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Old 11-25-2003, 01:12 PM   #46
chris
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Thumbs up abortions!

make them manditory
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Old 07-04-2006, 01:33 AM   #47
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My thoughts

Someone posted earlier here 'how many of us remember being inside our mother?'. Her point was to justify a womans right to choice, and I guess that it was not a person yet.This statement is flawed. Let me exercise this thought. How many of us remember being in our mothers arms after being born. How about the next month after birth. The point is, that just because our memories are not intact does not mean that it is not a life yet. Heck, I can't remember last week. With this flawed statement we could make a case for aborting day old babies.

When does life beggin? What does nature say about this (leave relligion out if you wish). I would submit that life beggins upon conception, because if left unchallenged a life will useually result. Some may argue that not all conceptions will come to fullterm even in natural conditions. That is true, but it is the natural course for that life. How could anybody come up with some magical number and say that is when life beggins? The truth is it can't be done. That's like trying to ask when someone becomes mature.

When did we start getting this idea of free choice? There are consiquences for our actions, and sometimes we are just in the wrong place at the wrong time, or it is just an aspect of being human. Why do we have to justify the termination of what might otherwise be a healthy baby. This is a womans burdon, just as it is the males burdon to support and protect the family. Don't take my word for it. This is the way it was even before the spoken language.


If we can get to the point where we agree that life beggins at conception, then the debate changes greatly. When could/should an abortion be performed? By law a life can only be taken when it threatens another life. For expecting mothers that means when bringing the life to full term might endanger the mothers life. I agree that a mothers mortal life (not freedom of life)should be protected, but even then a mother may decide to take the added risk of bringing life to full term. This should be the extent of "free Choice".

"freedom of choice" is a joke. Look around and see how much freedom you really don't have. How abought "Give a Chance". Let life go where its natural course is.

By the way I was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer in Dec 2005 and didn't have a choice about that. It's the risk of living in skin.

Last edited by TruthSeeker : 07-04-2006 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 07-04-2006, 04:33 AM   #48
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You're not fooling any of us, you're just here to whore out your blog. Now beat it. Before someone drops a house on you, too.
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Old 07-04-2006, 12:53 PM   #49
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"I would submit that life beggins upon conception, because if left unchallenged a life will useually result"

I like to avoid the abortion debate, just, well, cause, but if every living cell in nature is precious then why kill any of them?

If you decide to take an antibiotic to kill an infection isn't that a choice?

I think what you are getting at, and this is two fold: survival of the fittest and selective breeding.

So if that house hasn't fallen on you yet, Iíll stop here and I'll wait for a response.
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Old 07-04-2006, 04:27 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by priceyfatprude
You're not fooling any of us, you're just here to whore out your blog. Now beat it. Before someone drops a house on you, too.
If you can't attack the substance of my point then attack the smallest point I make at the very end? It was just a point that I didn't have my freedom of choice. I have to carry my burdons, now how about you? I'd like to stay on topic; forget my blog.
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Old 07-04-2006, 04:46 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna
I like to avoid the abortion debate, just, well, cause, but if every living cell in nature is precious then why kill any of them?

If you decide to take an antibiotic to kill an infection isn't that a choice?

I think what you are getting at, and this is two fold: survival of the fittest and selective breeding.

So if that house hasn't fallen on you yet, Iíll stop here and I'll wait for a response.
Hi Anna,
If cell devision left uncallenged results in a new life (child), then it should be protected as much as possible. Skin cells don't normally develope into a child, so I have no problems here either.

The main question is when does human life begin? If you can't answer it then we must default to conception. Again as I pointed out earlier, a persons maturity level can't be defined on a timeline. It is an evloving process from point A (beginnig of life)to point B (end of life). The same is true for new Human life.

Thanks for your measured reply.
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Old 07-04-2006, 05:54 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthSeeker
If you can't attack the substance of my point then attack the smallest point I make at the very end? It was just a point that I didn't have my freedom of choice. I have to carry my burdons, now how about you? I'd like to stay on topic; forget my blog.
I can forget it if you can remove the link. I took your post quite seriously until I saw it.

And you might want to read the rest of this thread, I have posted my viewpoints in it already.
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Old 07-04-2006, 06:43 PM   #53
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I am interested, Truthseeker...are you male or female? If you are male, I have to say to you: GTFO. Men have been telling women how and what to do with their bodies for far too long; why is it the most insane/aggressive right to lifers are male?? About consequences, if you are so against abortion, adopt one of these kids. Not just you..any and all of the protesters should put their money where their mouths are. I've never seen one of them willing to take this action. What are the consequences for those who are able to help, yet do not? Those who choose only to condemn, but not act?
BTW, Hilter's mother wanted an abortion and her dr. talked her out of it.

Oh, and the words are spelled begin,burden,and consequences.
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Old 07-04-2006, 08:33 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by priceyfatprude
I can forget it if you can remove the link. I took your post quite seriously until I saw it.

And you might want to read the rest of this thread, I have posted my viewpoints in it already.
The Link is removed, If that helps.
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:24 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon
I am interested, Truthseeker...are you male or female?


Male

Quote:
If you are male, I have to say to you: GTFO. Men have been telling women how and what to do with their bodies for far too long; why is it the most insane/aggressive right to lifers are male??
I won't respond to insults with insults. Until I'm banned from this room, I'll assume that I'm welcome to post my views.

Making personals choices for your life is one thing, but when it involves two lives then it's a whole new ballgame. The issue has more to do with life than it does male or female. It's funny when someone critisizes that the first things you hear are male, female, Black, white, or some other characterizing detail, as an attempt to invalidate their views. Don't you agree that some females may also have some of the same views I share? If you notice this is the first time I mention my sex only because you asked.

Quote:
About consequences, if you are so against abortion, adopt one of these kids. Not just you..any and all of the protesters should put their money where their mouths are. I've never seen one of them willing to take this action. What are the consequences for those who are able to help, yet do not? Those who choose only to condemn, but not act?
Quote:
BTW, Hilter's mother wanted an abortion and her dr. talked her out of it.

Oh, and the words are spelled begin,burden,and consequences.
Well in fact my oldest daughter is adobted and has my last name. But your only point is that there is poor responsibility from both sides of the issue. Does that mean we should endorse bad choices? Most newborns who are given up by their parrents don't stay in the addoption system long. Most are older children which may be seen as damaged goods.Is that good, NO, But at least they get their chance. Who knows how many children in bad circumstances have lifted themselves out of their sitauation and have moved on to have happy lives. You talk about male over female,. How many females may have been compelled to have an abortion at the demands of a male partner. How do you suppose to protect those women and their right to foster life? See your point of male domination can be used on both sides of this issue.
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Old 07-04-2006, 10:03 PM   #56
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congratulations on your decision to adopt. But I stand by my thoughts on male right to lifers; until a man can be made to carry a child to term he has no basis for an argument to make a woman continue an unwanted pregnancy. Even being willing to accept responsibility for a child once it is born does not compensate a woman's body for the toll that pregnancy takes.


You talk about male over female,. How many females may have been compelled to have an abortion at the demands of a male partner. How do you suppose to protect those women and their right to foster life? See your point of male domination can be used on both sides of this issue.


How many women have been forced to have children they did not want, could not support because their religion or their husbands demand it of them? How many young girls have been forced to have their babies as a punishment for their irresponsible behavior....some made to raise them, others to give them away? Who is going to protect the women who chose NOT go through with a pregnancy? Are you against birth control? Would you condemn those who chose never to have children, those who use effective means to never "foster life"?

What about fetal alcohol syndrome children, crack babies, and babies afflicted with anencephaly. *? Are these children better off being born so there can be a slight chance they can rise above it and get adopted? Or left to be in the system forever?
* no chance of ever getting better

When you take away a woman's choice, you send us back to the era of back alley abortions and coathangers. I would rather not see that happen.

And this is why I do not agree that life starts at conception:

By the end of the third week of development, blood vessels form within the core of each villus and become connected with the developing circulatory system of the embryo. The embryonic heart begins beat at about this time and embryonic blood begins to flow through the tiny capillaries within the villi. Thus, each villus has embryonic blood flowing within it, and maternal blood bathing its outer surface
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I, not events, have the power to make me happy or unhappy today. I can choose which it shall be. Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I have just one day, today, and I'm going to be happy in it.
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Old 07-04-2006, 11:32 PM   #57
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""If cell devision left uncallenged results in a new life (child), then it should be protected as much as possible. "

Only a human child? Based on what?



"Skin cells don't normally develope into a child, so I have no problems here either."

and what about viruses, bacteria, animals, etc...



"The main question is when does human life begin?"

First, it is NOT the main question, itís a question equal to *ďWhy donít you mind your own damn business?Ē However, if you believe in God then you must also believe that everything he created is sacred because it is his infinite wisdom that created it, even the virus. And I must remind you that not everyone believes in God. But, if you wish to move your argument towards 'the majority of people believe in an almighty,' then admit you are an advocate for mob rule and at the same time acknowledge that the majority of the human race is uneducated and illiterate. The bottom line is "who do you trust?" A well respected educated scientist or the highly respected and renown leader of the Taliban?


"If you can't answer it then we must default to conception."

errr.. who said? You might want to look into stem cell research, the standard for experimentation is 14 days, a fortnight. That's plenty of time for the morning after pill. Handy when a girl has been raped by her father.



"Again as I pointed out earlier, a persons maturity level can't be defined on a timeline."

Sure it can and there's plenty of data to support that. This is one of the reasons why we have special education.


Reproduction is a personal and private matter, less you have some grand plan on developing a superior human race or wish to support all the rejects of the world. But, let me warn you both have been tried in the past and keep failing. Though some believe the extermination continues on in Africa and currently in Iraq.



*Footnote- 4th amendment to the US constitution.

Last edited by Anna : 07-04-2006 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 07-05-2006, 12:19 AM   #58
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Old 07-05-2006, 10:52 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna
""If cell devision left uncallenged results in a new life (child), then it should be protected as much as possible. "

Only a human child? Based on what?
I'm not sure what the relevance is, we're talking about human life, not plant life, or animal life.


Quote:
"Skin cells don't normally develope into a child, so I have no problems here either."

and what about viruses, bacteria, animals, etc...
Well animals are well outside of this topic, but for viruses, bacteria,sperm, then these don't define life, so no problem here either. Life begins upon conception, so any components prior to conception mean little by themselves. They lack the spark of human life.

Quote:
"The main question is when does human life begin?"

First, it is NOT the main question, itís a question equal to *ďWhy donít you mind your own damn business?Ē However, if you believe in God then you must also believe that everything he created is sacred because it is his infinite wisdom that created it, even the virus. And I must remind you that not everyone believes in God. But, if you wish to move your argument towards 'the majority of people believe in an almighty,' then admit you are an advocate for mob rule and at the same time acknowledge that the majority of the human race is uneducated and illiterate. The bottom line is "who do you trust?" A well respected educated scientist or the highly respected and renown leader of the Taliban?
I won't mind my own business because just like many other issues, they transcend the realm of privacy. That's like saying to others "don't worry about the heaps of trash in my yard; it's my business". Life has always been a public matter. If you had your way, where else could we extend "freedom of choice"? You either agree that there are limits to "freedom of choice" or there are no limits.

Quote:
"If you can't answer it then we must default to conception."

errr.. who said? You might want to look into stem cell research, the standard for experimentation is 14 days, a fortnight. That's plenty of time for the morning after pill. Handy when a girl has been raped by her father.
I can use your extreme example:

Ya the father may have made her take it. Then where is her freedom?




Quote:
"Again as I pointed out earlier, a persons maturity level can't be defined on a timeline."

Sure it can and there's plenty of data to support that. This is one of the reasons why we have special education.
Really? what day and at what hour did you become mature?

Quote:
Reproduction is a personal and private matter, less you have some grand plan on developing a superior human race or wish to support all the rejects of the world.
Yes reproduction is a private matter, but the protection of life is not. I'm not saying that death is not possible. It should not be administered witout at least the representation of that human life.

Last edited by TruthSeeker : 07-05-2006 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 07-05-2006, 11:21 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon
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congratulations on your decision to adopt. But I stand by my thoughts on male right to lifers; until a man can be made to carry a child to term he has no basis for an argument to make a woman continue an unwanted pregnancy. Even being willing to accept responsibility for a child once it is born does not compensate a woman's body for the toll that pregnancy takes.


You talk about male over female,. How many females may have been compelled to have an abortion at the demands of a male partner. How do you suppose to protect those women and their right to foster life? See your point of male domination can be used on both sides of this issue.


How many women have been forced to have children they did not want, could not support because their religion or their husbands demand it of them? How many young girls have been forced to have their babies as a punishment for their irresponsible behavior....some made to raise them, others to give them away? Who is going to protect the women who chose NOT go through with a pregnancy? Are you against birth control? Would you condemn those who chose never to have children, those who use effective means to never "foster life"?

What about fetal alcohol syndrome children, crack babies, and babies afflicted with anencephaly. *? Are these children better off being born so there can be a slight chance they can rise above it and get adopted? Or left to be in the system forever?
* no chance of ever getting better

When you take away a woman's choice, you send us back to the era of back alley abortions and coathangers. I would rather not see that happen.

And this is why I do not agree that life starts at conception:

By the end of the third week of development, blood vessels form within the core of each villus and become connected with the developing circulatory system of the embryo. The embryonic heart begins beat at about this time and embryonic blood begins to flow through the tiny capillaries within the villi. Thus, each villus has embryonic blood flowing within it, and maternal blood bathing its outer surface

You didnít answer my question. I only brought it up because you accuse men of dominating woman when it comes to freedom of choice, but it is also clear that a ďright to choiceĒ does not by itself remove male domination over females. I wouldnít be surprised if a large percentage of abortions are inspired by the demands of irresponsible men, with disregard to the wishes of the woman. If the female fears harm or fears her partner leaving, then she may do something she doesnít really choose to do.

I donít want to point the finger at a group (male v.s. female) because there is plenty of blame on both sides. Hopefully you can agree on that.


At what point would you say human life clearly begins?( It begins somewhere).
Should it be illegal to take that human life , just as the law provides in every other case?

Iím not conceding anything at this point, but I want to see where you stand on these two questions. Iíve been very clear where I think life begins, so Iím hoping for a clear answer on where you think life begins.
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