is fascism sexy?

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by Brynn

Kind of like the girl at the party who immediately asks the guy what kind of car he drives, or declares that she will "only date men who drive Saturns/Corvettes/Mercedes...(blah blah blah I'm stupid)!" I guess .

That is close to my point, it is more like a guy that will only date Redheads or a girl who will only date guys taller than her. Heck I know a few women that have went out with guys because of a cologne.

Originally Posted by Brynn

i think it's rather naive at this point in our history to just shrug at the implications that the swastika has taken on and say "it's just a symbol." Before, the swastika was an ancient symbol of life, yes. So what? The Nazis reversed the direction and made it a symbol of absolute evil. That's just the reality. To use the symbol today when the Holocaust is still fresh in the global psyche is nothing less than an act of belligerance, and to pretend it isn't belies a kind of cultural blindness. Nothing wrong with a "military look". But that which is specifically nazi is problematic..

I guess a subtext to my argument is when is it "safe" to recaim a disgraced symbol? Christians did it with the cross. When can the world reclaim the Swastika? Or has the world already begun with this "nazi chic" style? Henry Miller has a good quote on breaking of taboos.

Originally Posted by Brynn

I don't think it can be disputed that many people in all walks of life are drawn to taboo and think it's sexy simply because it's "forbidden." I guess in a world where all other perversions have been exhausted, nazi chic is just the latest shocking thing to apply to a desensitized sense of sexuality, not to mention a huge need for attention, negative or otherwise. I'd prefer not to have to rub shoulders with it, and admit to feeling contemptuous when I see it in a club, but if someone wants to look like a complete moron, it's none of my business. If it gets someone's rocks off to wear it, well, life is difficult enough already - let 'em. But societal acceptance of the practice isn't what the wearer is going for anyway.

I agree with a live-and-let live philosophy.

Originally Posted by Brynn

Just curious - did you select your avatar just for this thread? Bit of tongue-in-cheek humor? After saying all that above, I do find the image at the very least appropriate to the discussion, anyway. Welcome.

Yes. I did. It is actually an Italian WW2 uniform, but many people would mistakenly identify it as a Nazi uniform. Which is always humorous to me, because those are usually the people who "scream" the loudest about how evil the nazi's were and everything about them should be banned.

Cheers,
Alighieri

[Brynn]

Ah yes, Mussolini's boys. Another facist of note. Fun guy.

Must a disgraced symbol be reclaimed at all?
The ancient swastika served its time, the nazi swastika served its time and place - I just wonder - for someone who isn't the least bit superstitious, where does the need to resurrect a graphic symbol - especially such a loaded one - come from? Is there a gap in the world right now that needs filling by the nazi emblem? I mean, apart from the needs of the fetishists, of course

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by Brynn

Ah yes, Mussolini's boys. Another facist of note. Fun guy.

Must a disgraced symbol be reclaimed at all?
The ancient swastika served its time, the nazi swastika served its time and place - I just wonder - for someone who isn't the least bit superstitious, where does the need to resurrect a graphic symbol - especially such a loaded one - come from? Is there a gap in the world right now that needs filling by the nazi emblem? I mean, apart from the needs of the fetishists, of course

I suppose there is no need to reclaim the swastika, anymore than there is a need to reclaim any other symbol. I suppose I find it an interesting discussion as to wether or not we should reclaim it. I think that in time it will be reclaimed and reused, much as the cross was.

Alighieri

[craig johnston]

Yes. I did. It is actually an Italian WW2 uniform, but many people would mistakenly identify it as a Nazi uniform. Which is always humorous to me, because those are usually the people who "scream" the loudest about how evil the nazi's were and everything about them should be banned.

so you disagree with those who point out how evil the nazis were?
this is the kind of comment that makes you sound as if you admire them actually, but are afraid to admit it.

[12"razormix]

johnston, you sexy beast!

( btw, dante doesn't sound to me as if he's scared of anything and he has pointed out several times that he doesn't disagree with the fact that nazis are evil.. )

[craig johnston]

Originally Posted by 12"razormix

johnston, you sexy beast!

wrong thread!

he has pointed out several times that he doesn't disagree with the fact that nazis are evil..

yes, but then he mocks those who say it.
somewhat confusing, somewhat confused?

[12"razormix]

i understood it this way: if you scream about banning anything nazi, you should at least be able to recognize a nazi uniform... or something like that

but i'm sure mr. alighieri will clarify!

i find this whole discussion somewhat pointless. you either like or don't like. on this issue, the people who don't like tend to dislike to an extremely high degree (myself included) and there is not much room for compromise.

mr. dante, it seems to me, likes to the point of "i find it sexually exciting to look at a uniform" but rejects the ideology behind the costumes.

[craig johnston]

it's one of those areas where two things that i strongly believe in
come into conflict, ie a revulsion for fascism and a commitment to
sexual freedom.
i'm also interested in understanding why people find something so
nauseous exciting.
and, i must admit, i have a sneaking suspicion that there are those
who use it as a way of acceptably living out their political as well as
sexual fantasies.

otherwise, you're right, it's pretty boring.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by craig johnston

it's one of those areas where two things that i strongly believe in
come into conflict, ie a revulsion for fascism and a commitment to
sexual freedom.
i'm also interested in understanding why people find something so
nauseous exciting.
and, i must admit, i have a sneaking suspicion that there are those
who use it as a way of acceptably living out their political as well as
sexual fantasies.

otherwise, you're right, it's pretty boring.

To address your interest in human arousal and taboo, the body chemically sees fear (an extreme form of revulsion) and arousal very similarly. Both produce endorphins and adrenaline, the interpretation of those chemicals by the brain produces a contextual reaction based on past experience. That is why when some people get really nervous about public speaking they get "butterflies" in their stomach, or when they are first "in love" they also have a similar reaction. With taboos, there are societal rules that create an attraction/replusion for an object or act. Those that find a particular taboo exciting simply do not interpret the taboo the same as someone else would. Taboos also change with time (and cultures), as they become less taboo and more mainstream, the reaction/repulsion response diminishes.

Cheers,

Alighieri

[trisherina]

Originally Posted by craig johnston

and, i must admit, i have a sneaking suspicion that there are those
who use it as a way of acceptably living out their political as well as
sexual fantasies.

I'd be careful with this. Fetishes are often hardwired into the brain starting at a very young age, such as the boy who lusts after toe rings lifelong in response to pleasant memories of playing on the floor at mama's pretty feet. Rare is the toddler who has an opinion about fascism.

A good book on the subject is Different Loving. I spent a heady evening with the authors once, but that's another story.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by 12"razormix

i understood it this way: if you scream about banning anything nazi, you should at least be able to recognize a nazi uniform... or something like that

mr. dante, it seems to me, likes to the point of "i find it sexually exciting to look at a uniform" but rejects the ideology behind the costumes.

That would be a fair summation of some of my points.

Alighieri

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by craig johnston

so you disagree with those who point out how evil the nazis were?
this is the kind of comment that makes you sound as if you admire them actually, but are afraid to admit it.

I do not disagree with those who point out the terrible things the Nazi's did. I think it was barbaric and wrong, as I have stated already. The irony is that many people couldn't pick out the uniforms of Germany in WW2. They will mistake US police uniforms and Uniforms of other countries mistakenly calling them Nazi, when in fact they weren't. It is more of amusement that without seeing the uniforms on TV and in movies, many people who say that the uniforms shouldn't be worn couldn't identify them.

I don't admire the Nazi's. I do however admire the German people. And having studied WW2 and the politics that led up to the war, I understand how they were mislead and lied to to get them into a war. I think in America we are feeling the same way the German people did.

Alighieri

[Brynn]

Originally Posted by Alighieri

I think in America we are feeling the same way the German people did.

Amen to that. Along with all the attendant self-delusion, btw.