Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move20

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting Closed (Rac8 Wins)

Final Tally

20. ... c5 - 0 Votes
20. ... b5 - 0 Votes
20. ... fxe4 - 7 Votes
20. ... Nc5 - 6 Votes
20. ... Rf7 - 0 Votes
20. ... Rfe8 - 0 Votes
20. ... Rac8 - 10 Votes
20. ... Rfb8 - 1 Vote
20. ... Qh6 - 2 Votes
20. ... Qg6 - 1 Votes
20. ... ba6 - 0 Votes

Doesn't that mean that we've got 10 out of 27 votes for Rac8. How come that this is 63% and not 37% approval rating? -- Jack 81.173.235.135 01:16, 28 July 2006 (PDT)

general stuff

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open at Wednesday 7PM EDT and close at Thursday 12AM EDT(Wednesday night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).


  • (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here


Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

Voting Instructions

Cut and paste the following to vote

# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 
  • You may vote for many moves as you like, but only one vote per move.
  • When voting closes, the move with the most votes wins.
  • If there is a tie, whoever tallies the votes breaks the tie.

Strategy Discussion

Current board position (flip me)
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last move: Ba3

Contents


Are we doing anything to protect from white trading his bishop for our knight and then taking the c pawn? Are we going to trade that pawn for position? V 15:55, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

We can also protect that pawn with the bishop now that the knight is not able to attack a6 immediately. BitBender 17:00, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

Actually, I think if we keep the queen within access of d6, c4 is poisoned pawn. 21. Bxd6 Qxd6 22. Bxc4 Qc5+ and we get the white bishop, hence poisoned pawn. Is this right? V 18:41, 26 July 2006 (PDT)


Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: c5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: b5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc5
Rook Move 3
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Rb8
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Rf7
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Rfe8
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Rac8
Suggested Move: Qh6
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qh6
Suggested Move: Qg5
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qg5
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: ba6


Note: Removing lines where we trade rooks for bishop unless someone has a very good reason for doing so. - arc

  • Please make sure a move does NOT already exist when adding it. arc


c5

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: c5

Protects our knight. Does restrain our knight a bit, but hey, it beats losing a knight or rook. Theroachman

  • This simply loses the c4 pawn: 21...c5 22.dxc6 (e.p.) Bxc6 23.Bxd6 Qxd6 24. Bxc4+ (note capture with check rules out our Qc5+ defense). MOVE ON to next move... Axl 7:48 PM EDT
  • He'll just take the pawn and threaten our bishop with en passant. Jes ter23
    • could you please clarify your objection with a list of moves? I don't see where you're getting at. If he takes our pawn with his bishop he'll lose it to our pawn. (21. Bc5 b4) Theroachman 11:40, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
      • dxc6 takes our pawn en passant: http://www.chessvariants.com/d.chess/enpassant.html
        • response is simply Bxc6, pawn exchange, except its in Black's favor since the white pawn being exchanged is the only one of white's pawns that doesn't have a black pawn in its way. This also would automatically threaten a4, helping pin the white queen. On the whole that looks like a favorable exchange. Speed8ump 12:14, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
          • 20. Ba3 c5 21. dxc6 Bxc6 22. Bxd6 and we are in the same place we were except a knight down with nothing to show for it. Sorry, I don't know the notation for en passant. I figure the point of c5 is to protect the knight. I'm just arguing that it doesn't protect it at all. Jes ter23
            • 22. .. Qd6 ? so its a pawn/pawn and knight/bishop exchange.
      • after en passant 21. dxc6 and our Bxc6 21. Bxd6 Qxd6 22. Bxc4!!! WE CAN NOT LOOSE pawn c4!!! It blocks Na2 and Be2 from attacking our king.--Cubzas 12:41, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
        • Note that 22. Bxc4 Qc5+ allows us to take the bishop since Ze has to lose his move to either move the king or block with his rook. I would happily trade our c4 pawn with Ze's bishop.
          • Isn't our queen blocked from getting to c5? Jes ter23
            • No. It really stands in d6. The grand grand parent had mixed d3 annd d6.
      • Agreed - the c4 pawn is in a pretty good position for us right now. Otis 13:16, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
        • yes, pretty bad, plus I have my concerns for f5...seems not good. It seems as though we really don't want to loose the knight at d6, so this is probably out Speed8ump 12:47, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
        • How does it block Na2? I don't see it. Jes ter23
  • "Protects our knight"?? It's already protected with c7 and our Q! Clearly a bad move. 12.217.38.235 14:48, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Tell me how this isn't huge trouble for us: En Passant on 21. dxc6 Bxc6 22. Bxc6 Qxc6 23. Bxc4 At this point we are in check and the game is back to even. This Move DOES give Ze back his pawn Tramtramtram
    • 23. ... Qc5+ 24. move king or block, and black takes bishop. V 18:56, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
      • V, you mention this "poisoned pawn" idea several times, however, after 20...c5, 21.dxc6 (en passant) the a2-g8 diagonal is opened so Bxc4 comes with check! Ergo, no Qc5+ trick available. -Axl

Voting

b5

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: b5

Here's how it goes down: 20. b5. 21. axb5 Nxb5. 22. Bxc4 Nxa3 and now we're in position to take his other bishop. Hmm, except that if 22. Bxf8 Nxf8. 23. Bxc4… ok, maybe not. MalteseFalcon

  • you mean 22. Bxf8 Nxf8 right? Yeah that would be crap... Theroachman 11:37, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

b5, now, or soon, will weaken a5 and give Ze the B-file for counterplay. It's the wrong strategy. Axl


fxe4

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Otis's Bxc4 position
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Jester's Qxe4 position
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
After:
20. ... fxe4
21. fxe4 Qg6
22. Bxd6 cxd6
23. Bxc4 Nc5 - Jeff

This one gets complicated. I'm not sure how much I like it yet but it's definitely viable. After 20. ... fxe4 21. fxe4 Qg6 he can get our c-pawn with 22. Bxd6 cxd6 23. Bxc4 but after 23. ... Nc5 we're not only threatening his a and e pawns but we're bearing down on his kingside. Jeff 11:38, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

  • Please, people, consider this move. Or at least tell me why you don't think it works! Jeff 13:15, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Let me know if the board on the right is the right line. arc
    • what happens if 20. ... fxe4 21.fxe4 Qg6 22. Bxd6 cxd6 23. Rxf8 (?) or 21. Bxd6 cxd6 22.Qxe4 (?) Jes ter23
      • I don't think that Rxf8 is a big deal, we just trade rooks and I don't think that's important. Qxe4 is definitely a potential line, but I don't think we are much worse off for it, it's just not as rosy a picture as jeff paints. We definitely have options to attack after Qxe4. arc
      • 21. Bxd6 cxd6 22.Qxe4 Nc5! (Hint: he can't 23. Qxc4 because of 23. ... Ba3 so he has to find some place to put his queen and we're all over him.) Jeff 14:14, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
        • He doesn't have to take c4 with his queen. He could use his bishop. Then he wouldn't have to move his queen at all. Jes ter23
          • Hey, if he wants to do 23. Bxc4 that's cool with me, I've always wanted his queen. arc
          • How would he lose his queen if the d6 Knight is gone? Jes ter23
            • Because Nc5 threatens the queen and your move of 23. Bxc4 ignores that. arc
  • What I worry about is 20. ... fxe4 21. fxe4 Qg6 22. Bxc4 ... We can't cover with the knight because it opens up the Ba3 bishop on our rook, which would be covered by white's rook. Scary. Or am I missing something? Otis 13:42, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • If we Nxc4 we get two bishops for a rook. That's an okay trade in my book. arc
      • If he doesn't trade rooks on f8 we have a rook/queen fork available down the road as well. arc
      • Yeah. After 22. ... Nxc4 23. Bxf8 Rxf8 24. Rxf8+ Kxf8 I think we'll be able to eventually pick up those pawns in the middle while bearing down on his kingside. I think this gives us more play than Nc5, but perhaps the simplicity of the latter is worth something in its own right. I'll probably vote for both. Jeff 14:07, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
      • You've convinced me, this is aggressive, but I like the line. Please count this as a vote for me as well as Nc5. Otis 14:10, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I'm almost possitive he will take the d6 knight before he takes c4. If he does that, then you can't take the other bishop. Jes ter23
      • Definitely true. As jeff originally pointed out, we lose our c4 pawn but our threatening a/e pawns and "bearing down on his kingside". I guess if you want this move you have to believe that trading the pawn produces a worthy threat. If the gains don't seem worth the pawn, then clearly you wouldn't vote here. arc
        • Well said, Arc. *sigh* I guess I'm just not convinced. Jes ter23
          • Neither am I, it's awfully fun to argue though. :) arc
            • Yeah it is. Hey Arc. I think i just found a flaw in Nc5. Could you take a look at it for me? Jes ter23
  • I just added what I think is the most likely position (from my initial post). Key threat here are Nxe4 or Qxe4, which he will undoubtedly do something about (e.g. Rfe1) but we can also look forward to Bc8 threatening a later Ba3 and also attacking his a-pawn. Taking out his a-pawn would give us a protected passer on a. Jeff 15:25, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

Jeff's line (last "suggested position" at right) is about equal; there's not enough reason to give up our extra pawn. The c4 pawn gives us a nice bind. We should protect it. Axl

  • The material is equal at that point, but the positions are not even close to equal. White has one pawn hanging and another that he will be unable to defend and Black has multiple additional threats at his disposal. Jeff 19:45, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I concur with Axl: especially because our c4 pawn nicely boxes in the Be2. Let's defend c4! TtT
    • The c4 pawn is a temporary tactical advantage. Material is going to trade down soon and that will fade. Getting the a-pawn and/or the e-pawn will help us in the endgame. If Ze is smart he will realize this and he will get tied down trying to defend them which we can exploit. Jeff 20:01, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Ok, I retract my statement :-). Yes it would be nice to keep c4, but Rac8 leaves us passive without an attack plan and Nc5 causes the triple pawn thingy which by elimination leaves the (I believe) dangerous (but adventurous) fxe4. TtT

Voting

  1. VOTE by Otis 14:10, 26 July 2006 (PDT): Please count this as a vote for me Otis 14:10, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  2. VOTE by Jes ter23: This is fairly even. I can vote for this as well.
  3. VOTE by Jeff 19:46, 26 July 2006 (PDT): I think this is the best line. It is complicated, but it gives us more of an edge.
  4. VOTE by --Cubzas 19:49, 26 July 2006 (PDT) : It is an offensive line in which we lose pawn but which may be succesful at the end
  5. VOTE by W2: I can't refute any of that analysis. This choice is certainly well argued!
  6. VOTE by Snark 20:28, 26 July 2006 (PDT) : Now is the time to make this exchange. We will not lose our pawn.
  7. VOTE by TtT 20:39, 26 July 2006 (PDT): The options for keeping c4 are too disadvantagous so I consider this the only other option that does not leave us down a gives us some value for our pawn

Nc5

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc5

Puts the other knight in the way of the bishop. It's still protected by b6 and it keeps the pressure on c4. This will help prevent Bxc4. Jes ter23

  • The best move (in my opinion). We need to keep c4 protected.
  • Not the best, in mine: After 21.Bxc5 our tripled isolated pawns would be bad, and again White will get counterplay on the b-file. We WANT to play Nc5 at some point but 20.Ba3 forces us to delay -- that was one of the main points to Ze's 20th move. We should defend c4 another way. Axl
    • If 21. Bxc5 bxc5 and Ze looses nicely developed bishop and I do any good move for him in 22.
      • If 22. exf5 we go for exchange of queens, if 22. g4 we play fxg4
    • If 21. something else we double preasure at e4 which is always good. --Cubzas 12:25, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I like this move because it allows to move either knight as long as one remains. Both knights will be in a good position, and we can begin to establish attacks with either of them as backups. Both knights will be protected, this continues development, and we don't have to move our rook pointlessly. The only other options I like are to potentially move a completely separate piece and just allow our pinned knight to stay pin. I like this more though. - arc
  • I like this move because of the added pressure it places on the center, in particular e4. Additionally, this frustrates any thoughts Ze may have had of a skewer with his Ba3 move - I'm willing to accept a knight-bishop exchange at this point. Even with a follow on en passant move by Ze after the knight-bishop exchange (NOT POSSIBLE -Axl), our bishop can take his pawn and be in good position to threaten the pawn on a4 as well as pressuring the center.I will be asleep when the polls officially open and would like for my vote to count for this move when the polls open. Thanks! Otis 13:04, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • After 20 ... Nc5 21 Bxc5 bxc5, en passant (22 cxb6 - is that the notation?) is not a valid move. En passant can only occur when the pawn being taken has just moved forward two squares. Additionally, it has to happen on the move immediately subsequent to the 2-square move by the pawn to be taken.64.7.149.152 13:48, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • This move is playable for sure but I am really starting to believe in fxe4. Go through the variations of fxe4 and you'll see we get a stronger attack with that and we don't end up with tripled pawns like we do with this move. Jeff 13:14, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • The tripled pawns is definitely...undesirable. arc
    • I don't like the triple stacked pawns, but I don't see any better move. If we move here, I'm not sure he will take the knight anyway. Jes ter23
    • How we are stronger after fxe4? 21 Bxd6 cxd6 22. fxe4 and we have to move Qg6 23. Bc4 which protects d5 and we lost our advantage and b-t-w if 21. we play c6 we will not have triple pawns anymmore.--Cubzas 13:26, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Exactly - meaning Bxc4 is the move I worry about in the fxe4 line. Otis 13:51, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
      • This is all discussed under fxe4. It's true there are a lot of variations. Jeff 14:26, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I just reallized that this move would open up the b file if he desides to take the c5 knight. I'm not sure how to counter Rb1 if that happens. Jes ter23
    • Hmmm, we could either respond with Ba6 to protect our pawn, or just move our rook to b8, no? Alright, I'm off for the knight, I trust the fabulosos. arc
  • I don't have much time to say everything or think for very long, but Nc5 and Rac8 are the only viable good moves we have. Read my comment under Rac8, as it also pertains to this move. I'm not sure why exactly, but I think Rac8 is better. MJTisMe23 15:17, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Actually, I have time for one more, the Jester Just explained why I think Nc5 is bad: Rb1. Our Nd7 needs to stay where it is. MJTisMe23 15:24, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 20...Rac8 is better because if 20...Nc5 Ze will almost certainly take it with the Bishop. The threat of Nc5 was one of the main reasons for 20.Ba3 -Axl
    • yes, but as Arc pointed out, Ba6 can counter Rb1 very nicely. Jes ter23
      • yes, but we moved Ba6 in move 10. It's move 20. Should I plan on us doing it again @ 30? We should keep our bishop on the long diagonal, especially considering white's pawn structure. MJTisMe23 17:36, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Can someone explain this move to me? Why would we want triple stacked pawns again? I don't get it. V 18:45, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • This move is madness. You're all fans of tripled isolated pawns? Snark 20:26, 26 July 2006 (PDT)


Voting

  1. VOTE by Otis: I will be asleep when the polls officially open and would like for my vote to count for this move when the polls open. Thanks! Otis 13:04, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  2. VOTE by Geedubber 16:41, 26 July 2006 (PDT) : I can support this move as well
  3. VOTE by Jes ter23: I think this is very workable.
  4. VOTE by mayorcjSR 17:41, 26 July 2006 (PDT): This is the best of all possible moves, but, well, there are others that would also float.
  5. VOTE by--Cubzas 19:35, 26 July 2006 (PDT) As I said pawn c4 is a foundation of our advantage right now, if we are to lose it lets make Ze pay for it.
  6. VOTE by W2: My first vote. The last few moves didn't seem to have much to decide but I think this is a critical decision.

Rf7

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Rf7

Leaves our d6 knight threatened, but c7 is poised to protect him. Keeps the rook out of danger should we move from d6. ecd 11:30, 26 July 2006

  • I think this is a fine safe move but it gives Ze the initiative. We are pretty much wasting a move even though we unpin the knight, I think. - arc
  • as was discussed elsewhere (the c5 move) the loss of d6 virtually garantees the loss of c4, which we don't want. I'd say no based on that. Speed8ump 13:01, 26 July 2006 (PDT)


Rfe8

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Rfe8

Moves our rook out of the way in case we move d6 and helps us out in a long e4 exchange. Captainmnb 12:08, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

  • I think this is a fine safe move but it gives Ze the initiative. We are pretty much wasting a move even though we unpin the knight, I think. - arc
  • as was discussed elsewhere (the c5 move) the loss of d6 virtually garantees the loss of c4, which we don't want. I'd say no based on that. Speed8ump 13:04, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Good point, that just doesn't seem to be acceptable. arc


Rac8

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Rac8

Moves our rook to protect c pawn. 21. Bxd6 cxd6 22. Bxc4 ...

  • Our c pawn is not under attack. arc
    • we would still lose Nd6 and the pawn at c4, which is very useful where it is. Jes ter23
    • Wait. How would you get a rook to c5? oh. do you mean R(a)c8? That isn't a bad move. if he takes the d6 knight and the pawn at c4 then he'll lose both bishops. It may be ok. I'm just not comfortable with losing the d6 knight though. He is holding down the fort right where he is.Jes ter23
    • The only points to Ze's 20.Ba3 are to threaten our c4 pawn via the exchange on d6 or to control our Nc5 threat. If 20...Rac8, the exchange 21. Bxd6 cxd6 is GOOD for us, because he will have traded off his "good" bishop (not restricted by his pawns) and we will be sure to get in Nc5 at some point. A knight on c5 is better than the current one on d6 -- we should not fear this exchange, but welcome it. -Axl
  • This is good move in my opinion. I do not even think that Ze will decide to give up two bishops for a Knite and a pawn. In fact, I think I prefere it over Nc5--Cubzas 13:59, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • can anyone see any bad lines with this one? Jes ter23
    • I think it's a good defensive measure, but since he clearly won't trade both of his bishops for a knight and a pawn, what are the advantages to this positionally? arc
    • I don't see any disadvantages right away, and agree this is a good defensive move. What are your intentions after this move though? What line do you see developing? Otis 14:25, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
      • After 21. Bxd6 cxd6 (if that goes down) our rook will be in position to move out to the center of the board.
        • But do you really expect Ze to do Bxd6 in this case? And if he did, it's still a couple of moves for our rook to get out until our other pawn is out of the way. Our knight is still pinned down because our rook is at f8. I like fxe4 or Nc5 more. arc
        • I think Ze might go Bxc4 before Bxd6. I like the other moves more, unless someone can show me a couple moves out where they think this leads. Otis 14:28, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
          • Hmmm, if we do Nxc4 that means we'd be exchanging a rook/pawn for two bishops, not rook/knight/pawn for ze's bishops, no? arc
          • You're right. I'm not sure he'll make either move, but if he did, I agree with your assessment. This move is based on the assumption that Ze will follow this line, and while not a bad move, I still like the Nc5 and fxe5 moves more. Otis 14:47, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
          • Giving up the Bishop pair for Rook and Pawn would be a huge mistake for White.

-Axl

          • Also if we moved our knight to e3 after we would be pinning his queen and rook making that string of moves even worse because it would be him losing 2 bishops and a rook. For our pawn, Rook, and knight. Which means if you use the point system we're up 2 points. -Daniel51a (I don't know how to make an account or anything so I'll just use that name if I ever post again)

Would R(f)c8 make more sense? Then either Bxc4 Kxc4 (trade pawn for bishop) or Bxd6 cxd6.

  • No, the Rook on A8 is inactive, while the f-file is likely to open up at some point. -Axl

Without all that algebraic notation mumbo jumbo (only kidding), I'll simply support this move by regurgitating Sun Tzu: "Who gathers first at the battle arena, expecting the enemy, is relaxed. Who arrives last and throws himself into a battle too fast, will exhaust." Our Nd6 is perfectly safe under Ze's impotent threat. This move gives us mobility and continues our (defensive) initiative. No need to make game-changing attacks until we are ready. MJTisMe23 15:05, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

  • Well said. -Axl
  • Another thing I just noticed is that if he takes the knight at d6, he could move Rb1 and pin our d7 knight to the b6 pawn. Jes ter23
    • Yes, the Knight will be temporarily tied down, but without his dark-squared bishop, there will be no way to threaten it or generate counterplay on the b-file. -Axl
  • Oh MAN!!! How could I have missed this? I didn't get it being behind two pawns, but that's the point. c4 is poisoned, so we don't need to defend it. Advancing the back c pawn means that we have another piece to take charge and if c4 is then taken, it frees our queen from going to c5, checking and recapturing. We can use the rook right away. Or at least have the option. I'm in V 18:55, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • This move doesn't suck. It does a better job of preserving our material advantage and pawn structure than Nc5 but it really slows us down just when we were building up for a fight. Jeff 19:57, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • This is the move I originally liked but I feel the Ba3 will be actively helping Ze's attack while our Nd6 stays debilitated. We would have to spend an extra move getting our Rf8 out of the way and that seems to be a waste of time. And I do not see a proper attack plan from this position either. TtT
    • OK, cool, please for for fxe4 then :-) Jeff 20:12, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Did you ever have this gut feeling that you're missing something important? I have that for fxe4 :-). But I'm considering it. I feel we should defend c4 to the teeth so I might go for Nc5 instead. TtT
  • I've been trying to follow along. I think I've got my head around the position. So what does this move do exactly? W2
  • This is a tolerable move but not the best. We're still ultimately going to want to play fxe4 but this gives White a chance to get his pieces into a more useful arrangement first. For instance, 20...Rac8 21. Rad1 fxe4 22. fxe4 Qg6 23. Rxf8 Rxf8. That would be better if his rook was still on a1.
  • I have switched to the fxe4 camp. This move does not really do us any other good than defend against this particular c4 threat and leaves us passive without a proper attack plan. TtT
  • With this move, I think white will respond with exf5. Lukewarm_Soup

Voting

  1. VOTE by Axl: Hey folks, WE'RE UP A PAWN! Ze's pieces are discoordinated. We need to complete our development, whilst answering the immediate threat.
  2. VOTE by MJTisMe23 17:40, 26 July 2006 (PDT): Development is the key. This is not a time to make assumptions about which direction white will move, but to progress our pieces to limit ALL of white's options.
  3. VOTE by Lefthand50: Moving from lurker to voter. Not a fan of the triple-stacked pawns, and also the C5 pawn is unprotected after the Bishop-Knight trade. Letting the C4 pawn go in a trade on D6 trade unstacks our pawns and opens a lane for our rooks later. Let's make Ze come to us.
  4. VOTE by Tramtramtram: I agree this leads to a lot of goodness in tradedown land
  5. VOTE by V 18:55, 26 July 2006 (PDT) : Development and backup!
  6. VOTE by Miffed 19:37, 26 July 2006 (PDT): Because of this move, he will not take the d6 Knight, and will be forced to regroup. I predict his next move will be particularly lame and will give us the advantage for the remainder of the game.
  7. VOTE by --Cubzas 19:45, 26 July 2006 (PDT) : By defending c4 we eliminate Ze's knight and disadventage white bishop, once we lose it they are back in game.
  8. VOTE by bobbie_macrap at me 19:51, 26 July 2006 (PDT): actually, I like this even better than Nd5 or Qh6
  9. VOTE by bitBender 11:20, 26 July 2006 (EDT): better than ba6
  10. VOTE by mick129 20:58, 26 July 2006 (PDT): because i don't see the point of giving up our c pawn

Rfb8

Prepares, after Ba6, to advance b5 and begin an attack on the queenside. (Although I still like f4 first, to eliminate any kingside counterplay if anyone else wants to propose it.) Ze can win c4 if he wants, but as long as he has to lose the two bishops to do so, we still stand better. --Macgabhain 13:43, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

  • In fact, I think I prefere it over Nc5. -- unknown
  • I don't like the way this opens up the f-file. Otis 14:33, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • How does this open the f file? Ze can open the e file with exf5, but his f3 pawn is still blocking the f file. (Also, other than fxe -- which opens the f file -- or f4 all of our moves allow the e file to be opened.) I agree with the Sun Tzu comment in Rac8 above. I believe this to be the proper rook move for that purpose however, as the coming exchange on b5 will leave us with a passed a pawn, which the a8 rook will already be supporting. --Macgabhain 15:14, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • As mentioned under the 20...b5 suggestion: b5, now, or soon, will weaken a5 and give Ze counterplay on the b-file. Axl
    • Um... b5, properly supported, makes a5 an outside passed pawn and the most dangerous pawn on the board. Counterplay on the b file is useless if we own it.--Macgabhain 17:47, 26 July 2006 (PDT)


Voting

  1. VOTE by Macgabhain 15:36, 26 July 2006 (PDT): I have to head out to teach in a few minutes, so I'm voting not too early.

Qh6

Suggested Move: Qh6
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qh6


Speculative
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative

Ze's move has opened up this diagnal for our queen. Possible line: 18. exf5 Qe3+ 19. Kh1 Nxf4

21. exf5 Qe3+ 22. Kh1 Nxf5 23. Bxf8 Rxf8 -- JackH 81.173.253.119 15:43, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

I don't like that Ze can go Bxd6, then go Bxc4 and later exf5 with near impunity. arc

Our pawn protects d6 as well as our queen, and our queen does not protect c4. She protects f4 from h6 as well as she does now. If we leave her where she is, we can't take e4 without ultimatly exposing her to an attack form the rook, protected as it is by ze's bishop and king. From h6 we can make that play (it turns into a rook sacrificed for a rook), and it also ties down ze's kingside. I like this move. Am I missing something? Wophugus

MY BAD! I meant 22. Kh1 Rxf5. This gets our rook out of the pin as well. (It's bobbie mac, BTW...too lazy to sign in).

  • Unfortunately, this move is pointless because Ze will simply continue with 21.Bxd6, and, if 21...cxd6, he'll collect the c4 pawn (with or without the Qe3+ [1]zwichenzug). So, we'd have to recapture with the Queen, losing time. -Axl


Voting

  1. VOTE by Wophugus: Won't be on later tonight, voting early. Who suggested this move, by the way?
  2. VOTE by bobbie_macrap at me 17:44, 26 July 2006 (PDT): our knights are already protected IMO, ze can't get them without losing his piece as well. That's not the way he's played it so far.

Qg6

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qg6


This move has been suggested the last three rounds . There are good reasons behind it and it is playable now. There are too many suggestions this time for me to comb through, but I know this one is safe. Geedubber 15:25, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

  • This move wins white their pawn back (as does every other move except c5). V 15:52, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • How so? Geedubber 16:34, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Pointless for the same reason as Qh6 (see above). However, 20...c5 is NOT the way to defend the c4 pawn (see the discussion of c5 above). -Axl
      • Sure c5 protects the c4 pawn. See c5 above.
  • Actually, scratch what I said. If 21. Bxd6 Qxd6 22. Bxc4 Qc5+ and we take the bishop. So c4 is poisoned pawn. This goes for most other moves too me thinks. Sorry, false alarm. V 18:38, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Does that mean you support this then? Geedubber 19:06, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I'm undecided, but am no longer against it. I'm not entirely sure what the plain is behind this move. I like that the queen is no longer in line of the white rook if f pawns eventually traded. However, I fail to see anything concrete just yet. Maybe someone could suggest at least one or two positives? V 19:10, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Lets say he responds with exf5.
    • We counter with Qf7 then he tries to go after the c4 pawn again 22. Bxd6 cxd6 23. Bxc4 Bxd5 and things still look okay for us
    • Or maybe we do Qf7 and he doesn't go after then c4 pawn and does something like Rad1, but we can still get our pawn back.
    • Or with Qxf5 then 22. Qxf5 Rxf5 23. Rad1

Geedubber 19:36, 26 July 2006 (PDT)



Voting

  1. VOTE by Geedubber 15:27, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

ba6

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: ba6

This allows the exchange of the our knight for his bishop while protecting the c4 pawn. After the exchange the pawns will be better distributed in their own rows and the trade will be in our favor when the board clears some BitBender 16:54, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

  • I haven't looked too far into it, but this might work as well. Jes ter23
  • The trouble with 20...Ba6 is that we lose the pressure on white's center. Ze's exf5 would become viable whereas at present it is not. Our Bishop would sit on a6, doing little. This might be relevant for the plan of pushing b5, but that's not the right strategy for reasons discussed above. -Axl
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