Abortion - ZEFRANK.COM

Hermione · 10-22-2003, 06:27 PM

Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

10-22-2003, 06:28 PM

hey it's 1995 again

this'll be a fascinating debate

zenbabe · 10-22-2003, 08:31 PM

pro life personally, pro choice globaly

TinaBina · 10-23-2003, 10:19 AM

I'm with zenbabe. i am pro-life personally. Prochoice for everyone else.

I am currently pregnant - 4.5 months. I couldn't ever imagine terminating it. I used to be prochoice for me, until now. I still have to get some test results back to confirm that everything is normal genetically. My ultrasound on Tuesday shows that everything is going well however.

But what if everything is not well with this baby? What if there is a serious genetic defect?

The fetus is fully formed right now - just a teeny person at 10 ounces with feet that are one inch long. She has all her fingers and toes and ribs and heartbeat. She waved her hand during the ultrasound and wriggled her feet.

I just can't imagine killing her.

dalang · 10-23-2003, 05:32 PM

but, isn't that still a choice? To choose her life instead of her termination?

I've always had trouble with the terminology with this debate.

10-23-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

I've always had trouble with the terminology with this debate.

The terminology in this debate is used to further people’s agendas. It is meant to be misleading. They’re counting on people subconsciously committing the fallacy of inference from a name or description.

I think abortion should be, as Bustamante put it, between a women, her doctor, and her god. If it is made illegal, then people will just do it at illegal clinics where the treatment would likely be substandard- thus posing a danger to her health-- or to clinics in Mexico or some other country.

It seemed to me the whole controversy was just fronted as a mask for much more important issues.

TinaBina · 10-23-2003, 06:09 PM

I can see what you mean. It can be a problem with semantics.

As far as my thought process, for me, I always though that if I was pregnant with a fetus with a defect, I would terminate it. Now that I AM pregnant, my thoughts and feelings have changed. I don't know if I could terminate it...

I suppose others may have a drawing line on this.
Maybe they would abort a retarded fetus. Maybe not.
Maybe they would abort a fetus that is missing an arm. Maybe not.
Maybe they woudl abort it because it was female and not male. Maybe not.
Maybe they would abort it because it did not fit into their career plans.
I think it is highly personal.

But can I help feeling that if I knew someone, like a close friend or relative, that was considering abortion, would I want to take the baby for them, rather than them terminating it? Yes, I would want to explore that option, with the understanding that to take a baby to term is a huge commitment, physically and emotionally.

I think there are fine dividing lines for each person. I don't feel like I can truly say what is right or wrong for me is right or wrong for someone else.

I am not in the same shoes that other women (and girls) may be in since I chose to get pregnant.

I don't feel in my heart that I could choose abortion.

I also don't think a law can make that decision for someone.

The world is grey. Every situation is unique.

catbelly · 10-23-2003, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TinaBinaQueenaFina
I can see what you mean. It can be a problem with semantics.

As far as my thought process, for me, I always though that if I was pregnant with a fetus with a defect, I would terminate it. Now that I AM pregnant, my thoughts and feelings have changed. I don't know if I could terminate it...

I think that is the whole point of pro-choice - that *you* as the mother have the choice about what *you* want to do. The choice does NOT have to be abortion, that is one of the misleading things about this whole debate! The point is that you do not have to do anything that any other person says you have to, and that includes keeping your baby.

(edited for bad typing! too much coffee!)

ibbity · 10-24-2003, 01:35 AM

What is worse, ending the life of something that doesnt even know it exists or bringing a child into the world where it isnt wanted?
If you can accommodate a child and provide enough love and support then by all means go for your life, but if you know that you aren't in the right place emotionally, spiritually, physically whatever and there is nothing you can do to get there then how fair is it to bring a child into the world?
It's so easy for us to say 'yeah! pro life, everyone has rights free love' but what about the right of that child to a loving family who can support it?
and by the way...who actually remembers being inside their mother?

TinaBina · 10-24-2003, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ibbity
What is worse, ending the life of something that doesnt even know it exists or bringing a child into the world where it isnt wanted?
If you can accommodate a child and provide enough love and support then by all means go for your life, but if you know that you aren't in the right place emotionally, spiritually, physically whatever and there is nothing you can do to get there then how fair is it to bring a child into the world?
It's so easy for us to say 'yeah! pro life, everyone has rights free love' but what about the right of that child to a loving family who can support it?
and by the way...who actually remembers being inside their mother?

That's why being prepared is so important. While birth control is not 100%, it should be more accessible to those who are limited in resources whether those resources are financial, emotional or physical in nature. The same with sterilization for those who know that they will never have kids or want any more kids. It should be widely accessible.

I agree it isn't fair to bring a kid into the world if you know you truly can't handle it. However I would hope that person would at least consider adoption - there are those who would love that child somewhere in this world. That is a great sacrifice and commitment in itself - to carry a child to term and give it up.

I agree it is a woman's choice to decide what to do. I just hope she explores all her options.

TinaBina · 10-24-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by catbelly
I think that is the whole point of pro-choice - that *you* as the mother have the choice about what *you* want to do. The choice does NOT have to be abortion, that is one of the misleading things about this whole debate! The point is that you do not have to do anything that any other person says you have to, and that includes keeping your baby.

(edited for bad typing! too much coffee!)

We're on the same page - I believe in choice. It's my choice to have this kid.
I am in a situation where I chose to get pregnant... so it isn't the same as someone who got pregnant by accident. So my opinion is somewhat biased, perhaps my focus narrow.

For me, I think I would never choose abortion as an option. That is why earlier I said I was prolife for my own decisions, but also support the choice of others. If that makes me prochoice, then so be it.. call me whatever.

catbelly · 10-24-2003, 01:41 PM

Yah I think we are on the same page too TinaBinaFina.

I guess I would call you pro-choice, because say someone said to you, "Tina I don't think you should have a baby, you have to get an abortion" you would fully have the right to say, "sorry you feel that way, but it's my choice and I would never have an abortion so you can fark off with your opinions." If you didn't have the choice, you would have to do what the other person said, eh?

Ibbity, I see what you're saying and for the most part I agree. I run into trouble when I start thinking about passing judgement on other people's lives, though. It is sad to think about any child being unhappy but if we got rid of any unhappy, unloved, underpriveleged child... where would the world be? People grow up, people overcome these obstacles. Not every productive, happy person who contributes to society came from a perfect home. How many homes and families are *not* dysfunctional in some way? I think the "white picket fence" family is a myth.

TinaBina · 10-24-2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by catbelly

It is sad to think about any child being unhappy but if we got rid of any unhappy, unloved, underpriveleged child... where would the world be? People grow up, people overcome these obstacles. Not every productive, happy person who contributes to society came from a perfect home. How many homes and families are *not* dysfunctional in some way? I think the "white picket fence" family is a myth.

I say amen to that!

azur · 10-24-2003, 03:30 PM

I'm strongly pro-choice.
In my country it's tottaly banned to do an abortion. We are Polish Pope country so Church rules here...

It's a nightmare. As in communistic times it was all legal, now even woman who's life is in danger have serious problems to do the abortion...they have to take dfferent tests and all doctors are afraid to do the operation (in case if it was a mistake). There were many situations that doctors refused even to do ultrasonografy "because if there is something wrong with the child we still cant do anything". After many protest it was stopped (because you can cure an unborn child, you can operate it), but I'm sure in small localities where people have no power and money it still can be a problem.
In my country nobody says "fetus". They say "unborn life". They don't say "pregnant woman" but "mother". How can you say something good about "mother" who wants to kill "unborn life"? It's just like in Orwells "1984" - words can change the reality.
Of course I live in the capital and people here are relatively rich so it's not a problem to find a "good" doctor who will help you "revive menstruations". Or - if you want a child - pay like 200 dollars and during the pregnancy have all possible tests in a nice private and legal clinique. But at the countryside where every one knows each other it's not so simple...
I don't want now to describe all terrible things that are happening because of this law.
I just wanted to tell you how things work when there is no choice.

catbelly · 10-24-2003, 04:59 PM

Azur you are one amazing person

Thank you for posting that - I really hope that Canada/US won't go back to that state, but I am afraid that it is starting to happen. IMO in some people's minds (e.g. the Bushes, Jr. and Jeb) the rights of the woman take a back seat to their idea of what is moral. IMO they veil this morality with concern for the child, and stretch the idea of "child" to include *any* pregnancy at *any* stage.

The mentality where "women" are not seen as being separate from "women and children" is showing up in Canada these days. In British Columbia, the province I live in, Women's Centres have lost their funding. This was recently announced (very quietly), and the rationale that "they can just be serviced by family/community centres" was used.

This pisses me off incredibly. I feel like the trend with both of these things is to refuse to recognize women as people separate from their children or (male) spouse; a separate group, needing distinct services. And the women who don't fit the mold of the mother or wife, where is their voice? It's true that for some women, children and family are huge parts of their life - but not all women are in that position, more so now than ever.

10-22-2003, 06:27 PM	#1
Hermione monkey Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,060	Abortion Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?

10-22-2003, 08:31 PM	#3
zenbabe Lollypop! Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: we are all made of stars Posts: 11,690	pro life personally, pro choice globaly __________________ Be yourself, because the people that mind don't matter, and the people that matter don't mind. -Dr. Seuss

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

10-22-2003, 06:28 PM	#2
Antimatter Posts: n/a	hey it's 1995 again this'll be a fascinating debate

10-23-2003, 10:19 AM	#4
TinaBina Mooooooooo Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Over here! Posts: 355	I'm with zenbabe. i am pro-life personally. Prochoice for everyone else. I am currently pregnant - 4.5 months. I couldn't ever imagine terminating it. I used to be prochoice for me, until now. I still have to get some test results back to confirm that everything is normal genetically. My ultrasound on Tuesday shows that everything is going well however. But what if everything is not well with this baby? What if there is a serious genetic defect? The fetus is fully formed right now - just a teeny person at 10 ounces with feet that are one inch long. She has all her fingers and toes and ribs and heartbeat. She waved her hand during the ultrasound and wriggled her feet. I just can't imagine killing her.

10-23-2003, 05:32 PM	#5
dalang distant Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: No Wake Zone Posts: 692	but, isn't that still a choice? To choose her life instead of her termination? I've always had trouble with the terminology with this debate.

10-23-2003, 06:09 PM	#7
TinaBina Mooooooooo Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Over here! Posts: 355	I can see what you mean. It can be a problem with semantics. As far as my thought process, for me, I always though that if I was pregnant with a fetus with a defect, I would terminate it. Now that I AM pregnant, my thoughts and feelings have changed. I don't know if I could terminate it... I suppose others may have a drawing line on this. Maybe they would abort a retarded fetus. Maybe not. Maybe they would abort a fetus that is missing an arm. Maybe not. Maybe they woudl abort it because it was female and not male. Maybe not. Maybe they would abort it because it did not fit into their career plans. I think it is highly personal. But can I help feeling that if I knew someone, like a close friend or relative, that was considering abortion, would I want to take the baby for them, rather than them terminating it? Yes, I would want to explore that option, with the understanding that to take a baby to term is a huge commitment, physically and emotionally. I think there are fine dividing lines for each person. I don't feel like I can truly say what is right or wrong for me is right or wrong for someone else. I am not in the same shoes that other women (and girls) may be in since I chose to get pregnant. I don't feel in my heart that I could choose abortion. I also don't think a law can make that decision for someone. The world is grey. Every situation is unique.

10-24-2003, 01:35 AM	#9
ibbity Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Sydney Posts: 3	What is worse, ending the life of something that doesnt even know it exists or bringing a child into the world where it isnt wanted? If you can accommodate a child and provide enough love and support then by all means go for your life, but if you know that you aren't in the right place emotionally, spiritually, physically whatever and there is nothing you can do to get there then how fair is it to bring a child into the world? It's so easy for us to say 'yeah! pro life, everyone has rights free love' but what about the right of that child to a loving family who can support it? and by the way...who actually remembers being inside their mother?

10-24-2003, 01:41 PM	#12
catbelly monkey Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: the north Posts: 1,757	Yah I think we are on the same page too TinaBinaFina. I guess I would call you pro-choice, because say someone said to you, "Tina I don't think you should have a baby, you have to get an abortion" you would fully have the right to say, "sorry you feel that way, but it's my choice and I would never have an abortion so you can fark off with your opinions." If you didn't have the choice, you would have to do what the other person said, eh? Ibbity, I see what you're saying and for the most part I agree. I run into trouble when I start thinking about passing judgement on other people's lives, though. It is sad to think about any child being unhappy but if we got rid of any unhappy, unloved, underpriveleged child... where would the world be? People grow up, people overcome these obstacles. Not every productive, happy person who contributes to society came from a perfect home. How many homes and families are not dysfunctional in some way? I think the "white picket fence" family is a myth.

10-24-2003, 03:30 PM	#14
azur over the rainbow! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 620	I'm strongly pro-choice. In my country it's tottaly banned to do an abortion. We are Polish Pope country so Church rules here... It's a nightmare. As in communistic times it was all legal, now even woman who's life is in danger have serious problems to do the abortion...they have to take dfferent tests and all doctors are afraid to do the operation (in case if it was a mistake). There were many situations that doctors refused even to do ultrasonografy "because if there is something wrong with the child we still cant do anything". After many protest it was stopped (because you can cure an unborn child, you can operate it), but I'm sure in small localities where people have no power and money it still can be a problem. In my country nobody says "fetus". They say "unborn life". They don't say "pregnant woman" but "mother". How can you say something good about "mother" who wants to kill "unborn life"? It's just like in Orwells "1984" - words can change the reality. Of course I live in the capital and people here are relatively rich so it's not a problem to find a "good" doctor who will help you "revive menstruations". Or - if you want a child - pay like 200 dollars and during the pregnancy have all possible tests in a nice private and legal clinique. But at the countryside where every one knows each other it's not so simple... I don't want now to describe all terrible things that are happening because of this law. I just wanted to tell you how things work when there is no choice.

10-24-2003, 04:59 PM	#15
catbelly monkey Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: the north Posts: 1,757	Azur you are one amazing person Thank you for posting that - I really hope that Canada/US won't go back to that state, but I am afraid that it is starting to happen. IMO in some people's minds (e.g. the Bushes, Jr. and Jeb) the rights of the woman take a back seat to their idea of what is moral. IMO they veil this morality with concern for the child, and stretch the idea of "child" to include any pregnancy at any stage. The mentality where "women" are not seen as being separate from "women and children" is showing up in Canada these days. In British Columbia, the province I live in, Women's Centres have lost their funding. This was recently announced (very quietly), and the rationale that "they can just be serviced by family/community centres" was used. This pisses me off incredibly. I feel like the trend with both of these things is to refuse to recognize women as people separate from their children or (male) spouse; a separate group, needing distinct services. And the women who don't fit the mold of the mother or wife, where is their voice? It's true that for some women, children and family are huge parts of their life - but not all women are in that position, more so now than ever.