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Old 02-21-2005, 12:50 PM   #61
Saxifrage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig johnston
good point aphro. i agree entirely.
maybe he's just got 'flu or something.
i hope he comes back though.
He was taken up by a fiery chariot, onward to glory!
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:27 PM   #62
Clytie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartypants
Clytie, that sort of skirts the question. You seem pretty sure the Bible teaches acceptance, while many others believe it teaches just the opposite. You seem as steadfast in your conviction of the Bible's instruction as those others do. Who's right here?

Regardless, why is it so important that acceptance and equality be justified (or not) by the Bible? What's wrong with doing right by one's fellow man, just because it's the decent thing -- Word of God or not?
I dont think I skirted the question at all. I may not be as eloquate as Smitty or as clear...but the God does love everyone. At times I cannot grasp it entirely...and of course things dont make sense to me...but that doesnt mean I stop believing it. Just like advanced Trig... i may not be able to understand it...or explain it at all...but this does not take away the validity of it. Trig still exsists even if i cant expound upon it. Id like to refer you to the sermon on the mount... Jesus teaches to love your neighbor as yourself...and not only that but to love your enemies. (Matt 5:43-46)

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you,Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:37 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphrodite
I kind of feel bad for Clytie.
She was encouraged to feel safe standing to debate with someone supposedly there beside her to discuss her viewpoint.
Instead, she is left to do it alone. I will not participate in debating her as a group against a single. It doesn't seem fair.

Thanx Aphro...im tryin to answer questions as best i can... im not sure where Tiki has gone off too...and I dun claim to know all the answers. But i can tell you my credentials... I think it was smarty that wanted to know what authority Tiki had. anyways... I studyed Bible for 5 years at a Bible college. Hopefully at the end of next year I will have earned my Bachelors in Bible(not all of my credits count towards the degree...I took alot of classes just to learn) I do borrow my brains from other ppl as well.... My brother and best friend recently graduated from Bible College. (my brother majored in Bible...my best friend majored in Theology and minored in Greek) Both are going on to further their degrees.

I dont feel that I am always right. But I do believe the Bible and I will do my best to explain it
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:58 PM   #64
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I have liked the way you answered a lot of people's questions, Clytie, because your answers generally speak to your faith, and this makes sense. Faith allows for a lot of ambiguity, by definition, and doesn't need "answers" for everything. I still haven't sorted out whether people of faith (of any faith) are labouring under some fantastic alteration of brain chemistry, or whether they're fortunate and gifted.
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Old 02-21-2005, 07:57 PM   #65
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i really envy people who believe in god. it must be a
fantastic feeling to be sure that you are going to live
on after death, even if it does mean hanging around
in heaven with all the other goodie-goodies. my scientific
point of view promises me nothing after death, which
isn't very comforting at all.
i don't envy christians and moslems their guilt feelings
though. that must be a terrible burden.
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clytie
I dont think I skirted the question at all. I may not be as eloquate as Smitty or as clear...but the God does love everyone. At times I cannot grasp it entirely...and of course things dont make sense to me...but that doesnt mean I stop believing it. Just like advanced Trig... i may not be able to understand it...or explain it at all...but this does not take away the validity of it. Trig still exsists even if i cant expound upon it. Id like to refer you to the sermon on the mount... Jesus teaches to love your neighbor as yourself...and not only that but to love your enemies. (Matt 5:43-46)

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you,Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
Clytie,

I'm sorry my choice of word was wrong. You may not have skirted the questions, but you haven't answered them. I am not asking you to confirm your personal conviction, which you have expressed clearly and repeatedly. Rather than reword my questions, I will just re-post them as I asked them earlier. I am sincerely interested in your answers. Reciting the Sermon on the Mount as a response is not terribly informative:

1. You seem pretty sure the Bible teaches acceptance, while many others believe it teaches just the opposite. You seem as steadfast in your conviction of the Bible's instruction as those others do. Who's right here?

2. Regardless, why is it so important that acceptance and equality be justified (or not) by the Bible? What's wrong with doing right by one's fellow man, just because it's the decent thing -- Word of God or not?
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Old 02-21-2005, 09:24 PM   #67
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I'm going to take a swing at this Smarty. Why? Because I can be objective when I feel like it.

1. You seem pretty sure the Bible teaches acceptance, while many others believe it teaches just the opposite. You seem as steadfast in your conviction of the Bible's instruction as those others do. Who's right here?

The Bible is open for interpretation by man who has flaws. Acceptance must come from within. The Bible teaches acceptance, but doesn't give clear and detailed instructions on how. Even acceptance must have limits or we would accept wrong as right. Even the Bible is susceptible to flaws given that it was written by multiple people, and then translated time and again. The word of God itself is flawless.

2. Regardless, why is it so important that acceptance and equality be justified (or not) by the Bible? What's wrong with doing right by one's fellow man, just because it's the decent thing -- Word of God or not?

Acceptance and equality are two different things. The Bible is to be a guide for the people to follow the teachings of God. There is nothing wrong with doing right by man. The Bible doesn't say not to be decent to fellow man any where does it? It teaches us to love our brothers, our neighbours, and our enemies, and to teach them the word of God through thought, word, and deed.

It is interpretation which seems to create very noticeable differences in the practices of different Christian religions, and people. Some Christian religions are very open to change and some are not. It is up to the individual to practice the form of Christianity they feel is the right one.
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Old 02-21-2005, 09:32 PM   #68
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thanx Aphro...heres my take...

1. of course i would have to say Im right...only a fool would say the thing they openly believe is wrong... "yes I believe a lie... lalalala" thats just silly. i do not understand why they believe what they believe. Im not even certain of all that they DO believe. So its hard for me to say.. they are all liars and im the good guy. i can tell u that i believe my viewpoint of the Bible is correct. When I study the Bible I use the ‘grammatical-historical’ interpretation method. or ‘exegesis’ (critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, esp. of the Bible) Meaning when I read the words of Scripture, and I interpret them on the basis of context and the type of literature —reading out of Scripture what the writer clearly intended to express.
Martin Luther said: ‘ … I have often said that whoever would study Holy Scripture should be sure to see to it that he stays with the simple words as long as he can and by no means departs from them unless an article of faith compels him to understand them differently. For of this we must be certain: no simpler speech has been heard on Earth than what God has spoken.


2. How can you do right...when you do not have an absolute right that you are judging from...? absolute truth is something that i have been studying for sometime now...I could cut and paste everything that i have found but that would be lengthy. my views and conclusions line up with this article. give it a read. any absolutes?
thanx
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Last edited by Clytie : 02-21-2005 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 02-21-2005, 09:40 PM   #69
Clytie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig johnston
i really envy people who believe in god. it must be a
fantastic feeling to be sure that you are going to live
on after death, even if it does mean hanging around
in heaven with all the other goodie-goodies. my scientific
point of view promises me nothing after death, which
isn't very comforting at all.
i don't envy christians and moslems their guilt feelings
though. that must be a terrible burden.
what do u mean guilt?
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your star shaped heart
has reached out to me
and together our hearts beat as one
bound by the rich red that runs coarsing
united we stand
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Old 02-22-2005, 12:38 AM   #70
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[quote=trisherina]I have liked the way you answered a lot of people's questions, Clytie, because your answers generally speak to your faith, and this makes sense. QUOTE]

What she said.

"Once while in Australia for a speaking engagement, I was engaged in dinner conversation with a medical student. "What is the subject of your lecture series?" he asked. "Ethics," I replied. "What is that?" he inquired. I took a moment to recover from my shock. Here was a bright young man about to enter a profession involving some of the major ethical decisions of our time who did not even know what ethics was! "

^^

Ha.
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Old 02-22-2005, 01:51 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clytie
How can you do right...when you do not have an absolute right that you are judging from...?
While it's heartening to know that some find the Bible full of instruction on how to be good (or "ethical," if you prefer), there are a vast number who use it to justify what I -- and you, too -- would consider despicable and highly unethical behavior.

The really frightening thing is the idea that without your handbook for "absolute right," nothing would prevent even currently GOOD Christians from doing bad -- and that non-Christians have NEVER had the tools necessary to behave ethically in the world. As I've said before, your Christian trust in man's capacity for evil is truly disheartening. (Or, rather is it that you think they haven't the capacity to understand good?)

Do you really feel that without the bible, most Christians' ethics would fly out the window? Is this why fundamentalist Christians are so afraid of discovering man's origins through science? That if God's existence is proven false, if we find that without doubt our little earth is spinning alone in the universe, that suddenly all Christians, without their perfect moral compass, would have no basis for honesty and decency, and we would all rape and murder each other?

If only Christians placed as much faith in the goodness of their fellow man as they did in the God they've conjured up to explain the world to them!
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Old 02-22-2005, 04:06 AM   #72
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^^^What he said.

I know a large number of Christians who are terrible assholes, and nothing could convince me to trade places with them. I know more opportunistic jerks of every Christian denomination than I can count.

And yet I have a fundamental sense of right and wrong. And I don't need a book to explain it to me. When someone questions my motives, I tell them exactly what I'm thinking, and I don't have to point to any book to justify it.

To think that it is necessary to bring to the entire world the word of the Bible in order to have peace is to (a) have an incredible superiority complex, and (b) to have a disturbing distrust in human nature.

To borrow a phrase from an ironic source, it's ashes to ashes and dust to dust. Or, as my mother would say, que serra serra: what will be, will be.
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Old 02-22-2005, 08:02 AM   #73
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You might also want to consider this, when considering your bible's "absolute truths." It is Christian interpretation of these truths that form the basis for fundamentalist intolerance. Violence against gays, the bombing of abortion clinics, the death penalty, antisemitism -- even slavery -- have all been justified by those who believe the bible, through its documentation of God's word as absolute truth, justifies their own cruelty.

Geisler's insistence (in the article Clytie linked to above) that the only route to truly ethical behavior is through the absolute truths in the Bible is pure hooey. I see Geisler's so-called absolute truths as a true obstacle to genuinely ethical behavior, acceptance, tolerance for diversity, and love of one's fellow man.

The more I read about Geisler's brand of fundamentalist absolutes, the more dangerous I think Christian teachings can be.
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Old 02-22-2005, 09:28 AM   #74
craig johnston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clytie
what do u mean guilt?
well, original sin etc.
the first thing that happens in the bible after god has
created everything is that humans f*ck up. they get
randy and that messes it all up for the rest of us forever.

that's just not going to promote a healthy attitude towards
sex imo.

then there's all that other sinning we do every day. you know
the stuff that leads to the fiery pits of hell etc. seems like
you can't turn around without sinning.

and to top it off i gotta go around with the knowledge that
jesus died for my sins.
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Old 02-24-2005, 12:10 AM   #75
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Actually, regarding bringing others to faith: the liberal interpretation of that (both Christian and Islamic, I don't know enough about other faiths to say) is that this is "His" job, not ours. The responsibility of the faithful is not to propound, then, but to live by example such that people will be drawn to faith. This is the case even in a great deal of "mission" work: the aim is to help people in need, and to live out faith by example while doing so, and to be available to school others in the faith should they be drawn to it as a result. This view takes responsibility for "conversion" out of human hands and puts it back in "His" hands, where liberal Christians and Muslims believe it more rightly belongs.
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