PETA

[zenbabe]

shut up!! ahahahhaha!

[zenbabe]

~~I wonder how they feel about bigger fish eating smaller fish!?!? Hahahhahaha "Fish are so misunderstood..."

PETA Campaign Pitches Fish As Smart

Tue Nov 16, 4:05 PM ET

By DAVID CRARY, AP National Writer

NEW YORK - Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives, animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish — contrary to stereotype — are intelligent, sensitive animals no more deserving of being eaten than a pet dog or cat.

Called the Fish Empathy Project, the campaign reflects a strategy shift by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals as it challenges a diet component widely viewed as nutritious and uncontroversial.

"No one would ever put a hook through a dog's or cat's mouth," said Bruce Friedrich, PETA's director of vegan outreach. "Once people start to understand that fish, although they come in different packaging, are just as intelligent, they'll stop eating them."

The campaign is in its infancy and will face broad skepticism. Major groups such as the American Heart Association (news - web sites) recommend fish as part of a healthy diet; some academics say it is wrong to portray the intelligence and pain sensitivity of fish as comparable to mammals.

"Fish are very complex organisms that do all sorts of fascinating things," said University of Wyoming neuroscientist James Rose. "But to suggest they know they what's happening to them and worry about it, that's just not the case."

PETA, headquartered in Norfolk, Va., has campaigned for years against sport fishing, challenging claims by Rose and others that fish caught by anglers do not feel pain. PETA also has joined other critics in decrying the high levels of mercury or other toxins in many fish and the pollution discharged by many fish farms.

The Empathy Project is a departure in two respects — attempting to depict the standard practices of commercial fishing as cruel and seeking to convince consumers that there are ethical reasons for not eating fish.

"Fish are so misunderstood because they're so far removed from our daily lives," said Karin Robertson, 24, the Empathy Project manager and daughter of an Indiana fisheries biologist. "They're such interesting, fascinating individuals, yet they're so incredibly abused."

The project was inspired by several recent scientific studies — widely reported in Britain but little-noticed in the United States — detailing facets of fish intelligence.

Oxford University researcher Theresa Burt de Perera, for example, reported that the blind Mexican cave fish is able to interpret water pressure changes to construct a detailed mental map of its surroundings.

"Most people dismiss fish as dimwitted pea-brains. ... Yet this is a great fallacy," wrote University of Edinburgh biologist Culum Brown in the June edition of New Scientist. "In many areas, such as memory, their cognitive powers match or exceed those of 'higher' vertebrates, including non-human primates."

Chris Glass of the Manomet Center for Conservation Sciences in Massachusetts led another recent study, showing how North Sea haddock developed abilities to avoid trawlers' nets.

"There's no doubt that fish of all shapes and forms are capable of learning fairly complex tasks," Glass said. "They can learn from their environment and experience."

Yet Glass declined to endorse the don't-eat-fish appeals.

"We don't want to be caught between warring factions," he said. "We're interested in helping the fisheries industry do a responsible job."

To press their argument, PETA activists plan demonstrations starting next month at selected seafood restaurants nationwide. PETA also will urge changes in commercial fishing practices, for example proposing that trawler crews stun fish before cutting them up.

Friedrich questioned why there is popular support for sparing marine mammals — dolphins and porpoises — yet minimal concern for species like tuna, "whose suffering would warrant felony animal cruelty charges if they were mammals."

Fish-welfare rules would be a new realm for U.S. commercial fishermen. The National Fisheries Institute, which represents them, has pledged to help sustain fish stocks but its members have never faced cruelty regulations regarding their catch.

"It's irresponsible to discourage people from eating fish at a time when doctors and dietitians advise eating it twice a week," said institute president John Connelly. "If anything, we should be eating more fish."

Friedrich acknowledges the difficulty of changing long-held customs, but thinks his project is worthwhile. "We'd rather go too far than not far enough," he said.

[Large Marge]

Originally posted by priceyfatprude
So riddle me this: what do y'all think of deer hunting season?

I think that if you eat meat, you can't be against deer hunting.

Here's why:

When you go out into the woods to kill a deer, you have to buy a license first, and those proceeds are used to determine deer habitat areas, stamp out disease, learn more about the species and to educate the public, among other things. A deer that is shot in the wild has spent its whole happy little life in the forest, eating in meadows and drinking from clear streams, before a hunter takes its life to help feed his family. This also reduces the size of the herd, which is VITAL because we are constantly infringing on their habitat. The more people who build close to the forests (and with all the breeders in this world, there will be more and more ...) the less habitat (space, food, etc.) is available to sustain the herds. There was one winter in Colorado, where thousands of deer starved, many on the side of the road where hunters and ranchers were FEEDING them in an attempt to keep them alive. It was awful. I'd rather be shot in the head than forced to starve to death in the middle of winter because there were just too damn many of us.

Can the hunter buy meat at the market for his family? Of course! But when he does, he's buying meat made from animals WHO WERE RAISED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THIS PURPOSE. Those animals lead terrible, miserable lives. Most are penned from birth to slaughter. Even "free range" animals aren't given the level of freedom that most consumers envision when they buy that meat.

I don't know how many of you know about the slaughter procedures approved by the Dept. of Ag, but OH MY GOD is it ever brutal and disgusting: FAR worse than a hunter shooting a deer clear through, ending its little life almost instantaneously.

So, if you're a vegetarian, I applaud you, but if you eat meat, don't condemn the hunter; they are acting more ethically than you are.

[Willow Sylph]

Originally posted by priceyfatprude
So riddle me this: what do y'all think of deer hunting season?

As a youth, I always hated it when my Dad would go up to Washington every year to go deer hunting. We didn't live 100 miles from the nearest town. We lived only a few blocks away from a grocery store. No one else in our family, except for him, liked venison. So I didn't see the point. It seems to me that the animal hunting that most men do isn't for purposes of "helping" keep the animal population from getting too large, for keeping disease down, to help stop overgrazing. Those are bullshit excuses for, I'll bet, at least 60+% of hunters. A lot of people like to hunt for the hunt - for the challenge of the kill. And I think that's sick. Crawl out of the flipping shallow end of the gene pool and join the evolved.

[Large Marge]

No need to be hostile.

You are correct: I've never heard a man say that he goes hunting to "help" the herds. I've heard a few offer it as a weak defense against anti-hunters, saying "Besides, it helps thin the herds." Most men hunt for the thrill of the hunt or because it's what their daddies did. For many, it's a culture thing.

But there are plenty of families who really need the meat. I've known them personally. And, there are plenty of women who hunt, also. I am one, but I don't get any thrill from it. If you're interested, I'll write a nice long posting on my first elk-hunting experience, from a city girl's perspective.

But people's reasons for hunting are irrelevant to my point in the last posting. Their money still goes to study habitat, conduct research, learn about the species, educate the public. The fact is that if those hunters didn't hunt, the herds would grow to an uncontrollable size. Already we have encroached so far on their habitat that we kill them with our cars daily; they eat in our gardens every chance they get; one even slept right next to my house in the summer heat (and I'm noisy). They don't have anywhere else to go as it is, and if we let the herds grow and grow, there won't be enough food or land for them to survive. That is a fact. Disease kills some (chronic wasting disease is an example), but not enough to make a difference.

I love venison, too, but you don't have to kill a deer to get it. You can buy it in special stores, get it from friends, order it online, etc. Sounds like your Daddy was trying to make you feel better.

But here's the thing: If you eat meat, how can you find hunting "sick"?

Someone KILLS the cow, chicken, pig, that YOU eat. And it's not one clean shot, either. Cows are hung by their back feet, and then a man in a white apron slits their throats. They hang there, alive, while all the blood drains out of them. I have no idea how long that takes, but I wouldn't want to be the cow. I have seen video of it with my own eyes.

I've never seen a hunter do that.

I think it's much more chickenshit, inhumane and unevolved to continue to support the commercial manufacture of meat for consumers by buying meat at the supermarket.

The way to get out of the shallow end of the deep pool is to stop thinking like everyone else and question things, even if it's unpopular.

[Aphrodite]

Hunting from a non-violent will not kill anything persons standpoint.

I catch mice in my house. I have it down to a science. Then I carry them outside. Yes they probably come right back in, but hopefully next time they don't let themselves get caught.

I carry spiders outside, and flies get shoo'd out the door. I used to fish, catch and release, but when I was younger I actually made them into a nice butterfly fillet.
Until I learned to dive and saw them show curiousity and personality in their own habitat.

I do eat meat. It comes on a styrofoam plate wrapped in saran wrap. I can't stop thinking of it as flesh. I disect while I cook and while I eat. I was a vegetarian for two years. That stopped when my mom made a roast. I am an omnivore. I eat everything. Meat, plants, and all the chemicals the gov't allows in our processing of foods.

I see hunting as a natural part of life. If it is done correctly, it is rather humane. Sometimes more humane than the abatoires that our grocery store beef comes from. Most abatoires thump the cow on the temple to knock them silly before they are slaughtered.

I could never hunt myself, but I will eat meat from a hunter.

The sterile packaging and non-animal perspective of grocery store meat doesn't take away the fact that it is flesh. Look at chicken and turkey. I see ribs and legs and a spine and have a hard time with it.

I kind of like knowing that the venison I am eating had a little fun before it was killed. Veal will never touch my lips because they are raised in a terribly inhumane way. No light, No play, No room to move so that they stay tender.

I figure meat is meat. If you eat it, you know what it is and that it died so you could eat it. Be thankful every time you eat meat, whether it is grocery store sterile, or hunter prepared.

At least the hunters have to work for it and appreciate the value of the life they took.

I disagree completely with big game thrill hunting. No need to shoot it unless you are going to use every bit of the meat. I don't need a stool made from an elephant foot. I don't need a gorilla paw or an ivory handled letter opener. I certainly don't wear fox fur or mink. Unless I see mink and fox on the shelves at a grocery store I am not going to eat it. It was raised and killed for vanity only. THAT IS WRONG.

[Large Marge]

I couldn't agree more.

Starting Jan. 1, I'm going to TRY to become a vegetarian again.

Like you, I did it for two years (ok, I had ONE Big Mac during that time), but when I moved to Colorado, it was too hard to be a vegetarian. I'm in Hawaii now, and it'll be a lot easier.

[Willow Sylph]

Great points, Marge & 'Dite. I agree with you both - more than you might think, Marge. I'm not being hostile, no more hostile than a man or woman who hunts for the kill. That's my "beef."

There was a time when I lived way out in the country in Oregon, where I could sit by the window in the early morning and watch the deer come up to my window to pick at plants and grass. I would be thinking, wow, this is absolutely amazing. An absolute gift to be able to see. And my father in law would see these beautiful deer, get a big smile on his face, and raise his hands up in a gesture of shooting a shotgun. I find that rather sick. Call me hostile? THAT is hostile. To take pleasure in killing. To take pleasure in dominating and bringing down something that you think is weaker than you. I don't know entirely what the motivation is, but it's based in a sick place. And I know many other hunters have this mentality. That is why I said, and STILL say, CRAWL OUT OF THE FVCKING SHALLOW END OF THE GENE POOL, to people who have that sick kind of mentality.

I know where grocery store meat comes from. I know where leather shoes come from. I know how we are able to use most of our toiletries. Because some rabbit got shot up in the eyes with the chemicals that are put in hair care and skin care products so that we can enjoy using them. None of that is lost on me. Believe me. I have been a vegetarian since I was 15. Over half my life!. And my main reason at that point, was because of the lack of humanity in the delivery of it all. Because of the unnecessary abuse, overuse, torture, and the sick mentality that came with the exploitation of animals in most uses. You cited some situations (how cows are killed in the beef industry) that only confirm my convictions. For many years I lived in dairy country. Happy cows, my ass. I've watched herds of cows wade in shit, mud, and sludge up to their utters, in a tiny living quarter. I've watched cows in different stages of dying and suffering because there were too many to watch and take care of in the first place. All because of the greed of some dairy farmer who wanted to minimize spending and maximize income. Sigh. I could go on...

I understand that animals may die in order for humans to live. I don't knock people who eat meat. Never have. In fact, ironically, I get more hostility from meat-eaters because of my vegetarianism than the other way around. I tend to think that it's an insecurity thing on their part, but I don't know for sure. I don't knock hunters who hunt for FOOD. I agree that, if you're going to kill an animal, they'd be better off being shot in the head and killed instantly than being torured in the way you mentioned. But you weren't posing the question about cows, about the beef industry, or the fur industry, or any other industry that uses animals in some way. You asked our opinions on HUNTING, and I gave you mine.




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I like your signature line, by the way.

[Large Marge]

Uh, actually, I didn't ask anyone's opinions on hunting.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by priceyfatprude
So riddle me this: what do y'all think of deer hunting season?
------------------------------------------------------------------------


I was saying that I think that if you eat meat, you can't be against deer hunting.

Then I explained why.

Your crack about the gene pool seemed intended for me, but perhaps I was being over-sensitive.

[zenbabe]

I crave red, bloody meat when I am on my period. Maybe it is an iron thing.

[masterofNone]

Originally posted by Large Marge
Your crack about the gene pool seemed intended for me, but perhaps I was being over-sensitive.

i think it's not you... i think it's some father issues.

[Willow Sylph]

Oops, sorry about that. The question about hunting was posed, but by Pricey, not you.

Nope, it wasn't an attack directed at you, Marge. My statement was directed at those who hunt just because they love to kill things. You clearly don't feel that way. Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking or insulting you.

[Willow Sylph]

Originally posted by masterofNone
i think it's not you... i think it's some father issues.

You know nothing about my relationship with my father. Perhaps all of your beliefs and decisions are rooted in some deep-seeded disatisfaction with your upbringing, but mine aren't. Particularly not my feelings about hunting and animal ethics.

[Large Marge]

Zenbabe said: I crave red, bloody meat when I am on my period. Maybe it is an iron thing.

Me too . Rare teriyaki steak. Gotta have it. And a glass of red wine, too.

[masterofNone]

sorry... father-in-law issues.