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Old 09-16-2003, 07:16 PM   #31
malina
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ok i misunderstood! it just stuck in my head and i was wondering how she meant it. i can relate to the way you put it and agree.
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Old 09-17-2003, 08:31 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by dickieC
Chuckie: It's a deadly Sin!!!!!!
All sins are deadly actually. Pride, a sin? Depends what it is your proud of I suppose.
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Old 09-17-2003, 09:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by malina
i have reservations about taking credit ( feeling pride ) for someone else's work.

maybe it's a matter of definition. i can understand feeling pride for someone. what catbelly said before about being proud of your kids, your siblings, etc. makes sense.

but can i only be proud of the *white* people that came before me because *i* am white?
Sure why not?

I know what you're getting at...

'White Pride' Usually associated with Nazism and all that garbage.

Difference between those and TRUE pride...is pride doesn't come at the exclusion of others.

Nothing wrong with being proud of a heritage you've inherited.

Parents are proud of their kids for their accomplishments.

Kids are proud of their parents for theirs.

Sisters and brothers proud of each other...

So it isn't that much of a stretch to be proud of the heritage and respect the people that came before you and paved a better way for you.
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Old 09-17-2003, 11:41 AM   #34
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see, i disagree. that has a lot to do with my heritage.

being born and raised in germany, there is absolutely NOTHING to be proud of ( in terms of heritage ). this is probably the very reason why patriotism is such a touchy topic with me. i was just reading allegro's post in the other thread ( re hitler ) and i agree 100%. it doesn't start with a madman shouting insane speeches and killing millions! it starts in very subtle ways. this pride in heritage, race and nationality is exactly what hitler used to bait people when he had the opportunity and there was nothing else to believe in.

i spent many many years of my life being utterly ashamed to be german. i have lived outside of germany for the past 20 years and in the beginning it was very hard for me to 'admit' where i'm coming from when people asked. i have a different viewpoint now. i can appreciate many things about my country, there are things that i like and things that i miss. i will never be a canadian - just because i'm not. it's not a judgment but a fact. i'm neither proud nor ashamed to be german, i just am. that's a fact too. it has no importance in my life.

this is not to say that anyone who displays a certain pride in their heritage is a nazi - please don't get me wrong! as always, there are many shades of grey between white and black ( no pun intended! ).
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Old 09-17-2003, 11:50 AM   #35
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Pride and nationalism are one side of a huge swath of emotions, not least of which is merely "belonging" to a certain group. If I meet other Brits we instantly have discussion and view points from our collective youth and the common strains we all share. It is not my everyday life, but it is there. You must experience similar feelings when meeting other people of common backgrounds. You dont have to be proud, but everyone wants to share with others. Being from the same country of birth and upbringing is a very easy thread to hold onto.
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Old 09-17-2003, 01:01 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by malina
being born and raised in germany, there is absolutely NOTHING to be proud of ( in terms of heritage ). this is probably the very reason why patriotism is such a touchy topic with me. i was just reading allegro's post in the other thread ( re hitler ) and i agree 100%. it doesn't start with a madman shouting insane speeches and killing millions! it starts in very subtle ways. this pride in heritage, race and nationality is exactly what hitler used to bait people when he had the opportunity and there was nothing else to believe in.
First, Germany produced greater things than Hitler.

German engineering (unfortunately exploited by Hitler) for one. The rich cultural history, lederhosen (heh)...

I lived in Germany...there is more to that country's history than Hitler.

Much like there is more to the United States history than slavery or the subjugation of the native american.

Doesn't mean because of the bad you over look the good.

I feel that's the flip side of the coin for people who ONLY want to look at the good and not focus on the bad.

I enjoy the history of this country. I'm proud to be American, have African heritage, I'm a proud Detroiter, I love the city of my childhood.

Quote:
i spent many many years of my life being utterly ashamed to be german. i will never be a canadian - just because i'm not. it's not a judgment but a fact. i'm neither proud nor ashamed to be german, i just am. that's a fact too. it has no importance in my life.[/b]
I really disagree with people being ashamed of who they are.

I'm glad you worked through that. Cause I think it's a waste of time for people to beat themselves up over what they have no control over.

As to your last point of saying, "*shrug* I couldn't care less either way", well then all of this just comes down to a difference of opinion.

It's something that in your life carries little weight.

I just gave you a different prespective on why someone would think it was important.
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Old 09-17-2003, 01:09 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Malevolent
First, Germany produced greater things than Hitler.
German engineering (unfortunately exploited by Hitler) for one. The rich cultural history, lederhosen (heh)...
i have NOTHING to do with that! why be proud of it?

Quote:
I lived in Germany...there is more to that country's history than Hitler.
i lived in germany too. i know that.

Quote:
As to your last point of saying, "*shrug* I couldn't care less either way", well then all of this just comes down to a difference of opinion. It's something that in your life carries little weight. I just gave you a different prespective on why someone would think it was important.
i respect your view and i don't force my views on other people ( i hope you didn't get that impression ).
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Old 09-17-2003, 03:07 PM   #38
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dinz made a very good point.

when I was living outside of America, many people would automatically assign me characteristics according to my nationality once they learned it. Fourth of July, depending on the crowd, was either treated like a second birthday for me or a day to bring up grievances toward my country of birth.

I never fostered nor discounted these reactions from others, because to me, it was more interesting to see their reaction than it was for me to share my beliefs about America.

Nationality is an easy, common conversation piece between travelers, just as where are you going and where have you been. Some use it as a part of their identity. Others choose to use other facets to distinguish themselves or be tied to other groups. But almost always, people will ask. It's a quick, dirty way to place someone.

And yes, there have been times when I've told people on the road that I'm Canadian- mostly because I don't want to deal with the laughter, jokes or yet another tirade.

They just ask "Where's your maple leaf?"
"Tattooed on my bum, just like everyone else."
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Old 09-17-2003, 04:30 PM   #39
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Malina, thanks for telling us that about your upbringing - a lot of the things you said make more sense now that I can see where you're coming from. My question for you now is, if you could be so ashamed.... why can't you be proud? They are flip sides of the same issue. Have you divorced yourself so far from Germany and all you associate with it that you are denying both the shame and the pride? Just a thought.

LOL about the maple leaf on the bum, amanda!
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Old 09-17-2003, 06:59 PM   #40
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exactly! they're flip sides of the same issue.

i haven't divorced myself from anything, i just don't put importance on where i'm born, it's not something that's important to me and it doesn't make sense for me to be proud of my birth country ( or the country i live in now ). that doesn't mean i'm denying anything. it doesn't have to be one or the other.
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Old 09-17-2003, 09:19 PM   #41
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Having an appreciation for someone or something is different than feeling proud of it. If that’s true, the antipositive is also true. So then it’s possible to appreciate aspects of German culture while not feeling any pride or shame in being German. Is that what you mean, Malina?
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Old 09-17-2003, 09:39 PM   #42
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Sorry Malina, not trying to pop-psych you it just seemed curious to me that you seemed to be adamant about both things.

This is all so interesting... will miss the discussions, going travelling for 10 days - to places in Canada I've never been, no less! May come back with earth-shattering comments

later taters
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Old 09-17-2003, 11:37 PM   #43
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catbelly: yes i do feel pretty strongly about that. i also enjoy your comments very much since you are not condescending and actually respond to what people are saying. i like that. it's a pleasure to talk to you.
have a great vacation!

rob: you got it!
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Old 10-16-2003, 06:06 PM   #44
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Aha! I knew I was forgetting something... meant to report back on my trip to Montreal. It was my first time visiting Quebec. I went with my husband, also his first time. Neither of us are fluent in French - I can usually make myself understood, but I have a hard time understanding because normal convo speed is too fast for my ear, and my vocab is really small.

Anyway.... we had an amazing time! Language wasn't an issue, which sort of surprised me - for those of you not familiar, there is a bit of an english-french divide in Canada. Politically, but also sometimes personally - non-french speaking people sometimes have a bug up their arse about french speakers, and vice versa. I'm totally oversimplifying, but anyway ... I was expecting to perhaps get a bit of attitude in Montreal about not being able to speak french, and we didn't.

My hubby said something interesting while we were there, though - that it felt like a different country to him. It really surprised me - I didn't feel that way at all. I think it was the language difference, maybe because while I am not fluent, he is very very not familiar - hello and goodbye, that's about it. I'm really curious - especially for those who live in Europe - what do you think of this? Is language as much of a ... what is the word ... signifier for you? Do you identify with your language or your country, or are they almost the same thing to you? Is your language synonymous with your culture?
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Old 10-16-2003, 11:07 PM   #45
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Yes.

Example: the US constitution was written in English.

US laws are written in English.

US signage, excepting Koreatown, Chinatown, etc. is in English.

The major newspapers in the US are written in English.

The national media in the US is almost all in English.

etc, etc, blah blah blah.
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