Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move15

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting CLOSED: e5

100% consensus.

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open at Tuesday 7PM EDT and close at Wednesday 12AM EDT(Tuesday night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).


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# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 
  • You may vote for many moves as you like, but only one vote per move.
  • When voting closes, the move with the most votes wins.
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Strategy Discussion

Current board position (flip me)
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last move: Be2

Contents

Quoted From Move 14 Discussion of this move

  • 14. .. dxc4 15. Be2 e5 and white has choices of Be3, Qa2, exf5 everything else is clearly worse
  • 14. .. dxc4 15. Be2 fxe4 16. fxe4 is at best equal for black but is frankly kind of scary. Our queen is under attack, the open f-file will be owned by white, and it looks like black goes defensive. I think we'd avoid this line, so ...
  • 14. .. dxc4 15. Be2 Bb7 16. e5 and white appears quite solid to me. After we move the queen white will take the knight iwth the pawn, we'll take the knight with the bishop, and white will take our c pawn giving white an advanced passed pawn and a temporary material advantage. Again, I think we would do well to avoid this line
  • 14. .. dxc4 15. .. Bb5 16. e5 leads to similar lines as Bb7

thus there's only really 15. to look at further

  • 14. dxc4 15. Be2 e5 16. Be3 and black has a few choices Bb7, Qe6, exd4, fxe4

to avoid making this too long I'm just going to look at one choice, Bb7

  • 14. .. dxc4 15. Be2 e5 16. Be3 Bb7 17. Nxe5 Nxe5 and NOW black's bishop is exherting powerfull pressure on white's center, while white's bishop is doing nothing meaningful and doesn't look like it will for some time.
  • conclusion: this is a great line for black! Kingpatzer 12:09, 17 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I don't mind being quoted -- but can whoever quoted me sign their message? I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to monopolize the debate. I'm vocal enough on my own :) Kingpatzer 11:37, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
  • That was me. New to Wiki and was mostly trying to make sure it didn't look like ass. SaintPeter 12:14, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Kingpatzer is losing the game for you guys following him .. he forgot 16. Qa4 ..
    • Hi Brigade, how you doing?! Kingpatzer 06:42, 19 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 1) Don't be a coward and say something like that without signing. If you think Kingpatzer or everyone is wrong, then go argue with him/them in the discussion section. Clearly he is running the show right now, but if all you do is snipe in comments without actually helping the discussion along or suggesting better comments you are being useless. You didn't even vote for an alternative move. 2) Bb5 on our part after Qa4 gives us his knight. - arc
      • Unless he doesn't mind trading his queen for our bishop. PTWhipplebang 06:22, 19 July 2006 (PDT)
        • Yeah, then we'd be screwed!. - arc
          • Actually, your anonymous contributor happens to be right. 16. Qa4 Bb5 17. Qb4 Bxc6 18. Qxc4+ ends up trading your bishop for his knight. Wish they were around when I was debating positions. I'm going back to lurking now, and I don't bother to read the strategy page anymore, so don't accuse me of things on the shoutbox. I'm too busy studying for classes lately. Thanks. ├črigaderant 11:19, 19 July 2006 (PDT)
            • Wow, I just looked at it again .. after Qxc6 (in my quick little thought a second ago) depending on how you answer the check you're either losing a knight or a rook .. ugly position you guys got yourselves into. If anyone would like to know how, feel free to post a comment on my user page. ├črigaderant 11:23, 19 July 2006 (PDT)


Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: e5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Bb5





e5


Suggested Move: e5
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: e5
  • I believe this was the course of action we planned upon after 15. Be2. PTWhipplebang 10:58, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
  • What do we do when dxe5? 64.236.243.16
    • Nxe5? PTWhipplebang 11:24, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 16. dxe5 Nxe5 17.
  • 17. Nb4 Bb7 18. Nd5 Bxd5 19. exd5 Rae8 and black is very well positioned and up a pawn
  • 17. Bg5 Qxg5 18. f4 Qh4 19. fxe5 Qxe4 20. Qxer Nxe4 and black is up 2 pawns
  • 17. Nxe5 Qxe5 18. exf5 Qxf5 19. Qxf5 and black is up a pawn
  • There is no path here that doesn't lose white at least one pawn if dxe5. Kingpatzer11:29, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Possible knight exchange - 15. dxe5 Nxe5 16. Nxe5 Qxe5 - Puts the queen in position to hit h2 if we had some cover. SaintPeter 11:31, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I let Fritz think about it for several hours and this is what it came up with: 16. exf5 (16. d5 Bb7
  • (moved to the magic dumpster if anyone wants to look at it. btw sign your contributions) Kingpatzer 07:17, 19 July 2006 (PDT)
    • come on guys, don't resort to computers. We can do this using our own brains! Kingpatzer 07:08, 19 July 2006 (PDT)
  • White's only responses that do not result in clearly losing positions to 15. e5 are Be3, Qa2, exf5 and maybe d5 or f4 (though I think f4 is a '?' move) of these I think 16. Be3 is most solid for white Kingpatzer 11:33, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • okay if 16. Be3.. then Bb7 17. dxe5 and then we swap knights? Geedubber 11:36, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
      • that's how I see it Geedubber, yes. Kingpatzer 11:40, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Just for fun's sake: 16. f4? Nxe4 (threatening Qxc6) 17. Nb4 exd4 and we are up two more pawns (and threatening 18. dxe4 Qxe4+) Kidnapped


  • What after 16. Nxe5? NxN 17. dxe5 does not look too good--Oeny
    • Why not 17. ... Qxe5? PTWhipplebang 11:45, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • true, true; ouch --Oeny
    • 16. Nxe5 NxN 17. dxe5 Qxe5 and black is fine. if 18. exf5 then Qxf5 is to our favor Kingpatzer 11:51, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
  • What if he plays 16. d5? I think it is his strongest move.Cubzas
    • 16. d5 Bb5 17. exf5 Nc5 and white has real problems. Our bishop will inflitrate with Ba4 and our knight can land on either b3 or d3 at any time. eg: 18. Be3 Ba4 19. Qa2 Nd3 and white is getting rolled. Kingpatzer 12:52, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Indeed. --Cubzas 13:23, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Consider this: After 15... e5, white will attack our bishop with 16. Nb4. I see no reason why he would give himself doubled pawns again with 16.dxe4, especially when that pawn is protected by our knight and queen. it opens another file (b and d), and white would also lose in the exchange: a knight and pawn for a knight and two pawns (14...dxc4 15. Be2 e5 16. dxe5 Nxe5 17. NxN QxN), and his position is weakened. there are other possibilities with 16.dxe4, but I simply don't see white benefitting from them.
  • Instead, a likely sequence will be 15... e5 16. Nb4 exd4 17. e5 Nxe5 18. Nxa6 d3 19. Bxd3 cxd3 ... Also, refer to the paragraph under "The End is Near" on the main page of "Fabuloso Chess" MJTisMe23 13:14, 18 July 2006 (PDT)MJTisMe23
    • My take is that 16. ... exd4 is a blunder. Now that our black pawn is on c4, I would move the bishop to Bb7 instead and swap pieces if he doesn't move the knight. V
    • 15. .. e5 16. Nb4 looks pretty good for white, until you dig deeper.
16. Nb4 Bb7 and now what? either dxe5 or exf5 fails spectacularly (e.g. 17. dxe5 Qxe5 18. exf5 a5 18. Na2 Rxf5 is one possibility)
17. Qa2 looks like a plan to attack the c pawn, but 17. .. b5 shows who the boss really is
I see no reason to believe that 16. Nb4 Bb7 presents a threat to black, am I missing a line here? Kingpatzer 14:17, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
  • 16...Bb7 is acceptable, because it protects Nd4 attacking our queen (I'm not sure if he would make that move though), but why not Bb5, which allows a5, blocks a4, prevents Qa4, continues to protect c4, while trapping Be2? That being said, I'm still partial to 16...exd4 12.217.38.217 16:02, 18 July 2006 (PDT)MJTisMe23
    • 16. .. Bb5 is a mistake in this line: 17. a4 and how do we save the bishop? he doesn't even have to take it right away, he can then play exd5 and tear us up the middle and pick off the bishop after chasing the queen around a bit . .. Kingpatzer 18:04, 18 July 2006 (PDT)

Voting

  1. VOTE by PTWhipplebang 14:31, 18 July 2006 (PDT): I'm going to be away from a computer for the rest of the day...
  2. VOTE by Jeff 14:36, 18 July 2006 (PDT): The game just plays itself :-)
  3. VOTE by 874 14:46, 18 July 2006 (PDT): The voices tell me we should do this move.
  4. VOTE by Animegod 17:35, 18 July 2006 (PDT): <sigh> For lack of a better move. =/
  5. VOTE by JudiciousH 16:49, 18 July 2006 (PDT): As planned.
  6. VOTE by Kingpatzer 16:52, 18 July 2006 (PDT) : strongest reply I think
  7. VOTE by Geedubber 17:54, 18 July 2006 (PDT) : Prevents him from going e5 and forking our N & Q
  8. VOTE by Kidnapped 18:05, 18 July 2006 (PDT): Long-time lurker, first-time voter!
  9. VOTE by 64.14.248.62 18:12, 18 July 2006 (PDT): This wiki is getting me interested in chess
  10. VOTE by Cubzas 18:30, 18 July 2006 (PDT)--: the best move we have
  11. VOTE by bobbie_macrap at me 18:31, 18 July 2006 (PDT): does all this unanimity mean we're winning?
  12. VOTE by MJTisMe23MJTisMe23 18:57, 18 July 2006 (PDT): I think it means our mobility is limited right now, but that should change.
  13. VOTE by Sal Mancini The plan is working. one of us! one of us! one of us!
  14. VOTE by SaintPeter 19:49, 18 July 2006 (PDT) Ph34r our mighty Chess Authority!
  15. VOTE by mayorcjSR 20:46, 18 July 2006 (PDT): Why? Because we have to. There is no other choice. Just like in Soviet Russia.


fxe4

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4
  • after 16. fxe4 Qh4 17. e5 Qe4 I think it's a pretty even game. I suspect that e5 is stronger, but this certainly looks playable Kingpatzer 11:59, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I don't like how White's Queen and Bishops are being set free afterwards, i.e. having more options to move. --Oeny
    • I agree that it's a sharper game (which is one big reason I prefere e5) but I don't think it's objectively bad. Kingpatzer 12:21, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • we either swap queens or swap knights Geedubber 12:37, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 17. e5 Bb7? Geedubber 12:37, 18 July 2006 (PDT)


Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move:16. fxe4 Qh4 17. e5 Qe4

Bb5


Suggested Move: Bb5
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Bb5
  • Pressures White's Knight, and forces him to respond to our attack. His only safe move after is Nb4 allowing us to advance a pawn, but most importantly it forces Ze to respond to us Tubaguy89 16:58, 18 July 2006 (EDT)
    • right now we have a 1 pawn advantage, after this move we lose it as this whole sequence is more or less forced 15. .. Bb6 16. e5 Qf7 (forced) 17. exd6 Bxc6 18. dxc7 Nf6 19. Bxc4 Bd5 20. Bb3 Qxc7 21. c4!! Kingpatzer 14:22, 18 July 2006 (PDT)







fxe4

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4
  • after 16. fxe4 Qh4 17. e5 Qe4 I think it's a pretty even game. I suspect that e5 is stronger, but this certainly looks playable Kingpatzer 11:59, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I don't like how White's Queen and Bishops are being set free afterwards, i.e. having more options to move. --Oeny
    • I agree that it's a sharper game (which is one big reason I prefere e5) but I don't think it's objectively bad. Kingpatzer 12:21, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • we either swap queens or swap knights Geedubber 12:37, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 17. e5 Bb7? Geedubber 12:37, 18 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I'm not a big fan because after the pawn swaps, look at the two bishops and the queen. They're all gunning down our kingside and the white knight is in checking position with only the queen defending that spot. I don't have anything concrete against this move, but it doesn't jive with me. V 13:37, 18 July 2006 (PDT)


Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move:16. fxe4 Qh4 17. e5 Qe4









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