Fabuloso Chess/ArenaRoom1

From zefrank

Jump to: navigation, search


The Game - Brigade V. Kingpatzer

Move History - Bd6 Game

  1. O-O b6
  2. a3 Bd6
  3. cxd5 Nxc3
  4. bxc3 exd5
  5. c4 c6
  6. cxd5 cxd5
  7. a4 Qe7
  8. a5 bxa5
  9. Qa4 Na6
  10. Qxa5 Nb4
  11. Ba3 Be6
  12. Ne5 Nxd3
  13. Nxd3 Bxa3
  14. Rxa3 Rfc8
  15. Rfa1 Rc7
  16. Nc5 Bf7
  17. Qd2 Qg5
  18. Ra6 Re7
  19. Qb4 f4
  20. Nd3 f3
  21. g3 Ree8
  22. Rxa7 Rxa7
  23. Rxa7 Qf5
  24. Qb7 Rc8
  25. Ra8 Rf8
  26. Rxf8+ Kxf8
  27. Ne5 Bh5
  28. Qb8+ Ke7
  29. Nc6+ Kd7
  30. Qb7+ Kd6
  31. Ne7 Qh3
  32. Yea .. I just saw that line .. let me take another look.
Bd6 - Start Position
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Last Move: 38. Ne7 Qh3

Move History - Bxc3 Game

  1. O-O b6
  2. a3 Bxc3
  3. bxc3 Ba6
  4. cxd5 Bxd3
  5. Qxd3 exd5
  6. c4 Nc6
  7. Bb2 Na5
  8. cxd5 Qxd5
  9. Ne5 Rfe8
  10. Qc2 c5
  11. f3 cxd4
  12. fxe4 Qxe5
  13. exd4 Qxe4
  14. Rac1 g6
  15. Qxe4 fxe4
  16. Rc7 Rf8
  17. d5 Rxf1+
  18. Kxf1 Rd8
  19. Rg7+ Kf8
  20. Rxa7 Nc4
  21. Bg7 Ke8
  22. Bh6 Rxd5
  23. Rxh7 Rh5
  24. h3 Nxa3
  25. Rh8+ Kd7
  26. Bg7 RxR
  27. Bxh8 Ke6
  28. g4 Nc4
  29. Ke2 b5
  30. h4 Ne5
  31. h5 Nxg5
Bxc3 - Start Position
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Last Move: 38. h5

Player Comments

  • Aight .. I'll play white against Bxd3 if you play white against Bc6 .. and we'll see what develops. ßrigaderant 10:00, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • sounds good Kingpatzer 10:17, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Don't forget to update the board headings with the move.  :-) ßrigaderant
  • I'm a ludite! Be glad I can figure out how to sign my name :) But I'll try! Kingpatzer 10:28, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • You're doing fine .. no worries. ßrigaderant 10:50, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • here's where it gets interesting. In the Bd6 version I'm tempted to play the intermediate move of Bd2 so that my rooks are connected, but I don't think there's any long term advantage so the captuer here is just as good. In the Bxn version I think the line with Qd6 instead of Nc6 is also worth looking at. Kingpatzer 10:53, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • We have time .. we're flying through this pretty quickly .. move submission is Sunday .. we can always bring it back after we've come to a conclusion. ßrigaderant
  • unfortunately, I have furniture to build ... have a couple of beds for my kids in the workshop that I've promised the wife I'd finish for ages now . .. Kingpatzer 11:08, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • oh ... strategy comment, I don't see how black is going to have long term success with that isolated and blocked d-pawn and the advanced f pawn in Bd6 line. This is the position I see as a long term disadvantage(not immediately losing but a huge negative) but worse, I see black has being weak on both the a2-g8 and the a3-f8 diagonals in this line. In the BxN line, the same weakness is there, but white can't exploit it nearly so easily. In the Bxc3 line I just don't see a good plan for white from here Kingpatzer 11:10, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • a5 push shows the weakness in black's pawn structure i think. Kingpatzer 11:20, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I disagree .. it'll be a handle to pry apart white's position .. watch (he's all alone with plenty of pieces to support his advance. Meanwhile .. things are beginning to look grim for black on the other board ... ßrigaderant
  • really, where? in all seriousness, I see an even game on the Bxn board and I see great attack lines on the Bd6 board. Black can't protect both the a2-g8 and the a3-f8 diagonals on that board, and that advantage will be decissive long term. But it starts from black's poor pawn position that is forced early in that variation. Kingpatzer 11:32, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I think your first post on BxN is right on .. it's just solid. Like you said "best of the exchange variations" Kingpatzer 11:48, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I appreciate that .. but I think maintaining our bishop is better than trading it off .. if we settle on exchanging it I'm in agreement. Truth be told, if both games play out even, then I'll advocate personal preference and admit that they're both good moves .. but I'm still not sold on the exchange with the knight .. as evidenced by white's aggresive play (and see where we end up) ..
  • Until exd I think white has played the BxN variation very well, it's just that for every option open to white in that line that I can see, black can maintain equality. Black is winning now, but that's because exd was a mistake. with Bx it's an even game. On the flip side, white is winning the Bxd6 game and has been since 10. cxd5 precisely because the pawn structure gives white so much latitude but doesn't give black many choices. white has targets and lines there Kingpatzer 12:14, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
in all honesty, both of these games are all very natural moves with the exception of Qa4, that's a little counter-intuitive, but it's not hard to find if you're looking to own the diagonals. Kingpatzer 11:53, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
and again, it's not decissive, but it seems to me that black is working really hard in the Bd6 game to stay afloat.
  • I still think that after THIS move black's game is worse below than above .. watch how it plays out. ßrigaderant
  • white's going to a worse pawn structure heading to hte endgame .. i just don't see whatever it is you see here the bishop is only slight compensation. it's an even game. Kingpatzer 12:04, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • exd is a blunder, you need to take with a bishop to maintain equality. Kingpatzer 12:09, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Capitalize on it then .. bishop covers d5, isolated center pawn and your Knight is stranded and inactive .. play it out .. and you have to admit that white's bishop is stronger than black's Knight (pawns on both sides of the board in the endgame favors bishops).ßrigaderant
  • all things being equal that's true. The problem with most club players is that they rarely take into account what isn't equal. white has an isolated pawn and black is playing with a 2-1 pawn advantage on the queen side. Those two factors make the bishop v knight battle moot. with correct play this is a drawn game -- (whcih demonstrates that at least with us as players , BxN is a favorable move for black Kingpatzer 12:20, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • on the Bd6 board your bishop is already on d6, I assume you mean Bxa3 and I'm adusting the board accordingly if htat's wrong, please re-move Kingpatzer 12:17, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • sorry. i'm having problems iwth the other board, I knocked it back a move (I realized I didn't play it out how I had planned to .. I keep getting up also .. (same boat as you) ßrigaderant
  • no worries. i'm having problems iwth the other board, keep looking at moves and then remaking them .. i'm sticking with g6 now .... I need another chess board :) Kingpatzer 12:29, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Yea .. same thing here .. I was thinking Rfc8 for the Ba6 board .. but I think f4 is the handle to pry white's chain apart (if not mate .. play careful) .. and on the other board a queen trade favors White .. I agree that both moves are playable, but I really hope you'll come over to the Ba6 camp with me .. it really is a more powerful game. ßrigaderant 19:15, 8 July 2006 (PDT) - Board set up wrong .. i thought your knight was on e5 still, not d3 .. back to the drawing board ...
  • i'm afraid i'm just out of time to do this. i have to hit hte woodshop or the wife is going to kill me .. those beds were suppossed to be done last month :( I'll be back to finish this up tonight if you're around Kingpatzer 12:37, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • No sweat .. I'll be here (no plans tonight as I'm babysitting the little one all weekend) ßrigaderant 12:54, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I probably won't be around tomorrow .. but I'd appreciate it if you'd concede that in both games the player with the bishop is in a superior position. In the Bxc3 game, you're either going to be a pawn down in a few moves, with only one rook (if you capture RxQ you're liable to lose both rooks, if you capture with your pawn, there's a rook trade that leaves you with Rook and Knight vs. Bishop, and I have the superior game, pawns will get picked off because I can check you and cover both sides of the board with my rook and my bishop covering me from a distance) and it's a winning endgame for black .. which is clearly a weaker position. The Bd6 game is winning because the bishop and queen can support each other .. while your knight is (again) too limited to play both sides of the board. At the very least, you know that the b6 move (that the community voted for) supports keeping the bishop, whereas c6 encouraged trading the bishop off. We (as a whole) decided that keeping the bishop was preferable, and it pays off throughout this game (as I've shown here, I think, rather definitively. Maybe the game isn't entirely black's in the first board (and can go either way), but you know the 2nd board is a losing proposition) .. we've played this game out for 2 weeks .. please help us have another unanimous vote. ßrigaderant
As an aside .. we both know that Ze hasn't played the best moves possible, and we've both probably played a game (in these two boards) that is stronger than he'll play. I'm not suggesting that we CAN'T win with the Bxc3, but I think it'll be easier with Bd6.
  • In all seriousness, what the hell are you looking at?? In the Bd6 game black is dead in teh water after rfa1. his center pawns on his own color complex makes his bishop weak. In the BxN game it's an even match. in other words, it's good for black. The point isn't that BxN is winning. The point is that it isn't losing. Bd6 is. We can play it out if you want, but Bd6 ends in a loss for black. BxN proceeds to an even game. In Bd6 after F4 and g3 that Bishop is uselss.Kingpatzer 09:44, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Do you see what I'm looking at now? Bd6 game is still even (White can't mobilize an offensive) and you're about to get jacked (at least a pawn) in the Bxc3 game. ßrigaderant 15:23, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Bd6 game will take some manouvering, but black has a decissive advantage. KxN the pawn won't be something you can turn to a win. It's an even game with correct play Kingpatzer 15:45, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
  • do you see yet that BxN is in dynamic equality while Bd6 is a losing proposition? I really hope so! Anyway I'm off to bed, I'll gladly finish these with you tomorrow though. Kingpatzer 21:11, 9 July 2006 (PDT)

Observer Comments Welcomed

The play in Bxc3 seems pretty good on both sides. I think Black is slightly ahead at the end but would be even better off if he'd done Qxc2 instead of g6 so as to keep his rooks ahead of White's isolated passed pawn.
Uh .. black didn't Qxc2 in the Bxc2 game .. look at the move list. I wish Kingpatzer would have played it out a few moves .. it's not obvious, but white trading queens is going to kill Black in the end. It'll be white with King/Rook/Pawn against Black with King/Rook. ßrigaderant
I know he didn't. I'm saying he should have because now he's going to have to recapture with the rook which puts it in a useless location. But yeah, it's not obvious at all how that disadvantage is going to translate into Black being a pawn down. Jeff
Is it obvious now Jeff? ßrigaderant 15:27, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
When I made that comment I was assuming black would play Rxe4 instead of fxe4. This would give him the opportunity to get both his rooks on the same file and prevent the current situation. As it stands, yes, white is going to pick up an extra pawn, but the advanced state of Black's passed pawn might just make up for it. I'll wait and see how you guys play it out, but given Black's mistake of g6 instead of Qxc2 it has lost quite a bit of relevance as to the relative merits of the two variations under consideration. Jeff
Actually, I think it shows that black can screw up (or at least play inaccurately) for several moves in a row in BxN and still be in a drawn game. Whereas even making very carefull moves in Bd6 he's still behind the 8-ball. You're right, being a pawn down won't matter in this end-game. It's still quite drawn
Oh man. I was not expecting White to play Rxa7 first. That looks like a pretty bad mistake (Rxh7 would have made Black move his rook instead of starting the Nc4 action). I think Black has it in the bag now. Jeff
Not in the bag, black can't be fast and lose. But the fact that black could be so lazy and still get into this good a game shows why BxN is the better move Kingpatzer 17:38, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
I think White screwed up in the Bd6 game with 13 cxd5. It would be better to keep the pressure on with Bb2. But even that improvement for White, Black's not hurting as much as I imagined he would be.
OMG fxe4? This is going downhill fast. Hmm, maybe not so bad but I still think Rxe4 was better. Maybe I'm overlooking something. --Jeff
So the Bd6 game is looking pretty lost for Black after 25. ... Re7. I'm not sure what Black should have done, I guess maybe that's just the position. Jeff

It's earlier than that when white gets the a2 and a3 diagonals. Black just can't protect both. And that's a result of the pawn structure allowed because BxN was NOT played. Kingpatzer 17:36, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
  • OK Kingpatzer, I'm curious. Why 36 ... b5 instead of 36 ... Ne5? Jeff 10:45, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • because after Ke3 white can hold the draw more easily than with b5, I think. g5 is also playable. All these lines are probably draws (unless there's something wierd I'm not seeing) but b5 looks most right to me. I don't think Ne5 is wrong (I looked at it) but, as with most end-games, there maybe some move-order thing lurking here that I'm not seeing. This is the least potent part of my game, so . . . Kingpatzer 11:00, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I'm pretty sure Black has a win with 36 ... Ne5 37. Ke3 Kd5 38. Bxe5 Kxe5. 37 ... Ne5 might even still be a win. Jeff 11:09, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
        • in your line isn't 38. Bxe5 sub-optimal for white? 38. Bg7 b5 40. Bf8 holds doesn't it? Kingpatzer 11:22, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
          • What about 40. ... Nd3. Can White really hold it? Update: Yes he can. I see it now. In a pawn race black queens first but white queens with check. Subtle but definite draw. Wow. So 37. h4 (above) is the losing move. Jeff 13:08, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Alternate endgame scenario
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
36. Ke2 Ne5
37. Ke3 Kd5
38. Bg7 b5
40. Bf8 Nd3
Personal tools