Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move12

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting CLOSED

  • The Move
    • Qf6 - 17
    • Qe8 - 2
  • Voting
    • Multiple Votes - 16
    • Single Votes - 5

When you vote tonight, vote for both a move, and for how you would like to vote. Also, vote multiple times, indicating your top vote by saying STRONG VOTE instead of just VOTE. If the consensus is for Single Votes, then only STRONG VOTES will be counted.

Because of multiple votes, ties are more than possible. I think we should also rate which one is our favorite move ((1), (2), (3) etc.). Favorites (lower numbers) will break ties. Just a thought. V 15:35, 13 July 2006 (PDT)

  • Agreed, I think if we indicate the tope vote by using '''#1 VOTE''' by ~~~~: Comment I don't think we could have a tie of #1 votes, if we did, I would say we should just not count their #2 or #3 vote in the category its tied with. Example, I vote #1 for Qa3 and #2 for Bb4, and the #1's are tied in both, then my vote for Bb4 wouldn't be counted. mayorcjSR
  • Weighted multivoting works fine if it takes at least two second votes to carry the same weight of one first vote. My personal fav is using powers of two for weighting. If we are doing first second and third then their respective weights should be 4, 2, and 1. -AnonHC
    • disagree -- we have a way to resolve ties, so it's a non-issue in my mind. We should just count votes, if we have a tie, the person updating the page makes the deciding vote. *shrug* It will be between moves that there is strong consensus for because of the multiple voting.
      • The method that was used to resolve the only tie we've had was decided on by 3 or 4 people in some discussion buried on another part of the wiki. It doesn't seem like a very good scheme to me. The preference thing seems too complicated also. I started a section on tie breaking below with a couple of other alternatives. Jeff
        • Considering that those 5 people have both been here since the beginning, AND were responsible for setting all the chess wiki up .. I'd think that they'd have certain 'moderator' status .. preventing things from running loose. ßrigaderant
          • You might think that but what really matters is what the most of participants think or what the site admins decide. Jeff

Multiple Votes

  1. VOTE by mayorcjSR 15:25, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  2. VOTE by voodooboy 21:10, 12 July 2006 (PDT)
  3. VOTE by Kingpatzer 15:27, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : superior solution for multiple cadidate ballets!
  4. VOTE (2) by V 15:47, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : I don't really care for this, but I don't mind.
  5. VOTE by W 16:09, 13 July 2006 (PDT): I'm new to this but I would hate to choose between two great moves only to see some lame move win because the vote was split.
  6. VOTE by Graymon
  7. VOTE by Jeff 16:18, 13 July 2006 (PDT): Like I wouldn't vote for this :-)
  8. VOTE by Reagank 16:27, 13 July 2006 (PDT): Forcing a single choice works against the collborative nature of the wiki
  9. VOTE by Thaddeus 16:59, 13 July 2006 (PDT): add a comment! (No! I will NOT add a comment!)
  10. VOTE by TtT 17:22, 13 July 2006 (PDT): Who likes the little little duckies in the pond?
  11. VOTE by Animegod 17:22, 13 July 2006 (PDT): I'm a new guy too...... Guess that's all i've got.
  12. VOTE by Bairdsy 18:17, 13 July 2006 (PDT): This should stop those hard chargers!!
  13. VOTE by SalMancini I think most of the time I will end up voting for one move. But it will be nice to have the option of multiples since I normally don't play a game with dozens of people trying to make up their collective minds. It si just too bad we did not think of this earlier.
  14. VOTE by JudiciousH 18:23, 13 July 2006 (PDT): This is fine, but ranking is too complicated.
  15. VOTE by PTWhipplebang 19:25, 13 July 2006 (PDT): I'll still try to restrict myself to one vote, but if I'm truly torn, it's nice to have the option.
  16. VOTE by bobbie_macrap at me 20:39, 13 July 2006 (PDT)

Single Votes

  1. VOTE (1) by V 15:46, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : I like single votes.
  2. VOTE by Geedubber 15:59, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : While I actually think the multiple vote solution will result in better moves, it will also piss off people like Inkslave. There is no need to complicate this process and risk the possibility of alienating potential players.
  3. VOTE by Graymon
  4. VOTE We're complicating a system that has worked for us for 10 moves .. why fix what isn't broken? Leave it be (and simple, I'll have to re-read that 'explanation' at least twice to understand it .. and it isn't even a unified suggestion, too many variables. This is a case of 'cake and eating it too' .. vote for the move you think is best, period. If you support others, note it in the discussion and be done with it. ßrigaderant 19:41, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  5. VOTE --Lordsah 19:54, 13 July 2006 (PDT): Jeez. How do you measure relative 'strong' votes against normal votes? Does a move with 2 'strong' votes beat one with 5 normal votes? If you want multiple votes, just count by absolute votes.

Breaking Ties

It doesn't look like it's going to be an issue this round, but we should figure out a real scheme for tie-breaking. Some possibilities:

  • Voter Preferences. There are lots of systems out there which use preferences to break ties. Condorcet works well, but it's pretty complicated. Usually it involves using software to carry out the decision computation.
  • Designated Tie Breaker. Having a designated tie breaker.
  • Edit Race. Having a race to see who can edit the wiki the fastest at vote closing time. Could work.
  • First Top Vote. This involves looking through the edit history of the page to see which of the tied alternatives got to the winning total first.

The designated tie breaker scheme was what happened at the only tie we've had so far. I saw a discussion of it buried in some other part of the wiki but only a few people seemed to be participating in that.

  • I am in favor of simply having the folks who update the board be given the power to cast the tie-breaker. It's simple, it's fast, and it's easy to impliment. The only way we'll have ties is if there are multiple moves around which there's some consensus anyway, so there's really no issue here in my mind. Kingpatzer 09:42, 14 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Yeah, that's the Edit Race solution. It seems like it's pretty much the default if there is no other agreement. W 12:00, 14 July 2006 (PDT)

Information on Voting

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open @7PM EDT and close at MIDNIGHT, 12am EDT, in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).


  • (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here


Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

How to Vote

  • Cut and paste the following to vote - You may change it, but note that if you vote on multiple moves, all your votes are void when they are tallied.
# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 
Be sure to VOTE on which style of VOTING we should use, and VOTE for each move you would be OK with. 
ALSO, indicate your number one choice with STRONG VOTE, if the consesus is that we should only vote once,
then only the STRONG VOTES will be counted!

Discussion on Voting

  • Voting for more than one move was never prohibited AFAICT. Range Voting would be another interesting alternative but that would be a distinct departure from what has gone on before. Jeff
    • Approval voting: Brilliant! Besides, who wants to be the hard charging vote police? I vote for multiple votes. voodooboy 21:10, 12 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Actually .. voting for one move was established around move 1 or move 2 of the game, before you came along Jeff. ßrigaderant 23:42, 12 July 2006 (PDT)
        • If that was an early group decision, then I'll shut up about it. The voting method isn't actually a big deal to me I'm more concerned with the group decision process itself. I looked for this discussion that supposedly took place in move 1 or 2 and I couldn't find it. It looks to me like you are attempting to prohibit multi-voting by fiat. Jeff
        • It seems like we should vote on this rather than having it declared Reagank
          • Agreed. The unfortunate part is my vote will always win because it counts as N + 1, where N is the number of people total that have voted. arc
            • Jokes for nerds, jokes for nerds.
              • It's also brilliant commentary on the nature of voting on how to vote. -arc
          • I also would like to see where it's discussed adn decided. You insist it was, Brigade, and I'm willing to believe you, but I can't find it. Of course, I have the wiki skills of a piece of plywood :) Still, if it hasn't been decided, consensus voting is a better solution for multiple candidate elections. Kingpatzer 15:13, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
            • There's a page in the general wiki describing the voting process .. and every event on the Wiki has been single votes (Fab Friday, Ugly Myspace, German Kid, etc.) it's been an established standard .. why is the (already complicated, chasing people off) chess game making it more complicated?


Current Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last Move: 12. Nc6 ...

Contents



Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigaderant

  • Esmaul: I think we should consider the possiblity that Ze is going to move back Ne5 at some point after protecting e5 with an f4 move. This would force us to Nxe5 lest risk him forking our Queen and Rook. He would then probably respond with nxe5, again forcing us to move our Queen. Maybe I'm just inexperienced in chess, but it doesn't seem good that he forced our queen to move once, it seems to mean he is in control of the game for now.
  • Argh! Fabulosos! Did we discuss this situation as a possible response to our last move? Jes5199 11:32, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
    • nope. Why? Well, cause it's a far less than optimal move for Ze. There are multiple good responses here, all of which allow us to NOT lose the pawn that Ze's correct move would have won for him. Kingpatzer 12:23, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Actually .. it's not 'less than optimal' .. he makes us respond to him, and we really can't. He's making us dance (and testing us .. see Qe5 thread for how we could potentially lose a pawn because of THIS move) and he owns tempo that we gave to him, and can't take back yet. ßrigaderant
        • No, it is less than optimal. He could have been up a solid center pawn. Now he is not going to have that chance. The trade of a tempo for a pawn is not worth it to him at this stage of the game. It's a ? move on his part. Kingpatzer 14:22, 13 July 2006 (PDT)

So we cant stop the knight from taking the queen, so we must move the queen (or offer her as a sacrifice to appease the league of awesomeness). We can move her along that back row, or along the h4-d8 diagonal. Two of the possible seven positions are equal to sacrificing the queen. The five possible positions that dont involve giving the queen away are c8,e8,f6,g5,h4. Those are our choices, fabulosos. We need to be acting, not just responding. If he is going to invest two moves to take our bishop, what are we going to to between now and then to make the most of it? -AnonHC

c8 also sacrifices the queen.--Neal 13:08, 13 July 2006 (PDT)

  • Am I blind? I can't see how that is true Jes5199 13:25, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Ze moves Ne7 and forks check and our queen. -arc

Is Ze's next move c4xd5 (assuming we move our queen). I'm worse than a bad player, but that's what I expected his last move to be. --Neal 12:55, 13 July 2006 (PDT)


Suggested Move Summary

Just a note, we need a move that does two things, saves our queen, and then look at what might happen if ze moved Nb4 on his next move, gasp, our bishop would be threatened, well, the only save move then would be to retreat it back to b7 or b8. Hmm... Danger, Danger Will Robinson! mayorcjSR

  • can take the pawn on c4 now as the exchange will favor black at this point Kingpatzer 12:58, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Wouldn't be exposed to this threat had we moved Bb7 instead of Bb6 .. funny how Ze's making 'bad' moves that are causing us to end up in worse potential positions isn't it? ßrigaderant
      • We're in a far better situation than if Bb7 had been played instaed of Ba6, Brigade. And this "threat" is hardly something to be worried about. This "threat" is a counter-blunder to Nd7 which allowed the line leading to a forced loss of material in the first place. This "threat" is GOOD for us. Kingpatzer 14:26, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
        • I'm not seeing it, Kingpatzer, but I'm admittedly a chess novice. Can you explain why you think it's good for us instead of bad? -christian 16:49, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
          • by playing the move Nd7 we limited the tree of possible response so that it included a branch that would lead to the loss of material for us if white had choosen the right response. it was entirely in white's hands, we would lose a pawn and could do nothing about it. But white didn't choose the right response, instead we've gone down a path where we can make a choice that re-establishes equillibrium. Thus, the fact that we're facing this threat (which is easily dealth with) instead of some other threat, is a good thing. Since the other guy gets to make moves too, the only way you aren't facing SOME threat on the chessboard is if the game is already over. Kingpatzer 18:09, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
            • Fair enough, but isn't the point of chess that there isn't neccesarily a "right" and "wrong" move? Or am I just a novice who doesn't understand basic principles? -christian 19:01, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
              • There are certainly moves that are better and worse, and in some positions there are moves that are clearly superior to everything else or clearly worse than others. Often, though, to see that, you have to look several moves down the tree. It's not the position at hand that is the issue, but what will be the worst possible outcome (assuming you play the best move available to you each turn) three, four, five or more moves down the road. Really good chess players don't just look at the position in front of them and decide if it looks good or not, they think about what the board will look like several moves ahead and judge the value of a move on the basis of what the move will do in a worst reasonable case. What you want to do is for each move think what your oponents best possible response is, and what your best possible response to his move is, etc. Then you want to look at his second best choice, and your best response. If your oponent can make a choice that forces you into an inferior position, the move is bad for you. Kingpatzer 19:22, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
                • Gotcha. Makes sense now. Thanks for the crash course. :) -christian 10:00, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 12. Nc6 Qf6
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc6 Qe8
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc6 Qg5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc6 Qh4















Qe8


Suggested Move: UPDATE THIS
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qe8


  • I didn't suggest it .. but I like it better than moving our queen out. If we stick her out and committing her to one side of the board or another .. this maintains our maneuverability, AND we have a potential double attack against his Knight (any move by our Knight automagically is a 'discovered attack' against his unprotected Knight .. I can't see any follow-up moves that he can make that will jeapordise our position. It's more subtle defensive move that MAY have an offensive advantage later in the game. ßrigaderant
For example: If ze moves g5 on his NEXT move, we could Nf6, threatening BOTH his knight (with our Queen) and his g4 pawn (with our knight move that uncovered our queen) .. think of it as the opposite of a pin (from earlier in the game) .. now bear in mind that that was JUST AN EXAMPLE .. it doesn't win anything (Ne5 covers g5 and retreats his knight safely) .. but I was giving it as an example of its potential for those non-chess afficianados.
  • One other note: If Ze moves Qa4 to threaten our knight, we have to move it or lose it (our queen can't cover our knight from h4, for example) .. this risk is irrelevant, as our queen is still covering our knight from this position. ßrigaderant
    • Brigade you're missing some very basic tactics. In this line 12. .. Qe8 13. Qa4 Nb8 and white is going down at least a piece. This move is a perfectly safe move for black. However, Qf6 has more offensive potential and better takes advantage of the pluses in our position. It's ok to support Qf6 Brigade, I didn't submit it, someone else did :)Kingpatzer 15:25, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Here's a potential line (before the criticisms start): 12. .. Qh5, 13. Qa4 Bb2 14. Nxa2 Rxa2 15. Qxd7 wins a pawn clean. Only way to avoid this line is Bc8 (completely retreating our Bishop to cover our Knight) or Qe8 right now. Our Bishop is unprotected right now, leaving another piece unprotected is only inviting disaster. ßrigaderant
      • Huh? Was the board flipped when you were writing that line? I can't follow it. Please help. 64.7.149.152
        • I think he meant 12. .. Qh5 13. Qa4 Bb7 14. Nxa7 Rxa7 15. Qxd7. Thebigjc 14:46, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
          • However, this line assumes that Rxa7 is a good move, but it isn't, as 14. Nxa7 pins his Knight against his Queen, and puts it on an edge. Nxa7 is a good sacrifice for us.Thebigjc 14:46, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
          • Nxa7 is a GREAT move for white. Because he WINS A PAWN CLEAN! It's NOT a sacrifice if he captures OUR knight with our 'pinned' queen .. it's not a sacrifice, it's an exchange that wins a pawn. Count the captures people. We're forced to move our bishop, he TRADES his knight for a KNIGHT and PAWN. It's a simple concept ... ßrigaderant
            • Can someone explain to me why they think that 12. ... Qe8 13. Qa4 Bb7 is bad for black besides it being a complete and total blunder?! 12. .. Qe8 13. Qa4 Nb8 and what does white do to save his game? 14. Qc2 Qxc6, 14. Qd1 Qxc6, 14. f3 Nd6 just prolongs the suffering, 14. Ne7+ Qxe7 White is utterly lost after Nb8 in this line Kingpatzer 14:54, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
              • You're just showing how bad Qa4 is for white. As an answer to Qe8, it is a huge blunder. Qe8 is almost purely defensive, where Qf6 puts some forward pressure. The game is likely over if White answers Qa4, regardless of which of the two good moves we take here. 24.43.227.119 15:45, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
                • I don't disagree. But the discussion above is about how Qa4 is why this is bad. Kingpatzer 18:25, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
                  • WHY the discussion is WHY is Qa4 bad? BECAUSE OUR QUEEN IS ON e8! .. If we move our queen out, Qa4 is a GREAT move for black (if we move out on the diagonal), and he'll take us apart.
  1. VOTE by Thaddeus 17:04, 13 July 2006 (PDT): I'm feeling defensive :(
  2. VOTE by ßrigaderant 19:57, 13 July 2006 (PDT) .. although it appears that no one is following the logical progression of the threat this protects us from ...


Qf6


Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 12. Nc6 Qf6


Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Likely Result: 12. .. Qf6 13. f3 Nd6 14. e4 dxe4 15. fxe4



Just throwing it out there for group dissection. Exerts pressure on diagonal, covers e7(13. Ne7+....) and saves Queen for now.

  • appears best of possible responses for black. White can try things like Qa4, f3, Rd1, Be2 etc., but all in all, he's tossed away a great oportunity. This is a simple, natural developing move that keeps the focus of the game on those center pawns, incrases the defense of our f pawn, and simply doesn't have a good response for white. Best continuation for white is probably something like 13. f3 Nd6 14. e4. I like this move. Kingpatzer 12:30, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
    • OK, that's all well and good, but i think this is a fine position for white to be in. What if his next move was Nb4? Then we respond with one of 2 things, I would think. Either Bb7 or Bc8, OR d5xc4. If we chose the latter, then Ze would probably respond by Nb4xb6. We would then play c4xd3. He could then capture d3 with his queen, leaving our knight threatened. Our knight would be forced to retreat to g5. Anyway, just a thought. mayorcjSR 12:44, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
      • if he's goign to actually go after the bishop with Nb4 I see it going as: 13. Nb4 Bxc4 14. Bxc4 dxc4 15. Qa4 Qf7 and now black is in a very good position indeed! we can play e5 next move and take care of that e-pawn, protect the advanced c pawn, and in general we're ready to rumble. In the meanwhile, white's knight is kind of out of place, he's lost his good bishop and his bad bishop isn't going anywhere soon! Kingpatzer 12:52, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I think this is a balanced move that puts our queen at the business end of our strategy. If he wants to put his knight on the edge opposite our king (effectively removing it from play), and allow us to develop a very strong center-board position thats fine. I would certainly trade a pawn for a pawn and a bishop. This isnt necessarily throwing the queen to the wolves, but it is keeping focussed on the idea that we want to put him in checkmate. -AnonHC
    • way to early to be thinking about checkmate. But all our moves up to now have focused on equalizing development and restraining white's center, and this does continue both of those themes very nicely. Kingpatzer 12:54, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Potentially loses (at least) a pawn, or forced retreat of our bishop. See Qe5 discussion above. ßrigaderant
    • sorry, but that's just simply not correct. I'd like to follow your line above, but it's non-sensical. We can't move our Bishop to b2 EVER let alone this move (it's the wrong color square!) I'm trying to figure out what move you're talking about but I can't see it. However our respons to 13. Qa4 is 13. .. Nec5 where black is clearly superior if not flat out winning! Kingpatzer 14:33, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I think he means Bb7, which is a strong response to Qa4, putting Ze on the defensive. Thebigjc 14:50, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
        • Maybe. But in this line Bb7 in response to Qa4 is a blunder. Nec5 breaks the game open for black in a major way Kingpatzer 15:04, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
          • Really? Nec5 dxc5 we lose a piece flat. How's that work out? 13. Qa4 Kec5 14. dxc5 and we still contend with the threat of Qxb6 (yes, i miswrote it earlier .. 4 hours sleep and 6 hours of Summer II + raising small child ..) .. this move will be a blunder .. and your lines that are 'flat out winning' are handing Ze a piece. ßrigaderant 19:48, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
            • Set it up in the arena, Brigade, and I'll show you that it's losing for white. It takes a little tactical vision to see it, but it's there. Kingpatzer 06:01, 14 July 2006 (PDT)
        • Ndc5 as well. some very interesting outcomes Geedubber 16:00, 13 July 2006 (PDT)***** 13. Qa4 Ndc5 14. dxc5 Nxc5 15. Qc2 Dxd3 16. Qc3 Bxc4 and his Queen is pinned to his rook. If you continue down this line of reasoning we will have traded 2 knights and a bishop for 3 pawns, a bishop, and a rook.
    • Our bishop wouldn't retreat. If he pressures with 13. Nb4, we take the exchange at Bxc4. Thebigjc 14:18, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Prevents our Knight from moving to f6 for retreat .. only alternative is moving it back to b8, blocking our rook (and wasting our move trying to develop our knight in the first place) .. ßrigaderant
    • Our Knight doesn't need to retreat to f6. If he pressures with 13. Ne5, we'll take the favorible exchange on the Knights (13. ... Nxe5) and control the center Thebigjc 14:18, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Definitely our best move. We need to move the queen out of the way and this not only exerts more pressure that we seriously need on the center, but assures at least an even game. Brigade, we can always use d6 as retreat if the white f pawn is pushed. This will also put pressure on the c pawn. Everything about this move rocks. V 14:38, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Yes, we can Nd5 .. but what happens when he follows f3 with e4? It's a liability and it'll make our queen a target .. mark my words. (oh .. lookit the picture .. our pawn is pinned to our queen .. and after he forks our Queen/Knight .. yea .. great move Patz. ßrigaderant 20:07, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  • My money is on 13. Qa4... threatening our bishop at a6. Whatever it is, we'll deal with it. One move can't accomplish everything. We just have to take the best of what comes whether we like the move or not. I have been on the losing side in a few of these votes so far, but I still try to help out on the next move. salmancini

Votes

  1. VOTE by sepllcehck: I worship the devil!!!
  2. VOTE by V: Only one vote for me. This move rocks!
  3. STRONG VOTE by Thebigjc 16:28, 13 July 2006 (PDT): Only one vote for me too. There's no question here.
  4. VOTE by Geedubber 16:31, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : This move will result in the most fun.
  5. STRONG VOTE by mayorcjSR 16:47, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : Looks pretty groovy to me.
  6. STRONG VOTE by TtT 17:17, 13 July 2006 (PDT): My initial gut feeling went out to this one and it still does after analysis
  7. HIDEOUSLY STRONG VOTE by Wophugus 17:27, 13 July 2006 (PDT): Other moves too defensive for my taste
  8. VOTE by Jeff: Oh the irony of it all. There's only one move I want to vote for this time.
  9. VOTE by Kingpatzer 18:13, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : simply the best move by a big margin. everything else is too passive
  10. STRONG VOTE by Animegod 18:13, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : Nice. Let teh big lady rule with fear and intimidation.
  11. VOTE by JudiciousH 18:31, 13 July 2006 (PDT): Apparently it's good to threaten the spaces in the middle?
  12. VOTE by SalMancini First time in a while no one has talked me out of a move that I suggested. Qh4 seems pretty sexy too. Maybe we can do that when the time is right.
  13. STRONG VOTE by Bairdsy 18:56, 13 July 2006 (PDT) : Why are we even arguing over whether this is good? It's bloody obvious is what it is.
  14. VOTE by christian 19:03, 13 July 2006 (PDT): This seems like the strongest move. Keeps our options open.
  15. STRONG VOTE by PTWhipplebang 19:27, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
  16. VOTE by decoder
  17. VOTE by bobbie_macrap at me

Qg5


Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc6 Qg5
  • Leaves our Knight unprotected (see Qe5 lines above) and vulnerable to f4 pawn push (chases our queen out and we've wasted a move while Ze takes more of the center over) ßrigaderant
    • I thought that the move in question was Qh4? Jes ter23
      • Qh4 makes us even more vulerably to a pawn push (13. g3) Thebigjc 14:24, 13 July 2006 (PDT)


  • what is the response to f4? Speed8ump 14:59, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Probably Qf6, which we should be making here anyways. This move just wastes a move and lets White get an extra pawn out. Thebigjc 15:03, 13 July 2006 (PDT)


Qh4


Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc6 Qg4

This goes back to the prior move suggestion of Rf6. If we are able to get the rook to h6 we'll have filed queen and rook on h. ze could defend against this with his pawns, but it does put strong pressure on him and may sway him from what he's doing queenside.

  • Qh4 makes us even more vulerably to a pawn push (13. g3). We would have to retreat, or sit in the pawn hole. Either is just a waste of a move and locks our queen in. Thebigjc 14:25, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
        • But then we push forward with the f pawn until it's captured, then advance the f rook and back it up with the a rook. No matter what ze does to attack us, were ahead and he's on defense.
  • I vote AGAINST this. This is asking for trouble. AnonHC


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