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Old 10-13-2003, 08:01 PM   #1
RuneT
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Death row

Is it OK to kill people in the name of the law?

Is it OK to kill people in the name of the law on substantial evidence?

IS the court system in the USA good enough to sentence people to death?

Is it OK to excecute children?
"Neither capital punishment nor life inprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offences committed by persons below eighteen years of age"
-Article 37, United Nations Conventions on the Rights of the Child

For the time being, what country is executing more people than the USA? Yeah, you better fish out that calculator cos we want the numbers to be right.

the USA goverment don't give a fwk. Hell, some politicians even use it for popularity. What do you think?
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Old 10-13-2003, 08:16 PM   #2
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i am 100% against capital punishment.
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Old 10-13-2003, 08:38 PM   #3
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Is it OK to kill people in the name of the law on substantial evidence?
That’s the crux of the matter: the evidence. Many people have been killed for crimes they did not commit. Police documents are falsified and eyewitness testimony is either coerced or bought so that the crime just…goes away. The evidence is circumstantial in many cases, but with an appeal to emotion on the awfulness of the crime commited, jurers convict anyway.

Only recently has the Law here in the US begun to recognize the problem, by dint of the incontrovertable nature of DNA evidence. A small number of death row cases have been overturned based on DNA evidence. Others… will never be even looked at.

Now… in a perfect system, I might say yes, there are some cases that warrent the use of a death penalty. There are some traits that people acquire over time that are inexpungable from their personalities. Others seeminly cannot tell right from wrong. Hell, most philosophers can’t tell right from wrong, either, but I hope you know what I mean. It’s wrong to kill people when they pose no threat to you, etc.

However, our regular justice system is in such a state of disarray, my initial reaction is to say “fix that first!” People who go to prison here come out hardened criminals. The recidivism rate of people going to prison in the US is around 75% across the board. Why? We make no attempt whatsoever to help people change the underlying assumption seems to be that people will never change, so why bother?

I think this is wrong. People can change. Changing the system would be a huge and expensive undertaking, but I think it’s what we need. Too many people are in prison. It raises many ethical concerns. I’ll bet, if the “many histories” interpretation of quantum theory is true, then most people in the US have a doppelganger who is in prison.

Last edited by rapscalious rob : 05-05-2004 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 10-13-2003, 10:03 PM   #4
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I think it's way better to just kill them quickly than put them in jail for life where they are just going to die anyway. I for one am an eye for an eye kind of girl. If someone murdered someone in my family or even a friend, I would want them to die, and I would never back down on that. Evil people have no place in this world. They deserve to burn in hell rather than eat food bought by my tax dollars.

I do have a problem with children being tried as adults. They arn't adults and dont have the maturity to know how bad the choices they are making really are. I have never heard of a child exicution in this country. Not by the law anyway.

I am pretty sure that the USA has the highest capital punishment numbers in the world, but we are also the highest when it comes to the number of people we have incarcerated, IN THE WORLD.
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Old 10-14-2003, 12:00 AM   #5
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killing can't be right. period.
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Old 10-14-2003, 01:35 AM   #6
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No it can't, and if you do it, you should be willing to pay the price.
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Old 10-14-2003, 04:24 AM   #7
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Zen, what if they killed you quickly on substantial evidence and you were innocent?
Next day, "Oh shite we miss labled the DNA test tubes. Bummer!"

Here's the children list
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Old 10-14-2003, 04:27 AM   #8
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Amnesty International:

The USA is approaching its 900th execution since resuming judicial killing in 1977. More than 700 men and women have been executed since 1990, and almost 60 already this year. Those executed since 1977 include child offenders, the mentally impaired, the inadequately represented, people whose guilt remained in doubt, and foreign nationals denied their consular rights after arrest. The US death penalty remains arbitrary, discriminatory and error-prone. More than 100 people have been released from death rows since 1977 after evidence of their innocence emerged. Eighty per cent of those executed since 1977 were put to death for killing whites, even though whites and blacks are the victims of murder in the USA in approximately equal numbers.
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:06 AM   #9
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I'm all for it, actually. Saves room in the prisons.

Rune, don't worry about the numbers. You don't live in the US.
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:33 AM   #10
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I don't have to time to get into the whole topic at this moment. But here in the state of Illinois we have had a serious problem of trying to tie up loose ends on horrific criminal cases and putting innocent people on death row for the crime. It seems for a long time here no one cared if the person was guilty or not, just that the case was solved. Past cases are still under review/investigation but I'm sure in our state we've put to death at least one if not more innocent people.

In my opinion defending one's self from physical harm is one thing, but playing God and deciding who will live or die is another. If we put one person to death that is innocent we are as guilty as our criminals.

And I'd also like to point out that I think it goes beyond rehabilitating criminals. In the early 80's we cut almost all of our federally funded mental health programs and insurance companies have also refused to pay. When someone is mentally ill and cannot receive any help what so ever of course they will turn to crime. That's a no-brainer. I'm not saying all criminals are mentally ill, but I would venture to say the majority are and I think we, as a society should stop turning our backs on these people and start to offer some assistance. It’s really grotesque to me, if a person was sick with cancer we would be appalled at the fact the no support was offered, but if someone’s mentally ill it’s seems easier to just turn our backs to them. Both are sicknesses.

I should probably post this in the other thread, but I'd rather have federally and state funded programs for our mentally ill "citizens" rather then allow illegals to get their driver's licenses.

Sorry I had to throw that in there
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Old 10-14-2003, 11:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by RuneT
Zen, what if they killed you quickly on substantial evidence and you were innocent?
Next day, "Oh shite we miss labled the DNA test tubes. Bummer!"

Here's the children list

See the thing is Rune, they don't ever kill them quickly, they leave them on death row for years while the appeals are going through. I know sometimes mistakes are made, but with the technology we have now, it's pretty much nailed down. A convict can sit on death row for 20 years just waiting to die.

I myself would prefere to die then spend the rest of my life in prison.

I can also tell you, that all those "children" that were um, 17 at the time they committed their offenses, were most likely well over 20 by the time they were exicuted. I don't really consider 17 year olds children though. I would consider maybe up to 15 depending on the crime.
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:05 AM   #12
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Ya know... I was sort of on the fence about the death penalty for a long time, for the reasons that Zen gives. If someone were to hurt the people I care about, I would want them dead too.
But over the years I've come to appreciate a couple of things. One of them is that wishing someone dead isn't a good enough reason for them to die. That's what got the guy (or gal) on Death Row where s/he is. You're not going to undo what they did with their death. And I would hope that the law isn't there to make us feel better; that it's there to do the right thing. Killing a human being is never right, no matter how horrendous their deed, not just because they might be innocent, but because it teaches them nothing, and only serves as a wispy bit of gauze for the gaping wound caused by that crime. Maybe a better analogy might be a shot of whiskey or a Valium - you might feel better for a brief span of time, but it solves nada.
Another thing: you might think the death penalty would serve as a warning to other people who might be about to commit a crime that's punishable by death, but the fact that the level of violent crimes commited has *risen* instead of improved seems to show that that's a load of crap. It solves NOTHING. It's expedient, and it's popular with people who don't think beyond their (valid) intense emotions of grief and loss to what comes after - that by seeking the death penalty, they will be responsible for the death of one more person. And no other human should get to judge whose life is expendable, for whatever reason, except maybe that person him or herself.
I think you have to ask, "What are we here for?" Are we here just to indulge ourselves, our emotions, our senses, like selfish babies? Or are we here to grow and improve? I think it's the latter. And if we're going to grow and improve as a society, we need rise above our current level of unconscious knee-jerk reactions to violent crimes and figure out *what will actually make people not want to commit crimes*. Trying to induce fear of death is *not* a solution, proven *resoundingly* by the failure of the death penalty to deter violent crime. Teaching children respect, love and enjoyment of each other and themselves - and for *all* life - might be.

Last edited by lapietra : 10-21-2003 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:23 AM   #13
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ya know, I actually like it when I hear about a pedophile or child molester going to prison..they don't get the DP, they get to spend the rest of their lives in prison getting butt raped by all the other convicts...as well they should. Maybe it is just the sadistic part of me that thinks that is cosmic justice...but which would you rather have?

Prison is a death sentence no matter how you look at it...I would rather have my body die and my soul live than my soul die and my body live.......
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:43 AM   #14
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I have to agree, zen... There's something satisfying, in a way, about that... (kind of like the end of "The Cook, The Thief, His Wife and Her Lover"... revenge can be very tasty indeed, short term) but after that, I make myself go one step further, look at the bigger picture and ask - how does that improve my world, other than let me indulge in a moment of sadistic gratification? (Although that ending... man... you just gotta know she walked out of that room and had a *great* life... or not. Depends...)
Because I personally just have to go there - I have to think about what kind of person would do something like that, and what made them that way. And all I can come up with is, yeah, a sick person, miserable, that they would have to do something so monstrous - must have had something similar done to him, or something equally terrible. Suffering, in pain, and then turning it on a victim to try to gain some control over their horrid, miserable lives... Or maybe not - maybe they have no excuse other than a chemical imbalance... Good thing I'm not in a position where I have to judge this stuff for real.

I'm not saying we should put them up in five-star hotels or spas... I just think there has to be a better solution... I believe someone will come up with it someday, and we'll look back on this as utterly barbaric, like the Dark Ages...

You ever see "Green Mile"? Damn. If that isn't a powerful argument against the death penalty, I don't know what is... the scene where the guy forgets the sponge... holy crap. I will NEVER get that out of my memory...
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Old 10-21-2003, 03:09 AM   #15
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I will tell you how it improves my world. It means that sick fvck won't be walking around on the same planet that me or anyone else is. That is about all I need to convince me to fry those bastards. Who needs them? I mean really? Do you think they will actually do any good for society? HELLZ NO THEY WON'T.

And don't give me any of this rehabilitation crizzap, because that is what it is...crap. Damaged goods baby, and they must be destroyed. Think about if it was your 10 year old child..outside playing, kidnapped, raped, and burned alive so they can't identify the body. How would you feel then?

Ps. In Green Mile..when he forgot the sponge....he did that on purpose.....that was a pretty messed up scene...
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