermost intentions.

*golf clap*

and a *hug* fer tellin' the truth ;)

brightpearl
09-08-2008, 11:35 PM
But I'm going to loan you my antique cricket bat, in case you really need it.
;)
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1444/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1444R-265888.jpg

Cricket bats can be very handy.

lukkucairi
09-09-2008, 12:52 AM
thanks, I'll take that as a backup

I'm having a lot of luck with four foot lengths of PVC pipe right now, actually :)

brightpearl
09-09-2008, 12:54 AM
There are a lot of things I could say about that, but I'm not going to.

It's a good thing I'm so mature.

And surely everyone else is thinking it anyway.

lukkucairi
09-11-2008, 01:17 AM
http://www.redstoneprojects.com/trebuchetstore/pvc_trebuchet_1.jpg

what, you've been building a trebuchet?

it beats the hell out of a cricket bat, at least at distance.

MoJoRiSin
11-09-2008, 10:53 AM
i was search for the "this is useful thread
but I am giving up

http://pro.corbis.com/images/CB001406.jpg?size=572&uid=%7BC2A39CCA-A3A3-4586-9C46-3609410076A3%7D

lukkucairi
11-12-2008, 04:22 AM
my love just died :(

Jack Flanders
11-12-2008, 04:28 AM
^afraid to ask but who?

lukkucairi
11-12-2008, 04:44 AM
ah no, not literally :p

metaphorically - lots of stuff going on in the past week

maybe "love dying" isn't such a bad thing in the long run? :confused:

Jack Flanders
11-12-2008, 04:52 AM
yep eyes wide open but still aware and feeling.

Frieda
11-12-2008, 06:22 AM
if the only thing that changes in this world is your own perception, does that mean that love has never been alive? is still important? or just another tiny part of the universe?

lukkucairi
11-15-2008, 12:18 PM
depends on what you think of as "love"

Brynn
11-17-2008, 04:14 PM
some things can't be forgiven easily.

YsaPur EsChomuw
11-19-2008, 02:26 PM
http://www.mult-kor.hu/attachments/18589/szerelmi.jpg

Jack Flanders
11-20-2008, 04:06 AM
^ Sorry. "Harold, I told you separate graves."[/I]

monkeyknifightz
11-26-2008, 02:53 PM
some things can't be forgiven easily.

I dont know if it depends on the person, the love, or the situation. But I know I have forgiven many many things, some of them...well they were pretty terrible. I did it easily and quickly only asking for love in return. Real honest to God love is something ineffable, you can't tell anyone why you love someone only the things you love about them. What then makes it love if you love more things about them than you dislike or love a certain number of things?

I don't see how my love could ever die, 40 years down the road she could be dead or ran away with another man, my heart will still be with her.

lukkucairi
12-06-2008, 07:56 AM
^40 years from now you will be another person six times over, give or take a couple of years

if you believe in time as a linear entity, much will have changed

otherwise, nah, love doesn't die :p

it's electric! boogie-oogie-oogie!

Brynn
01-03-2009, 11:54 PM
I dont know if it depends on the person, the love, or the situation. But I know I have forgiven many many things, some of them...well they were pretty terrible. I did it easily and quickly only asking for love in return.

In my case, I'm thinking of an abusive older sister, who has been a fairly toxic presence in my life from the time of some of my earliest memories.
She does not respond to the love I offer her.
And I know not to ask for any love in return - she's just way too damaged.

Loving someone who is unlovable - now there's a trick. If you can do that, you can do anything.

Do I still love her? Only if gratitude counts - I'm grateful that she was around to be surrogate mother - a role thrust upon her when our mom was too depressed and emotionally absent to change diapers, and feed 6 kids all the time. My sister did the best she could in that situation. She was in her own nightmare, and took it out on us. And still does. I truly and honestly wish her well and hope for the best for her, because if she never does anything else, that was enough. But I do not want to continue in an abusive relationship with her anymore.

What does love really mean in practical terms? Have all my lovely affections for her finally died? Yes - as Edward Albee puts it, there's just been "too much blood under the bridge." Can I extend myself once again towards her and initiate contact and be involved in her life? Not right now. I need boundaries to be healthy. Can I love her from a distance? Honestly, I would really just rather not think about her. To me, that's not love.

Ultimately, for my own peace, it's imperative that I forgive her. And I do, with all my heart - from a distance. Christ's admonition to forgive not just once but 7 x 70 times comes to mind often. It's just not easy, that's all. I pretty much suck at it.

brightpearl
01-04-2009, 12:17 AM
Dear Brynn,
I wholeheartedly support you protecting yourself and ask you to consider whether your approach, if it could not be called love, might be true compassion...

so deep that you are allowing her to be as she is, without requiring her to change just for you.

It's just that you are also acting with compassion for yourself, and as I recall, Jesus said that you should love thy neighbor AS thyself, and not instead of.

I think you're doing very well at being a person. Congratulations.

Sincerely,
Pearly

Brynn
01-04-2009, 11:12 PM
Thanks Pearly.
True compassion is the ultimate aim, of course. It's just really difficult!
I feel compassion for her, but not to the point where I will make myself available for her emotional beatings anymore.

So what does compassion look like in practical terms when it comes to people who really need/want to be left alone? That's the question I'm wrestling with. Can it be practiced from afar? I feel like my only choice in this particular instance is to grieve as if she has died and accept the fact that there is no relationship. If there is no relationship, how can there be love? It's died.

I could keep trying to reach her. But why? to what purpose?

β cyg
01-05-2009, 04:18 PM
i love my momma and poppa

brightpearl
01-05-2009, 04:53 PM
I feel compassion for her, but not to the point where I will make myself available for her emotional beatings anymore.

Yes, exactly. That is balanced compassion for self and other, seeing the situation as a unit and not imagining that you must choose between compassion for her and compassion for you. It's just acceptance of things as they are after having offered your best. That's the real deal with a capital C....

Brynn
01-05-2009, 06:11 PM
i love my momma and poppa
And they love you!!!!:p
http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2007/04/12/care-bears.jpg

lukkucairi
01-15-2009, 11:17 AM
yoga has warped my mind. I LOVE EEEVVERYBODYYYY! :D

Hyakujo's Fox
05-06-2009, 12:29 AM
. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_v468ptuXw)

MoJoRiSin
05-06-2009, 12:47 AM
h fox, your post reminded me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCd0rPW06U8

not sure is "love" and "will ever die" are appropriate
but well maybe sorta :)

YsaPur EsChomuw
05-27-2009, 12:22 AM
loves me, loves me not (http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/26/guest-column-loves-me-loves-me-not-do-the-math/?tham?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=a3)

brightpearl
06-11-2009, 12:32 AM
June 12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mildred_Loving)

zero
06-27-2009, 10:29 AM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2008/11/28/1227894476470/Gallery-Magnums-Cuba-Woma-003.jpg

MoJoRiSin
06-27-2009, 12:19 PM
if you watch that movie
the aviator
"you will see"
THAT GUY LOVED AIRPLANES !!



more than anything?

xfox
07-04-2009, 09:34 PM
No, love will never die. My Dad loved airplanes. He was born in Beverly on the 4th, was a naval aviator for 20 years (flew Hellcats in the Pacific in WWII) and left this world on Dec 7 31 years ago.

Klynne
07-12-2009, 12:46 AM
I have a deep love for my family and my cats. I do believe in love, but it sucks. I have to spend a crazy amount of money to keep my cats healthy. Then a crazy amount of emotions of keeping my family close, but not toooo close. I think love is all about doing what is best for others, rather than yourself. Maybe that is why I have ****ed up relationships.

MoJoRiSin
07-12-2009, 12:32 PM
mo thinks no
***********

"Commagene kingdom was established in the 1st Century BC and maintained its existence till 72 AD in this region.

Mithradates 1 was the Greatest King of the Commagene kingdom. What made him so important were his great targets. His purpose was to unite the religion of Westerners, namely of Greeks with the religion of Eastern Persians. Thus, he would create a new world religion and make Mount Nemrut to be the center of such religion and would cause this new religion to spread across all over the world."

(I found this because of how Lukku was feeling)
Thanks be unto you Lukku !!

http://www.tuluyhanugurlu.com/English/nemrut.html

brightpearl
07-13-2009, 07:21 PM
clicky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFnul4k5hUM)

Coffee
07-14-2009, 11:58 AM
http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200303/tos-005-dr--mccoy2/320x240.jpg

Love is dead Jim.

lukkucairi
08-03-2009, 02:09 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4aqeyNMaRYI/SYeJA-jYgLI/AAAAAAAAB9I/QP7--lH8x5c/s400/love+birds_photo_etsy+flywith+me.jpg

12"razormix
08-05-2009, 03:48 PM
will love ever die?

no.

Stephi_B
08-05-2009, 05:55 PM
no.

R'mix speaks good :) Love may be the ultimate very very thing :) yes, such a theory smells good indeed :)