we weep for humanity

[Frieda]

i don't think child molesters that come out of jail went in there because of economics


one can fake the answers to a psychological test to make sure you get the chance to have babies! how do you solve that?

[Large Marge]

Originally Posted by Aphrodite

If that man had taken a parenting class, perhaps he would have learned that his Dad (who I am imagining hit him) did it wrong. Perhaps he would have learned alternatives or a place to call and say he was out of control.
What about the Mom who allowed the child to be beaten and left alone with her abuser? Perhaps she'd have learned to call for help or stand up for her child.
How do we know he was born a whack job (your term)?

You are right, a parenting class is not going to tell us much about a person's psyche

But psychological testing can.

EDITED TO FIX: I'm *not* sure that all abusers are "born" that way; it's my opinion that much of that behavior is learned.

[Spicy Jack]

Originally Posted by Aphrodite

If that man had taken a parenting class, perhaps he would have learned that his Dad (who I am imagining hit him) did it wrong. Perhaps he would have learned alternatives or a place to call and say he was out of control.

I think that realtes to the theory that people are born good (or with a blank slate) and that people are taught to be bad.

I don't agree. I think some people are just bad people. Yes, enviromental conditions affect your outcome, but I think people are predisposed to certain behavior and all the teaching in the world won't change a thing.

I mean, who would ever think it is okay to in anyway harm your own flesh and blood? A child that you created? People aren't all the same.

[Large Marge]

Originally Posted by Frieda

i don't think child molesters that come out of jail went in there because of economics

one can fake the answers to a psychological test to make sure you get the chance to have babies! how do you solve that?

FROM BEFORE: yes that's a clear example. but you can't see that in advance. that's the main problem! you can't decide in advance if someone is a complete wacko if he/she doesn't have a police record.

I didn't realize you were talking specifically about child molesters.

It is very difficult to fake answers on a psychological exam, depending on the exam, of course. I've taken a few, and back-ups are built into the test to catch people who may try to "cheat."

[Frieda]

Originally Posted by Large Marge

I didn't realize you were talking specifically about child molesters.

It is very difficult to fake answers on a psychological exam, depending on the exam, of course. I've taken a few, and back-ups are built into the test to catch people who may try to "cheat."

child molesters, people that have been in fights.. traffic speeders may point out aggressive and irresponsible behavior..

i think it's very very easy to fake psychological testing. it's pretty difficult to build good failsafes into a test. the more intelligent the person that takes the test is, the easier it is for that person to fake. during my study, about 20% of the students faked answers and about 8,5% of those students succesfully faked.

also, the tests would show up on the internet in no time, and probably in your spam email folders too. pay a few bucks and you get the proper answers to cheat.

[Large Marge]

Originally Posted by Frieda

child molesters, people that have been in fights.. traffic speeders may point out aggressive and irresponsible behavior..

I don't think you can compare child molesters to people who have been in fights or to people who speed or to people who are irresponsible. It isn't coming from the same place. Perhaps someone educated in psychology could offer some insight?

Originally Posted by Frieda

i think it's very very easy to fake psychological testing. it's pretty difficult to build good failsafes into a test. the more intelligent the person that takes the test is, the easier it is for that person to fake. during my study, about 20% of the students faked answers and about 8,5% of those students succesfully faked.

Interesting. Can you tell me a bit about your study? Did you create it? How long/many questions was the test? Who took the test? Why did they take the test? What did you hope to acheive by giving the tests?

[Spicy Jack]

Okay, let's say that the government conciders this idea and is preparing to create a parenting course, psycological test, and parenting test.

What makes a good parent? ... or if you want to be daring "parents" with an "s"?

-Ability to be financially responsible to pay ones bills (no debt), to provide proper food and clothing, and to make sure the child has access to education.
-Creating a safe home enviroment, or having a place to call home for that matter. (what about smoking in the house?)
-The ability to raise ones children. If you (and your spouse) work all day, who is raising your children? Basically balancing meeting financial goals (standard of living) with parenting needs.
-Knowing your resources and using them properly (welfare, etc)

Those are just a few that I can think of right now.

I think those can be accepted as universal and in no way discriminate to race, class, religion, or politics.

[Large Marge]

Originally Posted by Spicy Jack

What makes a good parent? ... or if you want to be daring "parents" with an "s"?

-Ability to be financially responsible to pay ones bills (no debt), to provide proper food and clothing, and to make sure the child has access to education.
-Creating a safe home enviroment, or having a place to call home for that matter. (what about smoking in the house?)
-The ability to raise ones children. If you (and your spouse) work all day, who is raising your children? Basically balancing meeting financial goals (standard of living) with parenting needs.
-Knowing your resources and using them properly (welfare, etc)

Those are just a few that I can think of right now.

I think those can be accepted as universal and in no way discriminate to race, class, religion, or politics.

"-Ability to be financially responsible to pay ones bills (no debt), to provide proper food and clothing, and to make sure the child has access to education.
-Creating a safe home enviroment, or having a place to call home for that matter.
-The ability to raise ones children. If you (and your spouse) work all day, who is raising your children?"

These are based on economic status, and so I would argue they are discriminatory.

[Frieda]

Originally Posted by Large Marge

I don't think you can compare child molesters to people who have been in fights or to people who speed or to people who are irresponsible. It isn't coming from the same place. Perhaps someone educated in psychology could offer some insight?

exactly. you cannot make sure the line is drawn where it's supposed to be drawn! first, it'll be the child molesters. then the people that are notorious drug addicts. then the people that drink alcohol. then the people that drink alcohol in weekends. etc

Originally Posted by Large Marge

Interesting. Can you tell me a bit about your study? Did you create it? How long/many questions was the test? Who took the test? Why did they take the test? What did you hope to acheive by giving the tests?

psychology studies, nothing too fancy. every week 500 students had to take tests made by the senior students.

one of them was a big new psychological test that had to provide a general idea of a someone's personality. testing took place 3 weeks in a row for about an hour with 250 questions every time. test subjects were 500 students in the age of 17-65, mostly female. they took it because it was part of their study. we were making the test as a means of assessment for professions such as fighter pilot, airport control tower employee, police officer, judge, that kind of profession.

[Aphrodite]

Psychological testing for everyone? Now that isn't just going to be used to find bad parents. If a psych screen is your answer to this problem, we are in big trouble. Sure, she would make a great parent, but she's too radical, she'll become a dissident, anarchy will reign.
Less far fetched scenario: psych profile, given for assessment of parenting capabilities shows the following; intelligent, adapts well, shows quick temper, sometimes out of control, potential for impaired thinking, potential for positive parenting. Action given: Administer a second 'one on one' parenting program, followed by another psych evaluation. She passes and can have children.
5 years later she is in court for drinking and driving after a Christmas party. She killed a child on her way home. Her children are healthy and happy. Mom is a good mother, on the PTA, drives little Bobby to hockey every morning. There is documentation in the hands of the government which could impact her court case.

I think you are referring to the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory. That was standard in first year psych.

[Large Marge]

Originally Posted by Aphrodite

Psychological testing for everyone? Now that isn't just going to be used to find bad parents. If a psych screen is your answer to this problem, we are in big trouble. Sure, she would make a great parent, but she's too radical, she'll become a dissident, anarchy will reign.
Less far fetched scenario: psych profile, given for assessment of parenting capabilities shows the following; intelligent, adapts well, shows quick temper, sometimes out of control, potential for impaired thinking, potential for positive parenting. Action given: Administer a second 'one on one' parenting program, followed by another psych evaluation. She passes and can have children.
5 years later she is in court for drinking and driving after a Christmas party. She killed a child on her way home. Her children are healthy and happy. ...

You mean, except for the one she killed ....

[Willow Sylph]

Also -
History of sexual or physical abuse by either parent.


Just a side story: My parents had a neighbor that made their lives a living hell for almost five years. The woman had 12 adopted children in a three bedroom house. She had previously been in trouble for child abuse in a neighboring county and had that child taken away. She had also, in the time she lived next door to my parents let 11 of her animals starve to death within that span of time (my mother filmed this and submitted to the authorities to no avail). We often pondered, what's it going to take for the authorities to do something about this freak? Murder? The answer, sadly, is yes. Of the number of abuse tactics she used on her adopted kids, the most popular was making one of the older kids lay on top of the hunched body of one of the younger kids who had "misbehaved." This punishment finally suffocated her six year old girl to death. Only then did the authorities finally do something about this freak. Later, in court, it was found out just how much she abused her adopted kids physically and psychologically.

[Aphrodite]

Yes. She had an accident based on some really bad choices. A terrible thing happened, but it could have happened to anyone. Another case just like it could be a man who drinks and drives all the time, but has absolutely no mention of 'quick temper' or 'out of control'. He gets off with accidental manslaughter.
I wouldn't want to be profiled for personality traits only to have it work against me at a later time because it was in my records.

[Large Marge]

Originally Posted by Frieda

exactly. you cannot make sure the line is drawn where it's supposed to be drawn! first, it'll be the child molesters. then the people that are notorious drug addicts. then the people that drink alcohol. then the people that drink alcohol in weekends. etc

That reasoning doesn't make sense to me. I see a distinct difference between child molesters and people who drink alcohol, and I think a test could be created that did the same.

Originally Posted by Frieda

psychology studies, nothing too fancy. every week 500 students had to take tests made by the senior students.

one of them was a big new psychological test that had to provide a general idea of a someone's personality. testing took place 3 weeks in a row for about an hour with 250 questions every time. test subjects were 500 students in the age of 17-65, mostly female. they took it because it was part of their study. we were making the test as a means of assessment for professions such as fighter pilot, airport control tower employee, police officer, judge, that kind of profession.

Were all the tests made by senior students?

The tests I took were given by a police department to which I was trying to gain employment. It was a four-hour test; I can't remember how many questions. I think that many police departments use the same test.

[Large Marge]

Originally Posted by Willow Sylph

Also -
History of sexual or physical abuse by either parent.


Just a side story: My parents had a neighbor that made their lives a living hell for almost five years. The woman had 12 adopted children in a three bedroom house. She had previously been in trouble for child abuse in a neighboring county and had that child taken away. She had also, in the time she lived next door to my parents let 11 of her animals starve to death within that span of time (my mother filmed this and submitted to the authorities to no avail). We often pondered, what's it going to take for the authorities to do something about this freak? Murder? The answer, sadly, is yes. Of the number of abuse tactics she used on her adopted kids, the most popular was making one of the older kids lay on top of the hunched body of one of the younger kids who had "misbehaved." This punishment finally suffocated her six year old girl to death. Only then did the authorities finally do something about this freak. Later, in court, it was found out just how much she abused her adopted kids physically and psychologically.

That's so very sad.