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#301 | |
MR. Smartypants to you.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
![]() I believe people are free to worhsip as they like, but shouldn't be allowed to inflict their religion on others or use their religion as justification for their violence or immorality, or to justify laws that discriminate against others. One of the problems the world faces today is the political incorrectness associated with criticizing a person's religion. While it is OK in America today to condemn fundamentalist Moslems as terrorists, Moslem moderates who, while not likely to strap bombs to themselves and walk into a supermarket yet share the same faith that makes fundamentalists so dangerous, are off-limits for criticism. Same with Christian moderates vs. fundamentalists. I would not be so anti-Christian if I saw mass demonstrations of Christian moderates demanding an end to the overbearing influence of their fundamentalist brethren. And there' are BIG differences between homosexuality and Christianity that I hardly need to point out, but here are two of them: 1) One chooses one's religion; one does not choose one's sexual preference. (I should have a macro for that to save me so much re-typing!)
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"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith |
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#302 |
MR. Smartypants to you.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
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BTW, In case you(FTM or anyone else) do not believe that what is happening here is a little Christian jihad, look at the "REAL ID" Act that has already passed the US House and will soon by introduced in the Senate. Among its many alarming provisions for crushing fundamental rights and eliminating the need for due process in immigration issues, the bill makes deportable any person that supports a group that urges the use of force in any struggle. It applies retroactively to past actions, and it applies even if the person can prove that he or she never intended to support "terrorism."
This doesn't necessarily apply only to immigrants, but conceivably to native-born Americans, and if you look at the wording, it could easily apply to any moderate moslem who sent money to islamic relatives overseas or ever gave money to his/her mosque. Interesting, no? Put aside the general fascism being inspired by Bush's "War on Terror." Think about your religious freedom here. I don't think my opinions about religion are really what you should worry about, but the truly dangerous actions of your religious leaders.
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"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith |
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#303 | |
dalai clique
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: tea leaf towers - home of fine musical entertainment
Posts: 5,609
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Quote:
without any rational or logical reason, then yes. call me cold hearted if you will, but i want some scientific proof before i believe in something (apart from my football team, but i readily admit that that is irrational).
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the tea leaf family |
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#304 | |
left hanging
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: between the click of the light and the start of the dream
Posts: 10,071
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Quote:
Anyway, most people could no more be said to have chosen their religion than be said to have chosen their primary language. You might say that, somewhere along the line, I must have effectively made a choice to continue speaking English rather than Thai, but I would think that not-to-change doesn't require an explicit choice. |
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#305 |
MR. Smartypants to you.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
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Yeah, well, OK, but now we're splitting hairs. Let me re-phrase: Religion is an acquired knowledge, and therefore can be "un-learnt." One's sexuality is innate.
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"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith |
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#306 |
left hanging
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: between the click of the light and the start of the dream
Posts: 10,071
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What's a debate without the occasional splitting of hairs?
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#307 | |
MR. Smartypants to you.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
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"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith |
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#308 |
monkey
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 248
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Ok I normally don't bad mouth any religion but this just really bothered me:
https://sbminist.christianshost.com/appieshop/index.cgi WTF is so freakin different about "homosexuals"? I know I'm just reitterating things but like I said, I was really bothered by this. Where are the books entitled "Reaching the murderers" or "Stop the molestation the christian way" or "How to cope with not beating your child" or "10 ways to take care of your child when you are too lazy to do it yourself" or .... I think you get the idea. I'm sure some of these books are out there but why aren't they being pushed and publicized as much. I would think that there are much more pressing issues than that of someone's sexuality.
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I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -Douglas Adams In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams |
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#309 | |
MR. Smartypants to you.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
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Quote:
![]() This is just one of the many examples of people who use the bible as justification for the persecution of others. Clytie seems to dismiss it as unrepresentative because she doesn't identify with this kind of group. I'd still welcome an attempt to explain it from someone who takes her cues from the same pages. Clytie? Also, along the lines of my recent post, I think it's time religious moderates speak up loudly about this stuff. What do you thinnk would stop this kind of religious irrationality faster, a hue and cry from the gay community or pointed and strenuous objections from fellow Christians?
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"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith |
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#310 | |
monkey
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,608
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To answer your question in the last paragraph - pointed and strenuous objections from fellow christians. And probably not even that!
Chances are good that anyone who is set in their beliefs aren't going to be pursuaded to another view unless their open to another possibility in the first place (or they never really believed what they were following anyway). Throw in a little stubbornness, pride, ignorance, misinformation, or a lack of empathy, and changing someone else's mind seems damn near impossible. I'm not just talking about people who hold religious beliefs. I'm talking about people who think the Backstreet Boys are more talented than NSync or people who think Pepsi is better than coke. Most people have to come to a change of heart on their own. edit to add: I'm not a religious moderate - don't mean to butt in - but I just wanted to put in my two cents on that question. Quote:
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Knight 1: We are now no longer the Knights who say "Ni". Knight 2: NI! Other Knights: Shh.... Knight 1: We are now the Knights who say.... "Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG! Zoom-Boing! Z'nourrwringmm!" |
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#311 |
monkey
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 248
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Vive la Spongebob!
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I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -Douglas Adams In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams Last edited by shmitty : 03-10-2005 at 04:44 AM. |
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#312 |
dalai clique
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: tea leaf towers - home of fine musical entertainment
Posts: 5,609
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yes ws, i find that inflexibility one of the most depressing
parts of the whole thing. this 'i believe - end of story' attitude is just what we don't need. i do not believe that science has all the answers, the 'big bang' theory sounds as implausible as genesis to me, but at least scientists admit that. at least they know that everything is just a theory. wouldn't it be great if religious types would do the same. if they would say, 'well, i am going with this god theory for now, but if you can provide evidence to the contrary i may be persuaded'.
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the tea leaf family |
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#313 |
monkey
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 248
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Exactly. I wish everyone felt the same way you do. Unfortunately people, including some people in this forum, still argue that you are stupid if you believe the "God Theory" at all.
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I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -Douglas Adams In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams |
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#314 |
meretricious dilettante
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,068
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Purveyors of faith do not tend to couch their statements in allowing for evidence to the contrary. In fact, doubt is generally viewed as a personal failing, or according to more charitable views, a necessary but regrettable evil. You are not "good" at faith if you are allowing a back door. You have simply not yet "committed" yourself.
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Because how we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. -- Annie Dillard |
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#315 |
monkey
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Angband
Posts: 411
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One of the sales reps I deal with is a very interesting fellow, he is a christian who believes in evolution. I love to hold conversations with him, we have very similiar interests in literature. He is what I consider a "good christian" kind, friendly, tolerant of the beliefs of others and without hate for homosexuals. Do I think him a fool because he believes in a christian god, no, he is most definitely not a fool. My beef is with intolerant ignorant fools who cling to literal interpretations of the bible or any religion or philosophy. Skin heads, Klansmen, religious fundamentalists, Taliban etc are all the same kind of crazy as far as I am concerned.
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