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Old 12-05-2004, 07:00 PM   #76
Avalon
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Whether the test thing ever flies or not, I am against all of the other perks I listed regardless.
The woman next door's brother is in a federal prison for murder and attempted murder. He killed his former fiance' and attempted to kill one of his sisters. My neighbor's biggest brag? That her convict brother can now bench press 250 lb. and that he will be released in 2 years after serving 20 of his 15-25 year sentence.

Very comforting to know that a man, who at 18, beat a woman to death and then tried to stab his sister to death, has been working on his physical fittness.

Mean while, the girl he murdered has a 20 year old son who cannot remember his mother. His sister is a functioning drunk these days with 33 stab wound scars.
There is something very wrong with this picture. I do not think depriving them of TV, books they used to learn how to screw the system with, and gyms is cruel and/or unusual. Allowing them the pleasures that millions of hard working honest people cannot afford is cruel and most unusual.

Seems crime does pay.
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Old 12-05-2004, 07:45 PM   #77
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Well, about the blood donor thing, I couldn't help thinking that there would be some criminals who would take great pleasure in passing on blood tainted in some fashion. Even without taking into account cruel and unusual punishment objections, ensuring the safety of such an endeavour would be prohibitively eckspensive.

Given how much of the prison population is filled with people whose offenses basically relate to self-abuse through drugs, I'm not sure you'd find many Hep C-free to start with.
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Old 12-05-2004, 08:03 PM   #78
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But the whole cruetly thing... if it's cruel and unusual punishment to let them submit to drug testing in exchange for privileges and such, how is it not cruelty to animals to force them to undergo it? The blood donor thing does creep me out, though -- I'm not even allowed to give blood (mono a year ago) and I'm pretty darn healthy.
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Old 12-05-2004, 08:21 PM   #79
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yeah... well it's that slippery slope thing. the thing is that the argument was going something like this "it's horrible what they do to animals in these cosmetic tests... hmmm.... why not do it to prisoners?" well, it seems to me that if it was cruel to the animals it's still cruel to the prisoner. certainly there are guys behind bars that are bad, bad men... but there are also innocent men in there too and men (an, of course women) who have made a mistake they regret.

but... sure... taking away their chance to work out and stay physically and mentally healthy, give them an opportunity to volunteer for experiments that might leave them blind or ill... yep that's the kind of civilization i want to live in.

christ.

"the quality of mercy is not strained."
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Old 12-05-2004, 08:31 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Large Marge
zenbaby, is that Shirley Temple in your avatar?
yes
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Old 12-05-2004, 09:31 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by masterofNone
but... sure... taking away their chance to work out and stay physically and mentally healthy, give them an opportunity to volunteer for experiments that might leave them blind or ill... yep that's the kind of civilization i want to live in.

christ.

"the quality of mercy is not strained."
as usual, you twisted things to your liking.
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Last edited by Avalon : 12-05-2004 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 12-05-2004, 11:25 PM   #82
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see, i thought i was presenting an opposing view. but i'm sure you're right. clearly i'm the one with issues.
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Old 12-05-2004, 11:32 PM   #83
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Condescending; how very you.
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Old 12-05-2004, 11:46 PM   #84
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darlin, that's not condescending. that's passive aggressive.

i thought i was following the rules of engagement. the idea of the debate hall is... and here's a clue for you... debate. one of the rules of debate is to avoid argumentum ad hominem. need help? here's a passage from the link trish provided earlier.

Quote:
Argumentum ad hominem


Argumentum ad hominem literally means "argument directed at the man"; there are two varieties.


The first is the abusive form. If you refuse to accept a statement, and justify your refusal by criticizing the person who made the statement, then you are guilty of abusive argumentum ad hominem. For example:

"You claim that atheists can be moral -- yet I happen to know that you abandoned your wife and children."


This is a fallacy because the truth of an assertion doesn't depend on the virtues of the person asserting it. A less blatant argumentum ad hominem is to reject a proposition based on the fact that it was also asserted by some other easily criticized person. For example:

"Therefore we should close down the church? Hitler and Stalin would have agreed with you."


A second form of argumentum ad hominem is to try and persuade someone to accept a statement you make, by referring to that person's particular circumstances. For example:

"Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food. I hope you won't argue otherwise, given that you're quite happy to wear leather shoes."


This is known as circumstantial argumentum ad hominem. The fallacy can also be used as an excuse to reject a particular conclusion. For example:

"Of course you'd argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing. You're white."


This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem, when you allege that someone is rationalizing a conclusion for selfish reasons, is also known as "poisoning the well."


It's not always invalid to refer to the circumstances of an individual who is making a claim. If someone is a known perjurer or liar, that fact will reduce their credibility as a witness. It won't, however, prove that their testimony is false in this case. It also won't alter the soundness of any logical arguments they may make.
see avalon, i don't think i ever had a discouraging word to say about you until you started coming at me with insults and assumptions that i think i'm somehow "better" than anyone else on the board. if you want to debate, let's be civil. if you want to bring personal attacks, be prepared to defend yourself because i won't sit back and let you be rude to me (or to my friends) without bringing a full and rigorous retaliation. so... if you're willing to play nice... i'll play nice. but if you want to keep up the insults... i can do that too.

Last edited by masterofNone : 12-06-2004 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 12-05-2004, 11:58 PM   #85
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You really want to watch the name calling. I have been kind up until now. If you want to call names and get personal, you should watch your back.
But, you may call me anything you like, it doesn't bother me a bit. I will just scrape you off the bottom of my shoes and keep walking.
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:07 AM   #86
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i really think you ought to reconsider.
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:10 AM   #87
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Never, ever threaten me in any way, shape or form.
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I, not events, have the power to make me happy or unhappy today. I can choose which it shall be. Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I have just one day, today, and I'm going to be happy in it.
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:29 AM   #88
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ok...so back to PETA being freaks..
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:33 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Avalon
Never, ever threaten me in any way, shape or form.
please quote where i threatened you.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:01 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by masterofNone
"another volley from the deSperate housewives."
"darlin, that's not condescending. that's passive aggressive, you menapausal wretch."
and darlin, iffn' you're going to quote me, please, quote me correctly and with proper spelling.

i called you an "absolute menopausal wretch". but i retracted it because i was being mean. it's a defensive reaction i have to being treated rudely.

still waiting on a quote citing an incidence of my threatening you... hell i'd settle for one where i implied a threat. while you're at it, i'd love it if you could find an example of my being rude to you (even once) before you decided to start calling me names and deriding my character publicly.

that would be great darlin.

that would be top shelf.
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