This is the thread where randomness is called into question - ZEFRANK.COM

1kookykat · 03-10-2003, 10:38 PM

induction n. Logic reasoning from particular facts or individual cases to a general conclusion; also, a conclusion reached by such reasoning: distinguished from deduction

-------------------------------------

Why do we assume (take for granted?) the validity of induction if we believe (?) the universe is "random"?

We have no doubt that the toothpaste will come out of the tube when we squeeze it in the morning.

But in a chance universe, squeezing the tube could just as likely cause it to disappear, explode, recite Beowolf, or turn into a 900ton Fig Newton.

What justification do we have to assume the regularity of nature?

masterofNone · 03-10-2003, 10:57 PM

often chaos is mislabeled "random". my favorite example of this is when static is called random. In fact if it were random, from time to time pure tones would be generated in static. the uniformity of the absence of signal provides a window into the underlying structure of static. that structure has become known as chaos. snow is another example. if snowfall were random, every now and then it would fall out of the sky in bricks or balls or at the very least big amorphous clumps. but snow isn't any more random then static.

1kookykat · 03-10-2003, 11:08 PM

Hah! Knew you would come out for this one, Mr. Rick.

What is true randomness?

beckstra · 03-10-2003, 11:43 PM

my left butt cheek is covered in hives...

must be those stupid bees again.

masterofNone · 03-10-2003, 11:56 PM

i'm not sure i believe in true randomness. that is a question whose underpinnings are like the question of "which came first, the chicken, or the egg?" on it's face it seems a question of circular logic but it becomes a query into one's belief in creationism or evolution. If one believes in creationism then the chicken came first because God created the animals and therefore the chickens which went on to lay eggs. If one believes in evolution then the egg came first because the ancestor of the chicken layed eggs before it was classifiable as a "chicken". It was, we suppose, a dinosaur of some sort that layed eggs that one day led to chickens. (also kind of settles the question of why everything tastes like chicken... if everything evolved from the same dino ancestor then it's not so much that everything tastes like chicken... everything INCLUDING chicken tastes like dinosaurs.)

is anything truly random? not if there is a consciousness running the show. not if there is a God.

1kookykat · 03-11-2003, 06:44 AM

Noel - I'm not worried about the integrity of the thread. Talking philosophy or just screwing around, whatever. Personally, I like to mix them up and have a good time. After all, I'm not going to "save" anyone's soul.

beckstra - Were there bees in Ze's soup? (Did I miss something?) This fixation you have with your own butt is making us all curious. It must be very special indeed. Won't you share it with us? Got a webcam? C'mon Sister, show us the goods!

RedPrincess - Sorry abut the following use of semicolons; I happen to like them.

I don't want to make any pretense of "sneaking in the back door" to talk about God. Yes, I believe that the sun will come up tomorrow and the toothpaste will squirt out of the tube because there is no randomness; there is a God who maintains the regularity or uniformity of nature. What viable alternative propositions have naturalistic or materialistic scientists/philosophers come up with to answer the question of induction?

Maybe there are some out there, I don't know. But the viability (acceptability) of a proposition depends on one's most basic foundational commitments; one's core beliefs.

Which, by their very nature, must be self-authorizing or circular. That's right, we ALL reason in a circle, ultimately.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

A good steak doesn't taste like chicken.

rmr · 03-11-2003, 02:40 PM

All I can say is that I agree that a good steak doesn't taste like chicken.

Red Princess · 03-11-2003, 05:12 PM

out damn semi colon!!!! make 2 sentences, be concise, draw a breath

noxxville · 03-11-2003, 08:58 PM

Has the judge scheduled to preside over a case ever been randomly selected for jury duty on the same case?

maybe that should go in the other thread. or maybe the randomness of my posts suggests that they could all potentially fall here.

Voodoo - Godsmack

gives the

That was funny Zyle!

Nice fish tale flabby!

4. With clothes covered in spam

masterofNone · 03-11-2003, 10:38 PM

Oddly a good steak is one that has good fat marbeling... a marbeling is a chaotic distribution

1kookykat · 03-11-2003, 10:52 PM

Yeah! Make mine bloody as hell with a Guinness.

beckstra · 03-12-2003, 01:30 AM

<---is saving her butt for Jesus.

1kookykat · 03-12-2003, 02:48 AM

I can't tell if she's kidding or not, folks.

Just teasing, Beck. I know what you mean and it's very cool.

03-10-2003, 10:38 PM	#1
1kookykat Black ants vs. white ants Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The KookyKam Studios, atop the Kooky Building Posts: 215	This is the thread where randomness is called into question induction n. Logic reasoning from particular facts or individual cases to a general conclusion; also, a conclusion reached by such reasoning: distinguished from deduction ------------------------------------- Why do we assume (take for granted?) the validity of induction if we believe (?) the universe is "random"? We have no doubt that the toothpaste will come out of the tube when we squeeze it in the morning. But in a chance universe, squeezing the tube could just as likely cause it to disappear, explode, recite Beowolf, or turn into a 900ton Fig Newton. What justification do we have to assume the regularity of nature? __________________ Atheism presupposes Theism

03-10-2003, 11:08 PM	#3
1kookykat Black ants vs. white ants Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The KookyKam Studios, atop the Kooky Building Posts: 215	Hah! Knew you would come out for this one, Mr. Rick. What is true randomness? __________________ Atheism presupposes Theism

03-10-2003, 11:43 PM	#4
beckstra one classy broad Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Cornhusker State Posts: 1,229	my left butt cheek is covered in hives... must be those stupid bees again. __________________ I'd rather be making out.

03-11-2003, 06:44 AM	#6
1kookykat Black ants vs. white ants Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The KookyKam Studios, atop the Kooky Building Posts: 215	Noel - I'm not worried about the integrity of the thread. Talking philosophy or just screwing around, whatever. Personally, I like to mix them up and have a good time. After all, I'm not going to "save" anyone's soul. beckstra - Were there bees in Ze's soup? (Did I miss something?) This fixation you have with your own butt is making us all curious. It must be very special indeed. Won't you share it with us? Got a webcam? C'mon Sister, show us the goods! RedPrincess - Sorry abut the following use of semicolons; I happen to like them. I don't want to make any pretense of "sneaking in the back door" to talk about God. Yes, I believe that the sun will come up tomorrow and the toothpaste will squirt out of the tube because there is no randomness; there is a God who maintains the regularity or uniformity of nature. What viable alternative propositions have naturalistic or materialistic scientists/philosophers come up with to answer the question of induction? Maybe there are some out there, I don't know. But the viability (acceptability) of a proposition depends on one's most basic foundational commitments; one's core beliefs. Which, by their very nature, must be self-authorizing or circular. That's right, we ALL reason in a circle, ultimately. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; A good steak doesn't taste like chicken. __________________ Atheism presupposes Theism

03-11-2003, 05:12 PM	#8
Red Princess thread soiler Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: san diego Posts: 4,810	out damn semi colon!!!! make 2 sentences, be concise, draw a breath __________________ snarky peep

03-10-2003, 10:57 PM	#2
masterofNone ________ Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,131	often chaos is mislabeled "random". my favorite example of this is when static is called random. In fact if it were random, from time to time pure tones would be generated in static. the uniformity of the absence of signal provides a window into the underlying structure of static. that structure has become known as chaos. snow is another example. if snowfall were random, every now and then it would fall out of the sky in bricks or balls or at the very least big amorphous clumps. but snow isn't any more random then static.

03-10-2003, 11:56 PM	#5
masterofNone ________ Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,131	i'm not sure i believe in true randomness. that is a question whose underpinnings are like the question of "which came first, the chicken, or the egg?" on it's face it seems a question of circular logic but it becomes a query into one's belief in creationism or evolution. If one believes in creationism then the chicken came first because God created the animals and therefore the chickens which went on to lay eggs. If one believes in evolution then the egg came first because the ancestor of the chicken layed eggs before it was classifiable as a "chicken". It was, we suppose, a dinosaur of some sort that layed eggs that one day led to chickens. (also kind of settles the question of why everything tastes like chicken... if everything evolved from the same dino ancestor then it's not so much that everything tastes like chicken... everything INCLUDING chicken tastes like dinosaurs.) is anything truly random? not if there is a consciousness running the show. not if there is a God.

03-11-2003, 02:40 PM	#7
rmr Moderator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 10,595	All I can say is that I agree that a good steak doesn't taste like chicken.

03-11-2003, 08:58 PM	#9
noxxville Disco Maven Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NC...seriously....how did that happen? Posts: 2,024	Has the judge scheduled to preside over a case ever been randomly selected for jury duty on the same case? maybe that should go in the other thread. or maybe the randomness of my posts suggests that they could all potentially fall here. Voodoo - Godsmack gives the That was funny Zyle! Nice fish tale flabby! 4. With clothes covered in spam __________________ Call that guy butter because he's on a roll!

03-11-2003, 10:38 PM	#10
masterofNone ________ Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,131	Oddly a good steak is one that has good fat marbeling... a marbeling is a chaotic distribution

03-11-2003, 10:52 PM	#11
1kookykat Black ants vs. white ants Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The KookyKam Studios, atop the Kooky Building Posts: 215	Yeah! Make mine bloody as hell with a Guinness. __________________ Atheism presupposes Theism

03-12-2003, 01:30 AM	#12
beckstra one classy broad Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Cornhusker State Posts: 1,229	<---is saving her butt for Jesus.

03-12-2003, 02:48 AM	#13
1kookykat Black ants vs. white ants Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The KookyKam Studios, atop the Kooky Building Posts: 215	I can't tell if she's kidding or not, folks. Just teasing, Beck. I know what you mean and it's very cool. __________________ Atheism presupposes Theism

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