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Old 03-09-2005, 07:11 PM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed the Monkey
"All christians are a little crazy and I don't like em" is kinda also like saying "All gays are a little crazy and I don't like em" or "All Muslims are a little crazy and I don't like em".
I think you misinterpreted me. I'm of the "Love the Christian, Hate the Christianity" school of religious intolerance!

I believe people are free to worhsip as they like, but shouldn't be allowed to inflict their religion on others or use their religion as justification for their violence or immorality, or to justify laws that discriminate against others. One of the problems the world faces today is the political incorrectness associated with criticizing a person's religion. While it is OK in America today to condemn fundamentalist Moslems as terrorists, Moslem moderates who, while not likely to strap bombs to themselves and walk into a supermarket yet share the same faith that makes fundamentalists so dangerous, are off-limits for criticism. Same with Christian moderates vs. fundamentalists. I would not be so anti-Christian if I saw mass demonstrations of Christian moderates demanding an end to the overbearing influence of their fundamentalist brethren.

And there' are BIG differences between homosexuality and Christianity that I hardly need to point out, but here are two of them:
1) One chooses one's religion; one does not choose one's sexual preference. (I should have a macro for that to save me so much re-typing!)

2) Being gay doesn't affect anyone but the one who's gay.
a. The only threat Christian's can rationally feel from gay marriage is that their religion may not make sense to future generations; same-sex marriage certainly doesn't affect their own marriages, or any other aspect of their lives. On the other hand, Christians' refusal to accept gay marriage (and their success at perpetuating same-sex marriage prejudices and prohibitions) absolutely affects the lives and rights of gay men and women.

b. A gay teen in Oklahoma is simply a gay teen. It's his Christian famiy and community that screws with his head to make him feel inferior by teaching him he's defying his creator by who he is, not by who he chooses to be.
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Old 03-09-2005, 09:27 PM   #302
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BTW, In case you(FTM or anyone else) do not believe that what is happening here is a little Christian jihad, look at the "REAL ID" Act that has already passed the US House and will soon by introduced in the Senate. Among its many alarming provisions for crushing fundamental rights and eliminating the need for due process in immigration issues, the bill makes deportable any person that supports a group that urges the use of force in any struggle. It applies retroactively to past actions, and it applies even if the person can prove that he or she never intended to support "terrorism."

This doesn't necessarily apply only to immigrants, but conceivably to native-born Americans, and if you look at the wording, it could easily apply to any moderate moslem who sent money to islamic relatives overseas or ever gave money to his/her mosque.

Interesting, no? Put aside the general fascism being inspired by Bush's "War on Terror." Think about your religious freedom here. I don't think my opinions about religion are really what you should worry about, but the truly dangerous actions of your religious leaders.
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Old 03-09-2005, 11:53 PM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed the Monkey
.Also, do you beleive anyone of faith
(whatever that is) is beleiving in hookum?
well, in the sense that 'faith' seems to mean believing in things
without any rational or logical reason, then yes.
call me cold hearted if you will, but i want some scientific proof
before i believe in something (apart from my football team, but
i readily admit that that is irrational).
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Old 03-10-2005, 12:02 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartypants
One chooses one's religion
Generally, it's inherited. Well... inasmuch as the best predictor of a person's religious affiliation is that person's parent's religion.

Anyway, most people could no more be said to have chosen their religion than be said to have chosen their primary language. You might say that, somewhere along the line, I must have effectively made a choice to continue speaking English rather than Thai, but I would think that not-to-change doesn't require an explicit choice.
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Old 03-10-2005, 12:39 AM   #305
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Yeah, well, OK, but now we're splitting hairs. Let me re-phrase: Religion is an acquired knowledge, and therefore can be "un-learnt." One's sexuality is innate.
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:21 AM   #306
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What's a debate without the occasional splitting of hairs?
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:22 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyakujo's Fox
What's a debate without the occasional splitting of hairs?
Or tearing of hair, for that matter!
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:23 AM   #308
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Ok I normally don't bad mouth any religion but this just really bothered me:

https://sbminist.christianshost.com/appieshop/index.cgi

WTF is so freakin different about "homosexuals"? I know I'm just reitterating things but like I said, I was really bothered by this. Where are the books entitled "Reaching the murderers" or "Stop the molestation the christian way" or "How to cope with not beating your child" or "10 ways to take care of your child when you are too lazy to do it yourself" or .... I think you get the idea. I'm sure some of these books are out there but why aren't they being pushed and publicized as much. I would think that there are much more pressing issues than that of someone's sexuality.
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:44 AM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmitty
^^ Oh, that is just SO gay!!

This is just one of the many examples of people who use the bible as justification for the persecution of others. Clytie seems to dismiss it as unrepresentative because she doesn't identify with this kind of group. I'd still welcome an attempt to explain it from someone who takes her cues from the same pages.

Clytie?

Also, along the lines of my recent post, I think it's time religious moderates speak up loudly about this stuff. What do you thinnk would stop this kind of religious irrationality faster, a hue and cry from the gay community or pointed and strenuous objections from fellow Christians?
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Old 03-10-2005, 02:56 AM   #310
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To answer your question in the last paragraph - pointed and strenuous objections from fellow christians. And probably not even that!
Chances are good that anyone who is set in their beliefs aren't going to be pursuaded to another view unless their open to another possibility in the first place (or they never really believed what they were following anyway). Throw in a little stubbornness, pride, ignorance, misinformation, or a lack of empathy, and changing someone else's mind seems damn near impossible. I'm not just talking about people who hold religious beliefs. I'm talking about people who think the Backstreet Boys are more talented than NSync or people who think Pepsi is better than coke. Most people have to come to a change of heart on their own.

edit to add: I'm not a religious moderate - don't mean to butt in - but I just wanted to put in my two cents on that question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartypants
^^ Oh, that is just SO gay!!

This is just one of the many examples of people who use the bible as justification for the persecution of others. Clytie seems to dismiss it as unrepresentative because she doesn't identify with this kind of group. I'd still welcome an attempt to explain it from someone who takes her cues from the same pages.

Clytie?

Also, along the lines of my recent post, I think it's time religious moderates speak up loudly about this stuff. What do you thinnk would stop this kind of religious irrationality faster, a hue and cry from the gay community or pointed and strenuous objections from fellow Christians?
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Old 03-10-2005, 04:14 AM   #311
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Vive la Spongebob!
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Last edited by shmitty : 03-10-2005 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 03-10-2005, 10:05 AM   #312
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yes ws, i find that inflexibility one of the most depressing
parts of the whole thing. this 'i believe - end of story' attitude
is just what we don't need.
i do not believe that science has all the answers, the 'big
bang' theory sounds as implausible as genesis to me, but at
least scientists admit that. at least they know that everything
is just a theory. wouldn't it be great if religious types would
do the same. if they would say, 'well, i am going with this
god theory for now, but if you can provide evidence to the
contrary i may be persuaded'.
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:18 PM   #313
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Exactly. I wish everyone felt the same way you do. Unfortunately people, including some people in this forum, still argue that you are stupid if you believe the "God Theory" at all.
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Old 03-10-2005, 03:18 PM   #314
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Purveyors of faith do not tend to couch their statements in allowing for evidence to the contrary. In fact, doubt is generally viewed as a personal failing, or according to more charitable views, a necessary but regrettable evil. You are not "good" at faith if you are allowing a back door. You have simply not yet "committed" yourself.
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Old 03-10-2005, 04:47 PM   #315
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One of the sales reps I deal with is a very interesting fellow, he is a christian who believes in evolution. I love to hold conversations with him, we have very similiar interests in literature. He is what I consider a "good christian" kind, friendly, tolerant of the beliefs of others and without hate for homosexuals. Do I think him a fool because he believes in a christian god, no, he is most definitely not a fool. My beef is with intolerant ignorant fools who cling to literal interpretations of the bible or any religion or philosophy. Skin heads, Klansmen, religious fundamentalists, Taliban etc are all the same kind of crazy as far as I am concerned.
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