mi·sog·y·ny

[nycwriters]

What is your definition of it? What do you consider tolerable (if anything) ... and what kind of tolerance should there be for the varying degrees of misogyny?

Or is it something fabricated? Does it even exist?

If it does are there concrete examples by which to determine a working definition ... thereby creating acceptance/denial of it?

[masterofNone]

i think misogyny begins at home.

[zenbabe]

I thought it was the hatred of women.

[masterofNone]

yep. home training.

[lapietra]

The problem with that (correct) definition is that if you accuse someone of being misogynistic, more than half the time they'll say, "But I *love* women!" (And the others will say, "Huh? No I'm not - I like massages...")

I do think it exists, just like racism exists. Most of the time it manifests as general disrespect for women, hardly ever outright hatred or fear of them.

It can be the difference between holding the door for a woman (which just as many women do for men, lately - it's just being polite) and treating her as if she doesn't have the ability to open the door for herself, that awkward sort of condescension that just broadcasts "I am the man here, I am in control; you are weaker, less intelligent, and I must take care of you." Very subtle. Very creepy. (Maybe it carries over from the times before women started going to college for something other than to find a spouse.)

It manifests in sexual harrassment. Unless there is an explicit understanding between a man and a woman, if everything a man says to a woman is innuendo, maybe not even about her but consistently sexual in nature, he's not treating her like a human being but as a receptacle for something she'd very likely rather not have any part in. Refusing to converse about something that isn't sexual in nature... well, it's probably also insecurity about their ability to "talk to a woman" but when they don't even try... eh.

It can manifest in jealous and controlling behavior, mild or violent. Also in expectations of what a woman should do for a man, what's "women's work".

It can manifest in men broadcasting their female "type" preferences in a way that is abusive to women's self esteem.
Also in the words men use to describe women and women's body parts. (Again, this is subjective... in some cases it's not offensive - actions often speak louder than words.)

I tolerate mild misogyny from men of a certain generation, especially if I know the relationship will be brief. I'm usually not one to confront; most of the time if a man behaves misogynistically, I'll find some way to disassociate from them... guys like that, it's often ingrained and I no longer have the desire to try to "fix" anyone.
Probably the best way to solve the problem is to enforce societal standards, insert certain messages in the media, and raise kids to understand that for the most part, with a few delightful exceptions, men and women are pretty much capable of doing whatever the other is capable of doing. And that's already happening... I think eventually the worst offenders will die off, anyway, since few women will want to sleep with them

[nycwriters]

What bothers me the most is "hidden" misogyny ... that which is used as a manipulation tool over women. Whether by mild insults that chip away and destroy ego, to outright abusive behavior.

What I don't understand is women who flock to it -- those that keep thinking "Oh, that's silly, I'll be the one who will change him. He just hasn't met someone like ME." But he has, likely over and over and over again -- and in reality that emotional motivation on the part of the woman is what the misogynist counts on, to continue his lewd, abrasive and abusive behavior.

It's often peppered with some sweet talk, "you understand me when so many others haven't" etc ... but over a period of time the bulk of the affectation is abusive/abrasive. And it is affectation.

And I agree with the sad pun that "misogyny begins at home." It does. It's learned behavior.

Lala (or anyone), what do you think escalates (let's call it) "mild" misogyny into full-blown rage?

And wouldn't jealous, controlling behavior be categorized as domestic violence? Or are the two terms synonymous? Hrm, that's something to ponder.

[lapietra]

Well... in answer to your first question (what escalates it to full-blown rage and acting out towards women, as opposed, perhaps, to just general boorishness) I think when a man is raised in a household with an abusive, demeaning, humiliating mother and capitulating father, he's very likely to end up with a seriously warped image of females. (I have some personal experience with that one... I'm not saying it's the *only* way a man could turn out that way, but it's definitely one of them.)

Regarding the second (whether jealous and controlling behavior is the same as domestic violence) I think, yeah, in some cases, definitely, although sometimes it happens in boss/employee relationships, where the boss is a man... And I suppose that could constitute sexual harassment, although the abuse isn't necessarily *sexual* in nature, but can be traced to gender. My first stepmother had a gay (male) boss who treated her horribly, while acting very chummy with the male employees... that's a rarity, I know (most of the gay men I know are wonderful to women) but it's a good example of non-sexual misogyny.

[pInKeLePhAnT]

this reminds me... a couple of years ago, there was a new kid and his dad at our school, and they were walking around meeting the teachers, and his dad made a comment to our female principal about how the boy had a problem with female authority figures. as if that wasn't learned behavior.

[Saxifrage]

I was raised by my grandmother, a very prim and proper retired school teacher. She taught me to be respectful and chivalrous to women and it still sticks with me to this day. I always hold doors open for women, not because I consider them weaker than myself but because I was taught that females should be held in a high regard. Having worked for several female supervisors in my life I have never had a problem with their authority, as a matter of fact I always did a better job for women than men because I sought their approval moreso than men. This had led some women to think I am chauvenistic but on the whole it has been mostly positive. I love strongwilled opinionated women and I am a strongwilled oppinionated man. In a relationship I consider us both to be equal in all things but I also desire to treat my love as a lady. Please tell me if I am wrong in this.

[lapietra]

Like I said - there's a big difference between a man who does nice, polite, chivalrous things and a man who does these things out of insecurity, fear and a need to control or dominate. Most women can tell the difference.

I *LOVE* being treated like a lady. It is a *huge* turn-on. I tend to treat men that I date like, well, men because I know it makes them feel good, which makes me feel good.
On the other hand, there's a time and a place... You wouldn't treat a female co-worker the same as you would your date (although some behaviors might cross over); although you should always be polite (i.e., it's *always* nice to hold the door for *anyone*, if you get there first) there are certain things that just come off weird...

It sounds like you know the difference, tho'. And graciousness is always appreciated, no matter what the motivation.

[Saxifrage]

Originally posted by lapietra
Like I said - there's a big difference between a man who does nice, polite, chivalrous things and a man who does these things out of insecurity, fear and a need to control or dominate. Most women can tell the difference.

I *LOVE* being treated like a lady. It is a *huge* turn-on. I tend to treat men that I date like, well, men because I know it makes them feel good, which makes me feel good.
On the other hand, there's a time and a place... You wouldn't treat a female co-worker the same as you would your date (although some behaviors might cross over); although you should always be polite (i.e., it's *always* nice to hold the door for *anyone*, if you get there first) there are certain things that just come off weird...

It sounds like you know the difference, tho'. And graciousness is always appreciated, no matter what the motivation.

I most certainly hold the door for anyone if it is appropriate (although I'd like to slam the door on the director of my department sometimes) and I was raised to be polite to others, courtesy is the building block of civilization. Thanks for the pleasant response

[Avalon]

Originally posted by Saxifrage
I was raised by my grandmother, a very prim and proper retired school teacher. She taught me to be respectful and chivalrous to women and it still sticks with me to this day. I always hold doors open for women, not because I consider them weaker than myself but because I was taught that females should be held in a high regard. Having worked for several female supervisors in my life I have never had a problem with their authority, as a matter of fact I always did a better job for women than men because I sought their approval moreso than men. This had led some women to think I am chauvenistic but on the whole it has been mostly positive. I love strongwilled opinionated women and I am a strongwilled oppinionated man. In a relationship I consider us both to be equal in all things but I also desire to treat my love as a lady. Please tell me if I am wrong in this.

You are not wrong. I love being treated like a lady. I feel that many women have taken things to the extreme and can no longer tell the difference between repect and chauvenism.
This subject is dear to my heart as my brothers were both taught to treat women as equals and with the greatest respect. One of the reasons my brother and I were so close was the fact that he loved and respected women as species as well as individuals.
MoN is right; it is early home training. I have always felt the reasons my brothers are such loving men is that they were well loved at home and saw women treated well and with respect. In turn, I have watched them teach their sons in the same way.

[lapietra]

Originally posted by Avalon
I feel that many women have taken things to the extreme and can no longer tell the difference between respect and chauvinism.

I agree... It's a real shame when men don't know what's "allowed" and what isn't, and end up becoming all twisted and/or wimpy...
A friend of mine was recently dating a guy who took the "anti-chauvinism" thing so far (in his understanding, anyway) that she felt completely alone and was never sure if they were dating or just two strangers going to the same places together. He never held the door for her, never opened her car side for her (that's one of my pet peeves - either open the door or, if I'm driving, *please* unlock my side, if you can, or at least try), never paid for a meal (*always* went Dutch)... They went on a road trip together, and he never offered to pay for the room or a meal or bought her a little gift... (I think she ended up paying for their rooms at one point... and trust me, this guy made about 4 times what my friend does). I mean, that's just *cheap* and inconsiderate, if you ask me. She felt the same way, and when she finally confronted him about it, he made some kind of lame excuse about not knowing what was appropriate. How hard can it be? If you like someone, do nice things for them!

[Loui]

I think there's been a drift away from the original discussion (like that's never happened) from misogyny to sexism.

Or might I infer you all (for the most part) agree that they are one and the same or that the difference between the two is a matter of degree?

[nycwriters]

A smart woman will recognize a measure of respect, over a lecherous move. And in turn, respect will be given back.

I consider myself a hybrid feminist: I like my doors opened, I like my meals paid for, occassionally ... but I'm not above doing the same in return. I also like my opinions respected and interacted with, and I don't like to be given any "advantages/considerations" because I'm female. If we're on an intellectual plane, I consider it even playing ground, no matter who you are.

It's sad that I have to broach a conversation about misogyny with my personal definition of feminism, but some (ironically those guilty misogynists) have twisted the true meaning of feminism into some nasty terminization. Meaning; you cannot be a strong woman without being perceived as a bitch, or there's something wrong with you -- which, to me, is one of the most henious acts of misogyny out there -- undermining.

I think the base of it is that if you treat all sexes with respect, you can't go wrong.

There is a huge difference between a gentleman who opens the door for you out of respect for you as a person, and an asshole who opens the door for you to get a good look at your ass as you pass by (and comments on it or leers).