ZEFRANK.COM - message board  

Go Back   ZEFRANK.COM - message board > DEBATE HALL
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 85 votes, 4.86 average. Display Modes
Old 05-13-2006, 02:11 PM   #226
Smartypants
MR. Smartypants to you.
 
Smartypants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynn
By the way, I'm in Santa Cruz this weekend for a wedding. I can see your house from here - can you see me waving?????
OMG, that was you?! I thought it was someone I owed money to, so I was pretending I didn't notice.
__________________

"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith
Smartypants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2006, 06:16 PM   #227
Kosmick
Mick Kosmic
 
Kosmick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: omnipresent...
Posts: 18
Damnit Brynn! Just when I was savoring the delicious purgatorial punishment of being ignored by goring your ox of faith, you have to get all reasonable and contrite with me...'a Brynn baby, Brynn' in hell response would have made my day/week and earned an all caps underscore in my palm pilot. But NOOOOO....you have to completely demolish any vestiges I had of the monolithic archetypal evangelical. No longer secure in my singular mega-martyrdom of saving the world from berserk evangelicals, I'll am now forced to pursue a more difficult and complex sociomelioristic cause. An enemy ever more cunning, powerful and dangerous than all of the enemies of humanity of history combined. I shall now Marshall every fiber of my being, every chromosome shall Target the preemption of maniacal world domination of/by....Walmart.

How bad has it gotten, you were about to ask but didn't have the chance? Now that God's way down on the Dow, even He buys his speedos at Walmart.

A Penny for your thoughts?
__________________
You go to Heaven for the climate...not the company...

Last edited by Kosmick : 05-16-2006 at 06:37 PM.
Kosmick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2006, 06:28 PM   #228
Smartypants
MR. Smartypants to you.
 
Smartypants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
Don't let Kosmick's comments go to your head, Brynn baby. In my heart, you'll always be an irrational crackpot! (But you're MY irrational crackpot, and don't you forget it!)

xoxo
Love, SP
__________________

"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith
Smartypants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2006, 10:46 AM   #229
Smartypants
MR. Smartypants to you.
 
Smartypants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
"Have you taken Jesus as your personal lord and savior? No, then you're probably not in politics."


-
__________________

"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith
Smartypants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2006, 10:58 AM   #230
Smartypants
MR. Smartypants to you.
 
Smartypants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
But seriously...

Why religion must end.

Interview with Sam Harris on why people must embrace rationalism -- not faith -- or they will never overcome their differences.
__________________

"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith
Smartypants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2006, 12:53 PM   #231
trisherina
meretricious dilettante
 
trisherina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,068
I want to save this interview forever, ^^^ thanks, Smarty.

eta: this is what I sent in an email discussing this article:

I'm with Sam in that I think it's fundamentally undesirable to encourage
irrationality: I even go so far as to feel bad about the Easter bunny. It's
just along the lines of how I feel about trying to defeat eating disorders
by discouraging dieting and the promotion of a beauty ideal via the media:
historically as human beings we seem to be drawn to wanting to physically
mold ourselves toward an ideal -- that seems to be a part of being human,
even though the ideal undergoes some change over time. I just don't think
it's remotely realistic to attempt to eradicate this impulse in people --
far better to appeal to what is reasonable and to question what isn't, than
to expect a standard that no one will be able to attain in their darkest
moments.

Just like dieting and reconstructive surgery have their place in the real
world, I think religion and irrationality do, too. If believing in a better
place beyond consoles the dying cancer victim or the concentration camp
prisoner or the child who just lost a beloved pet, however filled with
inconsistency these beliefs might be, I am not going to begrudge them. Hold
off the cold water of reason sometimes, and let people sleep a little,
dammit.
__________________
Because how we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. -- Annie Dillard

Last edited by trisherina : 05-18-2006 at 01:27 PM. Reason: to thank Smarty again
trisherina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2006, 06:07 PM   #232
FredFlash
monkey
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 13
Matthew 22:21

With reference to Matthew 22:21, what are the things that belong to God and what are the things that belong to Caesar?
FredFlash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2006, 11:07 PM   #233
Coffee
Cheeses Save
 
Coffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Floating
Posts: 9,204
Dear FredFlash,

If something is tossed or flung up in the air and it doesn't come back down...it belongs to God. If the item returns to hit the ground it is, metaphorically speaking, Caesar's. God apparently has very little interest in most solid items on earth, but has some interest in things like hydrogen and other gasses. God thus far is only temporarily in possesion of some satelites and space probes, gifts from the American taxpayers mostly.

I hope that helps to clear this up for you.

Your's
Matthew.
5:22 (sorry couldn't wait till 22:21...I hope that is ok)
Coffee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2006, 11:33 PM   #234
Hyakujo's Fox
left hanging
 
Hyakujo's Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: between the click of the light and the start of the dream
Posts: 10,071
Ask him if he's seen a radioactive manhole cover.

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/.../manhole.shtml
Hyakujo's Fox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 12:58 AM   #235
Jack Flanders
landscaping is fun
 
Jack Flanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: up river and down river
Posts: 4,815
Filling in for JT and Dinz.... Asshole cover?
Jack Flanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 06:18 PM   #236
Smartypants
MR. Smartypants to you.
 
Smartypants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
Sam Harris' "Reply to a Christian."
__________________

"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith
Smartypants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2006, 09:59 PM   #237
Brynn
constantly amazed
 
Brynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: in the labyrinth of shared happiness
Posts: 6,206
Wow, I've been spending way too much time stalking Ron Post and watching "Lost" (great finale last night). I'll spare the commentary on Smarty's articles until I've actually read them, how 'bout that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmick
I shall now Marshall every fiber of my being, every chromosome shall Target the preemption of maniacal world domination of/by....Walmart.

How bad has it gotten, you were about to ask but didn't have the chance? Now that God's way down on the Dow, even He buys his speedos at Walmart.

A Penny for your thoughts?
Now there's a cause I can get behind! Politically active evangelicals will probably implode upon themselves someday, but Walmart is just bad. Baaaad.
However, I've always pictured one of my own anthropomorphic versions of God in some kind of battered wetsuit or festive surf shorts. Speedos indeed. Feh!

Love,
Smarty's Irrational Crackpot
Brynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2006, 09:08 PM   #238
Brynn
constantly amazed
 
Brynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: in the labyrinth of shared happiness
Posts: 6,206
Okay - saw the Lewis Black piece when it aired. It was hilarious. He's a very talented entertainer!

As for the Sam Harris article "Why Religion Must End," I found that the responses to it were far more insightful than the article itself, which basically rehashes everything Smarty's been saying here for a long time (or the other way around). I found his metaphor of the family digging every week in their back yard for a diamond especially misleading because they are left with nothing more tangible than an expanding empty pit in their back yard.
If there were nothing more tangible than that to be had from worship and the daily practical application of faith, I sincerely doubt that billions of people the world over would stay with it for very long.
I would urge everyone to keep reading beyond the interview to some of the very articulate and well-reasoned responses to it from people of faith.
I agree with one of the readers that anti-religionism (of the contentious, condescending, intolerant Sam Harris variety) is basically ignorance (of the Fred Phelps variety) of the foundational truths of religion - and yes, I put the two in the same category of the aggressively ignorant.

But beyond that, the discussion there of religiosity vs. spirituality is most interesting. I'll try to excerpt the most compelling points later when I get time - or better yet, check it out for yourself.
Still catching up on the other reading Smarty's so thoughtfully provided. Why, I guess I could just spend all my time reading this stuff instead of praying, or doing something even more tangible, like what Peterson Sozi does in Uganda.

I just met the man myself a couple of weeks ago here in Portland, and he's the real deal. I'm still not sure if I've fully comprehended the impact he's had on our church here, and on me personally. Things suddenly got very busy for a while!
Apart from the genuine love emanating from this man, the quiet confidence that has nothing to do with showmanship and everything to do with the spirit of Christ in him, his story is simply amazing. It begins with his conversion to Christianity just when Idi Amin was at the height of his power there, murdering Christians by the thousands who would not convert to Islam. These people faced down death everytime they met together to pray, so we're not talking about a casual faith here.
He told many stories of escaping miraculously from death, of soldiers who came to meetings to kill ending up converting as well.

Today, Sozi has devoted his life to providing for about 1200 AIDS orphans there - employing teachers to teach them, raising money for the microbusiness programs for the foster families who shelter them and protect them from abduction by bands of roving child soldiers, feeding them and providing medical and dental care. He's also worked with the government to provide education about the realities of the devastating AIDS epidemic there. I have an engineer friend who is leaving in a few weeks to build a water filtration system for them. Sozi's original goal in coming here was to raise $50,000 and to find sponsors for individual children.

One thing my girlfriends and I did was kind of neat - we got to talking about Tupperware parties or Pampered Chef parties that housewives throw to invite people over to buy things they really don't need. We decided to throw a series of get-togethers called "Party With a Purpose" to channel some of that extra cash into the microlending program Sozi runs. People could literally buy a pig or a chicken, or even a cow or two for villagers to raise, breed and sell, or just make a donation to go towards buying vans that the people could drive as a taxi service. We also got the word out that way to invite people to a larger fundraising function later in the month that Peterson was going to speak at. Over 600 people ending up attending, and our tiny group was responsible for bringing about 150 of those guests .
Thanks to those efforts, an open bar and some incredible video footage and speakers, we have raised over $167,000 here in Portland alone, with many of the children now hooked up with sponsors as well. Not only that, but Sozi can now go ahead with plans to build some actual school buildings (they've been meeting in huts that get washed out with the rains). You can read more about it or about Sozi here http://www.gobacktogod.com/html/rev__peterson_sozi.html. The buttons on the left side will take you to various descriptions of what's going on there. I was especially impressed with the fact that something like 95% of all donations go directly to the people he's helping because of the grassroots nature of what he's doing. I would urge everyone to consider sponsoring a child.
Brynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2006, 02:47 PM   #239
Smartypants
MR. Smartypants to you.
 
Smartypants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oh, YOU PEOPLE go ahead and call it "Frisco." See if I care.
Posts: 3,967
The Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
__________________

"I don't think God wants us to believe in him. If he wanted us to believe in him he'd do something about it -- like exist perhaps!" --Linda Smith
Smartypants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2006, 10:55 PM   #240
Brynn
constantly amazed
 
Brynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: in the labyrinth of shared happiness
Posts: 6,206
^Thanks Smarty - can now breathe sigh of relief - although now worried sick am going straight to hell in handbasket, according to criteria.

(Thank goodness for the saving power of Jesus, who accepts me as I am with all of my horrible flaws! Since the recent picture JT left for me in another thread - and yes, it felt like a punch in the stomach, hurt my feelings a lot, I'm not made of rubber - I've decided that I might as well go ahead and declare the name of Jesus as often and as obnoxiously as possible, since I'm branded across the board as a ridiculous Bible-thumper anyway Ė a really fat ugly one, too, apparently. Might as well play the part with gusto for a while. Does not, however, preclude the possibility that he sincerely thought it would make me laugh, and besides, all offense is self-inflicted, so will get over it immediately. Besides, I think heís hilarious when itís not directed against me, so there you go).

Now that I've read the Sam Harris "Reply to a Christian" I can respond. It's a pleasure to read him - this guy comes with a brain, for one thing, and what he does, he does well.
ButÖ

First of all, maybe Mr. Harris gets a lot of hate mail from Christians, and maybe he doesn't. Maybe he gets one or ten whacko notes from crazy people, maybe he gets three hundred, but all he really needs for his purposes is one single hateful correspondence - which may or may not even be from an actual Christian. Definitely not a mature one, anyway. But fine, just for the sake of argument, let's just say he gets dozens and dozens of inarticulate letters inchoate with hate and anger. It does happen. I donít know why, but I can easily chalk it up to the work of SSSSSSSSAYTAN (sssssssssssatan!) (git thee behahhhhnd me in the name of JAYSUS!!) somewhere. Convenient, isnít it?
But maybe, just maybe, he gets hundreds if not thousands of extremely gracious and loving correspondence from Christians that he cannot and will not mention or use. In fact, I would bet money on it, and would win if heíd care to honestly verify. (Sssssayton, git thee and thy spirít of gambliní be hahhhhhnd me!) Think about it. The man has made a brilliant career out of being an atheist. I daresay his entire income and reputation depends upon it. Does he make a living out of attacking religious faith because he's constantly bombarded on all sides by irrational, unreasonable, unproductive proselytes trying desperately to personally convert him and one day he just finally snapped? Heís cares so deeply about the world and the way people are so horribly oppressed every day in every way by religion that he simply must speak out?
That's the picture he paints.
And anyone who's ever been trapped (as I myself have) in a single solitary instance of some immature Christian arguing a bit too strenuously for their conversion will nod their head wisely and jump on Harris' bandwagon. Ask me how I know - I did for years.

To tell you the truth, I can't say I blame anyone. Christians who believe they can argue anyone into believing in God/Jesus have forgotten how they themselves came to the faith. It happened - almost without exception - when they came to the end of themselves, when all pride was stripped away by a particular event, and they saw themselves for who they really were - someone who knew they needed help, and even more basically, craved love that was unconditional. When they were finally at their absolute lowest, they encountered the unrestricted, unreserved love of Christ. For me, it took several absolute low points to get to that place. Now, I still have low points Ė but I donít go out and attempt suicide anymore. Thatís what I call progress.
I happen to know many people who call themselves Christians who admit they've yet to experience that unconditional love fully.
But when Christians forget that, or haven't ever experienced it, and more importantly don't/can't/won't extend same to others, no wonder people hate them. Because Christianity without that is worse than worthless Ė it is destructive, deadly. Harris knows this, and has hit paydirt with it in a world that continually cries out for unconditional love.
Unfortunately he offers nothing for that cry in this article.

It actually sounds like not such a bad money-generating idea - hey, everyone hates telemarketers. I could make eradicating telephones and telemarketing companies my life's work. Or what about people who don't pick up after their dogs? Let's get rid of all the dogs. And cats, don't forget cats. And ohwhynot while we're at it why don't we just eliminate the keeping of all unnecessary pets in general and get on with our new, improved lives?

Ultimately I can't help but question Harris' motives, and especially can't help but compare him to a man like Peterson Sozi who, at great personal sacrifice, motivated and sustained by God alone, devotes his life to providing real, practical help to suffering people whom the rest of the world has deserted. I'd like to know what Harris has done for the world in general beyond writing and giving lectures. There are at least fifty Christians I could call right this instant if I couldnít pay my utility bill next month, or if my car or my mother dies unexpectedly. Why? Because in spite of all their faults, they take care of each other, and half the world besides. Thatís what they do. All other arguments against them become, well, sort of academic.

Harris does seem to have a working knowledge of ordinary Christian behavior and certain cultural beliefs that he can't possibly get out of a Bible - I do find myself wondering how he comes by them while forcing himself to wade through all his Christian hate mail.

So yeah, thatís just on his innuendos about Christian hate mail.

Last edited by Brynn : 06-03-2006 at 09:43 PM.
Brynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 11:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.