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Old 09-13-2003, 11:24 PM   #16
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yeah i'm not going to venture here
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Old 09-14-2003, 04:35 PM   #17
rapscalious rob
 
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Re: moel

You make a good point, moel.

I guess youíre right -- science doesnít hold all the ultimate answers. It just provides us with tools for understanding the world around us. Tools that eventually are replaced with changes in our understanding. Have you read about this guy, Nietos, who is disputing Newtonís idea of gravity to explain dark matter and a bunch of other quirky stuff?

Maybe itís best not to take anything too seriously; even the hallowed halls of science.
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Old 09-14-2003, 04:52 PM   #18
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I'm always surprised when Americans debate atheism (this is not my usual gentle dig at Americans; I do mean surprised). It seems so much more of a big deal over there. In the UK only about 1 mn people go to Church of England services regularly (there are of course a good number of people attending other Christian services and faiths too) but in the USA it does seem a bit of a conversation-stopper to say you're an atheist. Much more of an affirmative statement. Whereas here it seems to be nothing of note.

Maybe that's just the guys I hang out with...
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Old 09-14-2003, 05:03 PM   #19
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My dad used to be Athiest, all growing up. Now he is agnostic..funny how the older you get, the more you might tend to lean.....just in case...
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Old 09-14-2003, 05:51 PM   #20
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My ex is an astrophysicist, and he believes in god. Doesn't find the two streams of thought (religion / creation and hard science) inconsistent - I think he believes that the bible is not literal. I know that not all christians are into that, but whatever - beliefs are very personal IMO.

As an aside, astrology and astronomy are very different pursuits
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Old 09-14-2003, 06:36 PM   #21
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rob- i haven't read about that guy, but i sure will. I love this stuff.

you know, you can throw around the antropic principle, the 'no-boundary proposal', sum of all histories.. and so on, but to me, in the end, it's seems about as reasonable as the idea of a god. Then again, how many things in our world that seem so amazing and unbelievable.. do we actually understand... perhaps it is just a matter of time... oh yes, time, another reason we may never know.
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Old 09-14-2003, 07:05 PM   #22
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Re: Re: moel

Oh, one more thing
Quote:
Originally posted by rapscalious rob
You make a good point, moel.

I guess youíre right -- science doesnít hold all the ultimate answers.
But what if it did? What if it's just waiting to be found? Look how far it has come! From Ptolemy to Planck... of course the same questions exist as always... and more questions are created as infinitly as the subject seems...

If you tried to explain quantum chromodynamics or even the uncertainty principle to someone living in Ptolemys time... what do you think there thoughts would be? Why that's crazy talk.

This is why i'd rather think about why we want to know... why is it necessary? Like it's built into us. Do you think we are the only creatures that think about this? is that not extremely naive?

Last edited by moel : 09-14-2003 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 09-14-2003, 07:29 PM   #23
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I think the quest for knowledge is built into us - it used to be a survival mechanism. The person who could figure things out was the person who survived.

IMO it was a natural progression from figuring out the tangible world to attempting to do the same with the intangible.

Re: knowledge, no matter how much we know about a leaf, it's still a leaf at the end of the day. We can bring in any number of disciplines to explain the processes, the colours, the behaviours... but it's still a leaf. Anyway. My point is, the amount of knowledge to be gained is infinite (or might as well be). If it exists, will knowing the ultimate truth change our universe? Is the road to the truth through quantity of knowledge?

I don't think so - it might change the universe for *us* because we are able to perceive it differently.

What do you mean about being naive, Moel? That we're naive to think we're the only "thinkers"?
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Old 09-14-2003, 08:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
originally posted by catbelly
Re: knowledge, no matter how much we know about a leaf, it's still a leaf at the end of the day. We can bring in any number of disciplines to explain the processes, the colours, the behaviours... but it's still a leaf. Anyway. My point is, the amount of knowledge to be gained is infinite (or might as well be). If it exists, will knowing the ultimate truth change our universe? Is the road to the truth through quantity of knowledge?
That sounds (reads) very Taoist to me. My dadís a Taoist.

Moel: Do you mean the only earthly creatures, or do you mean that parrots, dolphins, and chimpanzees might think about these types of things also? Itís true that we bear remarkable genetic similarity to the chimpanzee and the bonobo. Do you think our attavistic search for god is part of a genetically-influenced sequence of thinking patterns that began in early primates? Thatís an interesting idea. What do we know about the gods of our earliest ancesters?
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:09 PM   #25
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Yes, as though it's innate. Is it just a by-product of some early survival mechanism?
Has it become stronger with evolution?

It's not through quantity of knowledge, but where that knowledge may lead.

Everything we think, was once a thought.
Everything we know, was once a thought.
Seen through our eyes, created in thought.

Do we not create our own reality? Are we even in charge of that? Is it not possible we aren't meant or even allowed to know?

Last edited by moel : 09-14-2003 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 09-15-2003, 04:08 AM   #26
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Quote:
moel:Do we not create our own reality? Are we even in charge of that? Is it not possible we aren't meant or even allowed to know?


Do you mean that our genetically-ingrained thought patterns
place constraints on and get in the way of our free will and
understanding of the universe?
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:12 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by moel
i don't know if i'd call it a responsibility. Maybe a responsiblity to accept your own beliefs.. and that others will have their own aswell. I don't think it's any ones responsibility to "enlighten" anyone.
Of course its a responsibility! Look at it from a believers point of view. I believe I'll be saved when I die. It REALLY grieves me to know that others might not.

This was a good analogy I once heard... not telling people would be like having a cure for cancer, but keeping it to yourself.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:46 AM   #28
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I can understand your point of view chuckie. Problems start when christians try to save me with force! And when believs meet with law and censure, like it happens in catholic countries.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:53 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by chuckie egg
Of course its a responsibility! Look at it from a believers point of view. I believe I'll be saved when I die. It REALLY grieves me to know that others might not.

This was a good analogy I once heard... not telling people would be like having a cure for cancer, but keeping it to yourself.
are you saying that people who don't share your beliefs are ill?
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Old 09-15-2003, 04:20 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by rapscalious rob


Do you mean that our genetically-ingrained thought patterns
place constraints on and get in the way of our free will and
understanding of the universe?
i do believe this. taken from a psychological point of view, the human being does nothing but react to his surroundings automatically. some is inherited, some is baked into the genes, some is socially adapted behavior. very interesting, especially if you keep the mating process in mind.

if human beings would know everything there was to know, what would be the use of living? man would die. curiosity may have killed the cat, but it is a genetical survival skill for human beings.
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