Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move17

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting CLOSED Bb7

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open at Saturday 7PM EDT and close at Monday 12AM EDT(Sunday night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).


  • (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here


Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

Voting Instructions

Cut and paste the following to vote

# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 
  • You may vote for many moves as you like, but only one vote per move.
  • When voting closes, the move with the most votes wins.
  • If there is a tie, whoever tallies the votes breaks the tie.


Consensus Question

The "Consensus" for yesterday's vote is listed at 55%. However, there were only 16 unique voters who cast 20 votes. Shouldn't the "consensus" percentage be 69% (11 votes for the move prior to the deadline / 16 unique voters) rather than 55%. Kingpatzer 12:57, 21 July 2006 (PDT)

I agree and have updated it.-874 13:08, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • There were 20 votes cast (some duplicate but that's allowed, according to the rules) and 11 were for Nb8...hence, 55%. That's the percentage of the votes, not the voters, that it received. Snark 14:16, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Granted, but isn't the percentage of voters that support a move a better measure of the consensus of support for that move? If A, B, C all vote a given move and A also votes for another, that's still 100% consensus for the given move. Why would you call that 75% consensus? -874 14:21, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I think 100% means "everyone agrees that's the best move," not "most people think it's one of several playable options". In your example, A apparently can't decide. That has to be somehow different than 100% consensus. Snark 14:28, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Not to belabor the point, but if, as in your example, A, B, and C each voted for the same two moves (nobody could make up their minds), then you'd have that as 100% consensus. I just think that misuses the term. That has to be 50% consensus. Okay, I'm done now. Snark 14:51, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
        • It doesn't have to be 50% consensus, because in that example A, B, and C are all agreed that either move is good. That's 100% consensus because everyone would be happy with either choice. He who says zonk 22:21, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
        • Snark, it's not "percentage of votes recieved," it's "percentage of voters who agree to the move." After all, we're reporting consensus, not margin of victory. Suppose there are 3 moves to choose from. There are 10 voters. Each voter votes for the 1st move, and 5 vote for move 2 and the other 5 vote for move 3. Of the people voting, 100% of the people support the first move, and 50% support each of the other moves. There is 100% consensus on the move choice since every voter agreed to support move 1. Kingpatzer 15:00, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
          • If that is the case then move 13 should be 100% Geedubber 16:07, 21 July 2006 (PDT)

Strategy Discussion

Current board position (flip me)
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last move: a4

Contents



Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Bb7
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Bb5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: f4
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: g6
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Rf7
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qg6
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4




Bb7


Suggested Move: Bb7
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 17. Nb4 Bb7
  • Made with the intent of playing a5 to torment the knight further, as well as getting on the e4 pawn. Simple, easy chess. Kingpatzer 12:53, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Some ways it could go down 18. a4 a5 19. Na2 or 18. Qa2 a5 19. Nc2 he'd probably pick the latter cause putting your knight on a edge is a bad idea Geedubber 13:12, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
      • "A knight on the rim is dim" - old saying
  • Bring the Bishop to saftey; I like this better than Bb5 because then after 17. a4 we would have to move the bishop again. --Oeny 12:55, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I like this move, and it has been discussed probably for the last 4 moves or so ad nauseum. It puts the bishop on the center line and allows for a counter if ze wants to leave his knight there via 4. - arc
  • This is the best move. It saves the B (which will be more valuable later in the game) and prepares pawn moves like b5 (to protect the c4 pawn), a5 (to kick the knight), c6 (to get rid of Ze's advanced pawn), and b4 (to exploit our extra pawn). Snark 14:06, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I think this move is best, but I'm a little concerned about what happens after 18. Bxc4 Our knight at d6 is already overburdened with e4 and f5. MJTisMe23 15:36, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • we take his bishop with our knight and thank him for the free piece :) Kingpatzer 15:44, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • 18. Bxc4 Nxc4? looks like trouble, what would be our next move? MJTisMe23 15:52, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Who said anything about Bxc4? It's a possible move, but hardly a foredrawn conclusion. I'd actually recommend against it seeing as Bb7 allows for other opportunities noted above. hobophobe 17:22, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • MJTisMe23 is concerned about it. But I don't see why. After 18. Bxc4?? Nxc4 19. what? White, not black is the one in trouble here. What does he do? Qd3 is met by b5 just fine. if he tries a pawn capture he just dies in a heartbeat. There's no threat here for white. He's simply down a piece for nothing. Kingpatzer 18:59, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Why didn't we do this in the first place. Now we're three moves behind where we should have been. V 21:30, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I can see why someone might think that. However, the chess board is a dynamic state machine. It is not the case that had we moved Bb7 when we first moved the bishop that Ze would have made the same moves that he did. The game isn't about tempo, though tempo is part of the game. The game is about collecting and exploiting small advantages. Our move of Ba6 generated a small advantge because it froze a center pawn, and led to us winning material (we're a pawn up, after all!!) Now that the bishop has done it's job, it can be repositioned to some other task (in this case, pressuring another center pawn!). It's not a race to make a certain number of moves, it's a race to dominate square on the board. In that race we aren't behind, we're winning. Kingpatzer 03:31, 22 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Well, it's all in the past. But I disagree. While true that we have two pieces attacking that spot now (which would have led to being a pawn up hadn't the knight moved), we cannot continue to exert this pressure continuously unless we exchange knights. Otherwise, we indeed wasted a move. There's no two ways about it. Unless the plan is to exchange knights (barring any surprises) or forcing the white knight to yet another location, then we have wasted a move because this plan is whithout merit. Beyond the obvious logic, we are now behind in development and have wasted two moves on the knight (and another one to move it back out) and it blocks the rook. V 12:37, 23 July 2006 (PDT)
        • Don't forget that we forced him to move Be2 -essentially losing a tempo- and we are about to chase his knight back to the second rank. I don't like the rooks being unconnected either, but I assume we will be playing Nd7(again) in the next 5 moves or so. Geedubber
        • I do not agree that we are behind in development at all. We have 2 pieces on home squares and are castled. White has 2 pieces on home squares and is castled. Our development is exactly equal. Moreover, the pieces we have developed are working together far better than white's are. An ideal continuation from my perspective would be something like 18. Qa2 (with the intent of hitting on the c-pawn) a5 (creating more problems with white's piece placement) 19. Nc2 (essentially forced) when 19. .. fxe4 (time to open up the center now that our bishop is properly situated and white's pieces are lacking coordination) 20. fxe4 Qh4 21. RxR KxR and white is going to have to lose that f-pawn, and which point his entire game will collapse, he'll be able to fight on but unless we screw up, we'll have it made. Something like 22. Bd2 Qxe4 23. Bf3 Qd3 puts us solidly in control of the entire board, and most likely white will lose the e pawn as well. Kingpatzer 21:07, 23 July 2006 (PDT)

VOTING

  1. VOTE by Jeff 15:22, 21 July 2006 (PDT): Voting early in case I don't spend the entire weekend on the internet :-)
  2. VOTE by Otis 15:54, 21 July 2006 (PDT): ^^^^Ditto!
  3. VOTE by PTWhipplebang 16:32, 21 July 2006 (PDT): I'm moving this weekend. My computer will be in a box.
  4. VOTE by Wophugus: Helping the GF pack all weekend, voting early.
  5. VOTE by 24.51.233.81 17:34, 21 July 2006 (PDT): like it, Solid!
  6. VOTE by Snark 18:34, 21 July 2006 (PDT): The way to go
  7. VOTE by Kingpatzer 19:00, 21 July 2006 (PDT) : simple and strong, the hallmark of great chess moves!
  8. VOTE by SalMancini I forget who said it first but I will repeat,"Mmmm...fianchettoey..."
  9. VOTE by Geedubber
  10. VOTE by V 21:30, 21 July 2006 (PDT) : DUH!
  11. VOTE by 06:23, 22 July 2006 (PDT): This is the move to make.
  12. VOTE by wertible: Solid move, simple too.
  13. VOTE by Theroachman 20:53, 22 July 2006 (PDT) I like this move :)
  14. VOTE by SaintPeter 23:24, 22 July 2006 (PDT)

Bb5


Suggested Move: Bb5
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 17. Nb4 bb5
  • if I were playing white, I'd respond to this with a4. I don't think it's objectively bad, but Bb7 seems more accurate.




f4


Suggested Move: f4
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 17. Nb4 f4

Worth a look Geedubber 13:00, 21 July 2006 (PDT)

  • I rather like this one. It limits his black bishop and brings the fight a little closer to his king. mick129 13:34, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Ze would probably exchange Knight for Bishop; If we have a chance to attack the Knight with a pawn (16. Nb4 Bb7 or Bb5 17. ?? a5) I think that would be better than the Knight for Bishop exchange --Oeny 13:38, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I like the pawn structure you're creating but this is not good after 18. Nxa6 Nxa6 19. Qa2 b5 20. a4 and we lose our pawn. Snark 14:01, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • ugh, bad pawn structure! Pawns who can't move are called "targets" :) Kingpatzer 15:01, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
    • yes, precisely, but in this positions White has more weaknesses and Black can easily work on the g- and h-files. But I still don't think it's the best move. Snark 18:28, 21 July 2006 (PDT)


g6


Suggested Move: g6
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 17. Nb4 g6
  • If we're willing to trade bishop for knight, we could take this chance to improve our pawn structure. -874 13:19, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • That weakens your pawn structure, it doesn't strengthen it.
  • agreed. This move gives white lines of attack to exploit but does nothing to improve our game. Kingpatzer 15:03, 21 July 2006 (PDT)


Rf7


Suggested Move: Rf7
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 17. Nb4 Rf7
  • A few moves ago, someone mentioned getting our queen and rooks in line would be an advantage; this would give us that opportunity after we trade bishop for knight. -874 13:19, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Fails after 18. Nxa6 Nxa6 19. Qa2 b5 20. a4


Qg6


Suggested Move: Qg6
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 17. Nb4 Qg6

Don't have time to add it properly but: Since our bishop is already defended, we can really leave it to Ze if he wants to accept a trade - with the board constricted knights are more valuable than bishops, and his loss of a knight gives us better control of that side of the board - so we could take the opportunity to, well, take the initiative - having pushed his knight back, we now respond by increasing the threat elsewhere.

  • Qg6: After that, if we begin an exchange with the centre pawns, we win, and during the exchange it also opens the board up to give potential for trading rooks.
  • I'm certainly aware it's not the safest of moves but I think it's the boldest! He who says zonk 13:50, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I'd like to see others' thoughts about this move, which was suggested anonymously above. Otis 14:14, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Snark, I think I inadvertently deleted your comment due to my poor wiki skills (perhaps even worse than my chess skills), but would like to see it again, please. I think you said we'd eventually go down a pawn with this move, correct? Otis 14:40, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I did say that, but you didn't delete my comment: I did. :-) I was wrong. I don't see us losing our pawn back but after something like 17...Qg6 18. f4 fxe4 19. fxe5 Rxf1 20. Bxf1, then our advantage just isn't as clear. We have a clear material and positional advantage now...no need to complicate things. Snark 14:46, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • My thinking was that we're going to start exchanging eventually and Qg6 leaves us in a better position for exchanging than with the queen left where it is, I agree that the advantage isnt explicit though. He who says zonk 22:17, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I see it now, thanks Snark. Bb7 is starting to look like the best move to me as well. Otis 15:07, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I agree f4 makes it very difficult for us to prove an advantage. When you're winning, simple play is usually correct play. This isn't simple. Kingpatzer 15:46, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
  1. VOTE by treefity: Like this one. Get's white squares in better position. After this, we're much better prepared for the big center exchange, and will come out with better control of the center.


fxe4


Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4
  • Reduces the number of pieces on the board and puts us in the driver's seat.
  • reduces pawns, does nothing for pieces. Since we have a bishop-knight versuse 2 bishops we like having pawns on the board as a general principle. But more problematically, it makes us reactive, since after fxe4 fxe4 we have to move the quee (probably to g6) when Be3 means we'll have to cede control of the f file to white. Kingpatzer 15:06, 21 July 2006 (PDT)


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