Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move10

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting Closed, Ba6 wins, we're all gonna die (sadly)

Today's Suggested Moves will be posted after Ze's broadcast, and the voting polls will open @7PM EDT and close at 12AM EDT, in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

  • (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here

Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

  • I really like the work you guys have done with aiding new users, but I find the style of having just one speculative line a bit restrictive... I really like to see the different board positions, and then before the voting the worst position from each move should be put as the speculative line. --gelbitalk 15:28, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Another problem I found was that the template code gets moved around and doesn't occur at the end... I deleted it because I thought it was duplicated, but it had just moved into the middle. There has to be an easier way... --gelbitalk 15:28, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Cut and paste the following to vote:

# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 

Strategy Discussion

Current Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last Move: 10. bxc3 ...

Contents


Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigaderant

  • Lets not trade the horse for a pawn if we dont have to. Lets figure out Ze's options & how to respond to them. Anyone think he is going to bring out that castle with our b6 covered like it is? Should we stage c-a6? -AnonHC
  • Another option - and this sucks, a little - is to retreat with that Knight to f6 (hi, i'm new here) Jes5199 11:07, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I don't think our knight is under any legitimate pressure. Ze will not trade bishop + queen for knight + pawn, and an Ba6 move effectively negates an attack on our d5 pawn for purposes of later hitting the knight. - arc

Suggested Move Summary

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Ba6
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Nf6
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 c5


Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 c6


Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Bb7


Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 b5


Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Nd7





Speculative Move Discussion



Bb7


Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggest Move 10. bxc3 Bb7

Discussion

I think this this is our best possible move. It not only defends d5 but also allows for an interesting capture trade - which will be to our advantage. sepllcehck

  • I think Ze is intentionally voting on crappy moves. - arc
  • after 11. Nd2 where are we going? I see something like 11. Nd2 c6 12. cxd5 exd5 13. f3 Nxd2 14. Bxd2 It looks bad to me. There's no way to mobilize our knight, we're still behind in development, and that f pawn is going to drop. Kingpatzer 13:01, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • So let me get this straight .. 'we're still behind in development' .. yet you'd rather push a pawn (creating MORE pawn tension) than develop a piece? You see 11. Nd2 c6 .. which is a mistake, we need to get our pieces on the board, and if he's making a move to attack the queenside with his Knight (which is vulnerable, we have no pieces there) then the proper response to 11. Nd2 is Nc3 to maintain.ßrigaderant
      • actually I prefere a Bishop move, but think we can get to the same relative position with a pawn move first. The point being not that it's a pawn move, but that it addresses the issue of not allowing white to open the center to white's advantage. Kingpatzer 18:17, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I don't know what the worry is about Nd2. 11. cxd5 is plenty good for White and is reason enough to pick 10. ... Ba6. Jeff 19:30, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

If ze makes a pawn response then we push the bishop - if ze goes passive then we attack with the pawn - ze will then have to retaliate with the bishop at that point we move our knight to g5 - we then have a very strong attacking stance. Don't worry about Nd2

  • how? after 11. Nd2 what do you see happening? What specific moves? Because I see us ending up with a totally trashed pawn structure. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't see it, so please show me! Kingpatzer 13:40, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I don't see much problem with 11. Nd2 dxc4, then 12. Bxc4 Rf6 or 12. Nxc4 Nd6, but I don't like the sequence played out on the board #1 --gelbitalk 17:11, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Forget it - I had a brain fart. I was working mentally rather than with a real board. I am definitely canceling my vote. Sorry about that. Ze would have to be an idiot to fall into the trap I was thinking.... .sepllcehck

  • Your premise for the 'trap' is unsound, yes, but the move itself is logical, reasoned, and intelligent. We lost a developed (advanced) bishop in the last move (and it's an old rule to AVOID trading Knights for bishops) .. that exchange cost us (even though we traded pieces) .. we need to get another piece on the board, and this has the added benefit of keeping our center pawns chained (cxd5 Bxd5, c4 Bb2, c5 bxc5 is the only threat Ze has at this point, and it's not much of one). ßrigaderant 18:05, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  • "Can we please develop a piece and try to get some control of the center? Thank you!" That's precisely the point of Ba6. It places the bishop on a powerful diagonal, restricts the center, and forces white to concede any advantage. Something this move doesn't do quite as well. Kingpatzer 18:47, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Possible board positions

Speculative Line 1
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
10. bxc3 Bb7 11. cxd5 exd5 12. c4

Votes

  1. VOTE by Thaddeus 12:58, 11 July 2006 (PDT): Development FTW!
  2. VOTE by ßrigaderant 18:10, 11 July 2006 (PDT) : We were already behind in development, now we've further behind. We need to get our pieces mobilized before we get crushed underfoot.
  3. VOTE by dfry: Can we please develop a piece and try to get some control of the center? Thank you!
  4. VOTE by --Lordsah 20:49, 11 July 2006 (PDT)


Ba6

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggest Move 10. bxc3 Ba6

Discussion

  • after bxc3 the only way for black to maintain equality is to pressurize white's center pawn mass so that he can't break the center open to his advantage. Ba6 is highly thematic of these types of pawn formations. This move is the only path to equality. An example game using this move is in the chess lobby Kingpatzer 10:50, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

* don't you mean Ba6? I'm confused.

  • I like this move. It keeps us open, and defends the center. -christian
  • So he takes d5 then we take bd3 then he takes the bishop with his queen... He ends up a pawn ahead and we end up with a pace advantage - which we have already rightnow.. Please educate me on how this move is supposed to work... sepllcehck
  • if he takes on d5 he's making an overly agressive move that leads to a very even game. 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5 and we have a center with relatively immobile pawns for white (which impede his dark squared bishop) some great outposts for our two knights, and a very even game. I personally think that white's best response here is 11. Ne5, but that should hold no fear for us at this juncture. Kingpatzer 13:39, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Just a question, Kingpatzer - why 12. Qxd3 exd5 instead of 12. Qxd3 Qxd5?
      • (PS - the question mark is denoting my question, not chess notation :)
    • answer -- 12. Qxd3 Qxd5 is a little lacking in ambition for black. It's not objectively bad (probably leads to an even game after something like 13. Nd2 Nxd2 14. Bxd2 c5 15. f3 Nc6). But by playing exd5 black creates an imbalance in the pawn structure (4-3 on the Queen side, 3-4 on the king side) that is favorable to black. This is because while both sides are relatively immobile on the king side, black has ample mobility on hte queen side as well as a 1 pawn advantage. This pawn structure will be a lasting advantage that should serve as the strategic back-bone of anything we plan in the future. Kingpatzer 18:53, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
        • 13. c4 threatening the queen, forcing the queen to move anyway. At least that's the way I see it. There may be more relevant reasons but that is the first thing that occurred to me. salmancini
          • No, I think that's a good move... I have drawn up some boards... and this line is on #2, we could go back at Qb7 and that would be fine... but we have to look at 11. Ne5 as well! --gelbitalk 15:12, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
            • I agree we have to carefully examine reasonable responses. But I can't find any reason that suggests to me this is a bad line for black. I find lots of ways for white to go wrong, but if we stay focused on restricting the center, we'll be fine. Kingpatzer 18:49, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  • We need to put pressure on that c pawn to stop it moving. This is the only sensible move. All others leads to nastiness IMO. We also need to start covering the e5 square. It's completely Ze's right now. He has pressure on 3 of the 4 center squares. This move effectively removes Ze's c pawn pressure on d5 thus creating more of a balance in the center. We then have to eventually move the knight to d7 me thinks to try and start protecting the center at e5. But playing against Ze, it'd be alot funner to start sacking pieces just to see what Ze says. If anyone suggests sacking pieces, count my vote in. V 15:12, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • This exerts NO pressure on the C pawn, this encourages him to either advance (to c5) or capture (cxd5) .. we need to play DEFENSIVELY .. and this is not a sound strategy. That bishop is lost if we make this move, and we'll be playing catch-up for the rest of the game. ßrigaderant 18:17, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
      • rofl. advancing to c5 is fine by us. It will create a wonderful game for black!! Kingpatzer 19:05, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  • It's a weak move, and we're handing Ze the center (which is a blunder in the first 10 moves of a game) .. Ze can force us to either exchange off our remaining bishop (through Cxd5) and/or develop our Knight to the flank. We've completely lost tempo at this point, and it'll be Ze's game .. which is losing. The last move hurt, this will cost us even more. ßrigaderant 18:15, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • it's not weak, it's entirely thematic to the position. I find it happens over 12,000 times in my database of GM level games when white has the e3, d4, c4,c3, (a2 or a3) pawn complex and black has the a7-b6-c7/6-d5 pawn complex and has traded his dark square bishop for white's queen side knight. It's a favorite move of Kasparov, Kramnik, Anand, Leko, Topalov and other's in such positions. You claim it will be Ze's game, but you could prove no advantage with this move against me and you played a very good game. Lastly, you continually insist that Bishops are better than Knights. I strongly suggest you pick up and read either Watson's Secrets of Modern Chess Strategy: Advances since Nimzowitsch or Soltis' Rethinking The Chess Pieces, even Lasker knew better (if you look at his games more than his books) Kingpatzer 18:23, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
      • OK, I've enjoyed lurking up to now, but whoa! Kingpatzer, isn't that a pretty heavy trip to lay on us all? How about we focus on the move at hand. I don't know about the rest, but does anyone really have the time to delve into that all now? Still, I find the logic behind this move pretty persuasive. Chainsaw 20:12, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Possible board positions

Speculative Line 1
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
10. bxc3 Ba6 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5
Speculative Line 2
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
10. bxc3 Ba6 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 Qxd5 13. c4
Speculative Line 3
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
10. bxc3 Ba6 11. Ne5
Speculative Line 4
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
#3 11. .. dxc4 12. Bxe4 fxe4 13. Qxe4 Nd7


Votes

  1. VOTE by christian 16:12, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  2. VOTE by V 16:14, 11 July 2006 (PDT): add a comment! HUH?
  3. VOTE by Jes5199 16:45, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  4. VOTE by Ess 17:29, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  5. VOTE by Jeff 17:31, 11 July 2006 (PDT): Keeps white from running the show (even though Ze actually does run the show :-)
  6. VOTE by TtT 17:45, 11 July 2006 (PDT): Aye agree this seems best
  7. VOTE by Reagank 18:29, 11 July 2006 (PDT): per Kingpatzer's example game, this looks like the best move
  8. VOTE by Kingpatzer 18:26, 11 July 2006 (PDT) : I could support c6 as well. I see the argument for Bd7 but I think white can force us to an inferior pawn structure. this is solid and sound.
  9. VOTE by Geedubber 18:33, 11 July 2006 (PDT) : What more can I say than has already been said
  10. VOTE by SalMancini I have liked this move since I saw it in the arena with king'n'brig.
  11. VOTE by JudiciousH 19:38, 11 July 2006 (PDT): I fear to defy Patzer
  12. VOTE by Wingnut 20:28, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  13. VOTE by Jubba 21:11, 11 July 2006 (PDT): Nice pressure on the diagonal here...looks good

Nf6

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Nf6

Discussion

  • This moves our knight out of the way. Why is this necessary?
  • 11. cxd5 Qxd5 (exd5 drops the f pawn!) 12. c4 "and black's in desperate need of a good idea, or in chess notation +-" Kingpatzer 11:42, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Yes I agree this is quite lost... after backing away, see the #2 board... where I think the moves are almost forced, except the first --gelbitalk 15:54, 11 July 2006 (PDT)



Possible board positions

Speculative Line 1
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
10. bxc3 Nf6 11. cxd5 Qd6 12. c4
Speculative Line 2
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
12. .. Qd6 13. e4 fxe4 14. Bxe4 Nxe4 15. Qxe4 Qc6 16. Re1 Qxe4 15. Rxe4

Votes

c5

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 c5

Discussion

I like this move because it threatens his pawn at d4. Suppose 11. xc5 xc5 - this opens up the diagonal for our queen. mayorcjSR 12:19, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

  • 11. cxd3 exd5 12. c4 Ba6 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. Bb2 Nd7 15. cxd5 and black is left with 2 isolated pawns (a and c) to white's isolated a pawn and passed (though perhaps too far advanced!) d pawn. This is going down a very dangerous path. I don't see how we make use of that diagonal easily because we're behind in development. I think it may be too early for us to encourage opening up the center. We need to catch up in development and make sure that however we open the center we do so in a way that keeps at least one of white's bishops bottled up. This however, does suggest that c6 might be playable here . . . 10. ... c6 11. cxd5 cxd5 12. c4 Ba6 looks solid enough. Kingpatzer 12:40, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Wait, don't give up on this line just yet... 12. .. Be6 the immediate defense seems playable! The above line after Ne5 (I mean the one that is probably the main competition: 10. .. Bd7 11. Ne5) isn't that much better off, these lines require some analysis still... as does the one below (c6) --gelbitalk 16:20, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
      • ok. I didn't consider 12. ... Be6. (I really hate using my bishops as a tall pawn!) but I don't see it as all that playable. White's going to play f3, if not immediately, then pretty soon, when our knight goes where? g5? back to f6? At that point isn't dxc5 putting black in a real bind? If you haven't guessed already, I'm a BIG believer in pawn structure. I honestly believe that 99% of chess is taking care of your pawns, if you do that well, you'll have places for your pieces :). Maybe this is playble, heck it might even be rock solid, but it's not the kind of game I can play well . . . I'd be fretting about isolated pawns for 20 moves :) Kingpatzer 19:01, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
        • This sounds like a very reasonable objection! I'm not changing my vote, but I acknowledge your analysis. Indeed, f3 will be played and the knight would have to retreat to d6, unless it has to capture at c5 before. So yes, this is maybe a bit more difficult than the above... but that position isn't very comfortable either :) --gelbitalk 19:45, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
          • yeah, but I know and understand that pawn center I can find my way in those games without fear. Give me a couple of isolated pawns and make me rely on peice play and the big reason I'm not rated higher starts to show :) Kingpatzer 21:08, 11 July 2006 (PDT)


Possible board positions

Speculative Line 1
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
10. bxc3 c5 11. cxd5 exd5 12. c4
Speculative Line 2
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
#1 12. .. Be6 13.

Votes

  1. mayorcjSR 17:52, 11 July 2006 (PDT) : I still think this is the best route, it creates a build-up of tension in the center rather than retreating or trading.
  2. gelbitalk 19:26, 11 July 2006 (PDT): Yeah, it nicely prolongs the illusion that we stand a chance! (I'm okay with the bishop moves too, but this move felt lonely and in need of support)
  3. VOTE by Chainsaw 20:21, 11 July 2006 (PDT): Like voting for Ralph Nader in 2000, it won't make a difference one way or another and because of that, I'm free to vote my conscience rather than vote for the leader!
  • hey man I voted for nader in '96 salmancini

c6

Discussion

  • not as good as an immediate Ba6, but seems to do the job well enough via a different move order. 10. .. c6 11. cxd5 cxd5 12. c4 Ba6 is the critical line. All other moves for white at move 11 allow us latitude to respond. Does this move order create any issues or solve any problems that an immediate Ba6 doesn't? Kingpatzer 12:43, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 c6

Votes


b5

Discussion

I thought this move might lead to a little bit of off-pressure to White's structure. I'm not very experienced, could you tell? hobophobe 17:17, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 b5

Possible board positions

Speculative Line
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 11. a4 bxa4[?] 12. Rb1 Nc6 13. Ba3 Na5 14. Rb5 Nxc4

Votes


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