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Old 03-19-2003, 01:46 AM   #31
rmr
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I want to thank you both for two great posts. The information and opinion you provided is truly thought provoking.

I can't say that my mind is changed at this moment, but I'm definitely going to give your points much thought.

Thanks again.

PS I'm even more impressed by the tactful way you both handled a difference of opinion. I think that says quite a bit about the two of you as people.
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Old 03-19-2003, 09:08 AM   #32
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one of my favorite phrases is "this is something over which reasonable people can disagree."


if it doesn't apply to this situation it doesn't apply to anything.
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Old 03-19-2003, 09:33 AM   #33
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MoN, it's not true that the USA has never acted aggressively towards other countries in the past. It did so regularly in the nineteenth century, against the Native American First Nations, against Mexico, and against Spain, amongst others.

Then in the 1930s, despite the idea of isolationism, there was extensive involvement in the Caribbean, in Latin America and in the Persian Gulf, some of it covert. Isolationism as a doctrine was really about avoiding getting involved in European and East Asian alliance systems that might have triggered US involvement in a war not on its own terms. Pearl Harbour changed all that, of course.

During the Cold War, the USA had massive covert aggressive intent in the Third World, ranging from Guatamala and the Lebanon in 1958, CIA support for the assassination of Patrice Lumumba in the Congo in 1961, CIA support for the Cuban 'Bay of Pigs' debacle also in 1961, support for the South African invasion of Angola in 1975, sales of napalm and other nasty weapons to the Portuguese dictatorship for use against left-wing nationalist movements in Angola and Mozambique in the 1960s and early 1970s, invasions of Grenada in 1983, Panama in 1989... Not to mention the Iran-Contra scandal, support for the mujahadeen (including the Taliban) in Afghanistan, the Iraqi regime against the Iranian revolution in 1982 onwards.... This was the high point of what historians have called the Imperial Presidency, brought low by the Vietnam conflict.

All these things were part and parcel of the hot side of the Cold War. What's different now is that the Republicans now want to exercise this power overtly AND WITHOUT BEING BOUND BY INTERNATIONAL COALITIONS and the UN. What makes me so angry is that Britain is conferring a spurious legitimacy on this action by trying to make it look like it's an international coalition of the willing when we should be trying to expose the exercise of US power for what it is.
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Old 03-19-2003, 12:44 PM   #34
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This is something about which reasonable people can disagree. It shouldn't surprise anyone that American History books don't see it the same way as perhaps European history books do.
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Old 03-19-2003, 01:18 PM   #35
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maybe it's just me...

but i keep thinking if you were to split open the back and ribcage of Dubya you'd find an antenna and a lot of circuits and blinking lights.

my question is...

who has the remote?

-st.
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Old 03-19-2003, 03:57 PM   #36
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oooh! and it's thirty percent off.

-st.
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Old 03-20-2003, 03:04 PM   #37
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Hey dickie, our conversation inspired me to do some research on the Spanish American War... here's a timeline

it's still kind of unclear to me. It looks like everybody was behaving badly, but it looks like Spain declared war first.
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Old 03-20-2003, 05:56 PM   #38
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It's not something I know a hell of a lot about myself, but from what I do know it seems the USA used the explosion of the USS Maine (we now think it was caused by coal dust igniting explosively in the ship's bunkers owing to a design fault, not to Spanish sabotage as was widely thought at the time) and the war with Cuban rebels as a pretext to seize what was left of the Spanish possessions in the Caribbean and the Philippines.

It was during the conflict on Cuba that American forces instigated concentration camps for civilians (a year before that policy was pursued by Lord Kitchener in the Anglo-South African War). And for nearly 20 years the USA was an old-fashioned colonial power in the Philippines; of course, it still is in the case of Puerto Rico.
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Old 03-22-2003, 03:03 PM   #39
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Thats the exact reason Bush is doing it to ensure the next nut isn't one! Sadam is getting on in years now and may soon be deceased and no we dont want Osama and his undercover gang to have any kind of access seeing as they do not mind suicide whos to say their next intention is a global one.
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Old 03-22-2003, 07:38 PM   #40
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Had we not funded, equipped and trained Saddam and his men, he wouldn't be here today. Kind of like when Dr. Frankenstein brought his creation to life...took a couple of steps back and (I'm paraphrasing here) said "oh shit, we're gonna need to get rid of that".
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Old 03-23-2003, 05:32 PM   #41
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Give a man a weapon and train him HOW to use it but you can't train him to WANT to use it.
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Old 03-23-2003, 11:28 PM   #42
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d

Last edited by Arif-ul Haq : 02-06-2007 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 03-24-2003, 05:12 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arif-ul Haq
. . . but perhaps Geneva Conventions would be respected with regard to our troops if our country followed Geneva Conventions.
well said.
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Old 03-24-2003, 08:17 PM   #44
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I found it odd that they made such a huge deal about the interrogation on TV. Weren't we just discussing wether or not to torture a prisoner a couple of weeks ago to get the information we wanted? True it was a terrorist type, but it still seems odd.
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Old 03-24-2003, 09:10 PM   #45
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even odder that they are calling the display of american POWs on the tube "clear violation of the Geneva Convention". Two days ago I was watching MSNBC with my kid and they were poking the camera in the face of bound Iraqi POWs. This becomes increasingly bizarre.
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