Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move21

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting CLOSED (Qg5 Wins)

Final Tally

21. ... Qg6 - 8 Votes
21. ... fxe4 - 3 Votes
21. ... Nc5 - 0 Votes
21. ... c5 - 2 Votes
21. ... Qg5 - 12 Votes
21. ... Ba6 - 1 Votes
20. ... c6 - 3 Votes

Doesn't that mean that we've got 12 out of 29 votes for Rac8. How come that this is 63% and not 41% approval rating? (see yesterday), JackH 01:29, 28 July 2006 (PDT)

  • That overlooks the fact that there were only 20 distinct voters. 63% is wrong though. the correct support percentage is 12 / 20 = 60%. Jeff 11:30, 28 July 2006 (PDT)

general stuff

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open at Thursday 7PM EDT and close at Friday 12AM EDT(Thursday night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).


  • (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here


Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

Voting Instructions

Cut and paste the following to vote

# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 
  • You may vote for many moves as you like, but only one vote per move.
  • When voting closes, the move with the most votes wins.
  • If there is a tie, whoever tallies the votes breaks the tie.

Anti-voting

Just to be complicated, I've decided to "anti-vote" this move (-874). It works as follows.

  • A user can vote or anti-vote for as many moves as they like, but cannot vote and anti-vote during the same move.
  • Anti-votes count as "-1" when votes are tallied.
  • Effectively, anti-voting allows users to support all moves except those they anti-vote for. The advantage of this is early voters aren't forced to vote against moves that have yet to be proposed.
    • UMMM NO! We would have to vote on whether to allow anti-votes first. You can't just decide something like that Geedubber 15:58, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Ok, so he goes down as a vote for everything except those two. If you allow multiple votes this is just a notational convenience. Speed8ump 16:02, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
        • The math works out differently. It is not the same thing Geedubber 16:09, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
          • which only matters for the percentage, not the winning move. If you don't tally it his way I'll just cast my votes that way. I wouldn't normally vote but I feel you are being unfair. For the record I'm also annoyed at him for causing such confusion. Speed8ump 16:11, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
            • and deciding a new voting method without community consent is fair? just mark him down as voting for all other moves, I would be chill with that. Hell, I'll do it for him. Geedubber 16:17, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
              • Thanks, that's all I wanted. Speed8ump 16:25, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • If we allow anti-votes, then the best voting strategy will be to always anti-vote the moves you don't like which effectively makes anti-voting just some extra editing you need to do on the page to express your preferences. Unless anti-voting is restricted to only certain moves, but that just makes it more tedious because you have to keep checking back and switching your anti-vote to the leading competing move. Executive Summary: Allowing anti-votes is equivalent to not allowing them except for extra busy work monitoring and editing the wiki page. Jeff 16:18, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • yes, as I said, a notational difference, not really a mathematical one, since we allow multi-voting (which I frankly think is wishy-washy, but the masses have spoken). Speed8ump 16:25, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • actually, I think anti-voting is setting us up for a problem. If everyone antivotes then I can sabotage the move by adding an undebated move just before the vote tally. This move will have 0 antivotes and will therefore win. I'd call that an emphatic reason *not* to allow this. Speed8ump 17:03, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Perhaps we should hold the anti-voting vote tomorrow. cause I am pretty sure 87 would want to vote for it. Otis and Axl voted early as well so they won't be able to vote for or against it. Geedubber 16:44, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I'd agree, since I'm sure that 87 would also like to defend the use of it for those who must cast votes early. The current system does prevent early voters from preferring moves haven't evaluated over moves they actively feel are bad. Whatever, it all works out in the end. Speed8ump 16:56, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • In response to DavidHowell's comment in his vote below: The problem with anti-votes is not how you envision that they could be used but rather how other people will inevitably use them. See Unintended Consequence and Game Theory
    • While Jeff's description of the best voting strategy (above) doesn't really proove the point, it does show the problem. If he is correct then everyone will begin doing this. If everyone does this then we are open to the possibility of the sniping problem. I'm not saying it *will* happen, but at least think through the consequences. Heck, if Ze could pull it off he might do so just to watch us squirm. Speed8ump
  • Okay, now *I* want a new voting system. Each of us have to list our ELO chess ratings. Then our votes will each get factored by a weight equal to the square root of our rating. If you anti-vote, the vote is worth -0.5 times the square root of your ELO. If you don't have an ELO rating, then you have to submit your vote to a Wiki committee, consisting of ELO-rated members, who will determine if your vote will count. After two approved votes, you don't have to submit your vote to a committee anymore and you can vote as a full "member" of the Wiki. That all sounds simple, right? Snark 19:56, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Even better, since some people don't have accurate ELO ratings or ratings from the same pool, we should all duke it out on FICS in a big roundrobin tournament. Or not. Jeff 06:46, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Isn't it interesting that while I'm sure you abuse your health care benefits... i.e. my doctor vist co-pay is only $35 so I don't care who fit's the bill, or that the money obviously has to come from somewhere? Your main concern is of the overuse and abuse of the ability to exercise a more finely tuned mecanic in expressing ones views. I'm sure by the simple fact that many of the voters don't actually understand the idea and therefore regect and vote against it, that your fears are well founded. Perhaps I should change my vote since Ze always talks down to his audience we should definately keep a system full of potential developement "dumbed down"--DavidHowell 03:45, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Despite my earlier comments that it is just a notational convenience, it isn't. I admit I was wrong about that. What anti-voting implies is that new moves automatically are assumed good, rather than assumed to be crap. Normal voting assumes all moves are bad, and promotes the good ones. Anti-voting assumes all moves are good and demotes the bad ones. Assuming all moves are good is not a good plan in chess. There are usually just a few good moves and a whole mess of bad ones. Oh, and BTW, insulting your audience is generally considered "not persuasive".

Vote for or against anti-voting

This poll has been moved to Move 22 discussion. You may vote on this issue until 12am Monday (Sunday night).

Strategy Discussion

Current board position (flip me)
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last move: Rab1

Contents

Rac8

must have been a pretty good move...he's sure taking his sweet time responding to it!  : )

  • It may be time to "Make our Move" and start the fxe5 chain . . . where it stops, nobody knows! SaintPeter 13:05, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Does anybody see a good reason for Ze to play this move? The only reasons I can think of are either to attack a5 (don't see one) or to prevent b5 which is not a threat to him in the first place. TtT


Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qg6
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qg5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: c5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Ba6





Qg6

Suggested Move: Qg6
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qg6
  • Probably worth doing before fxe4, I'd imagine, otherwise we'd be force to move our Queen afterwards. -874 13:19, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • This may be worth looking at. We have everything pretty well guarded. I think it's time to develop the queen some, but we do have to be careful. Our queen is what's guarding the d6 knight. Jes ter23
  • I like this move, but I'm concrened about tempo. This gives HIM another chance to develop another piece as well. It's a fine line between continuing to develop and starting the chain of moves with fxe4. What can he do at this point that would mess us up for fxe4? Or threaten other backfield pieces? SaintPeter 13:28, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I agree on the tempo thing. I feel we have developed the extreme backfield enough, time to move the troops forward. arc
    • The way it looks to me, if Ze initiates an attack, he is going to comeout the worst for the wear. This gives us plenty of time to possition our pieces any way that would be benificial to us. Also, there isn't much developing he can do. Most of his pieces are trapped or hindered. Jes ter23
      • I think you have to show me where you plan on going with this. Moving around all of our pieces so they aren't threatened currently doesn't seem like a good plan to follow to me. arc
    • But with this move, exf5 forces us to move our queen and we won't be able to do Bd5.
      • Well, we could kill the pawn with the rook. arc
      • Correct, we would much rather answer exf5 with Bxd5, so this move's out. -Axl
        • duh. ok, this doesn't look so bad. we can also move Rf6 in a upcoming move and kill any potential ze has from doing Bxd6.
          • I do not see where would Rf6 lead us since 'potential' Ze gets from Bxd6 is our lack of protection for pawn c4 but it is not a problem anymore since we can play cxdc and our rook protects c4.--Cubzas 14:59, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Or maybe we should go for exchange of Queens --Cubzas 14:59, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • we don't want to do fxe4 cause that opens up the f file. if he goes exf5 then the f file will still be closed. we want him to initiate the exchange. Geedubber 14:53, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • perhaps I'm slow but I really don't see an advantage here over Qg5, can someone point it out? Speed8ump 16:19, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • we can't cover the d6 knight with our queen with Qg5. This give us options on how to recapture that square Geedubber 16:24, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I see no reason to take d6 with our queen because that would mean losing c4. We can also suppor d6 with our next move if we move Rf6, which develops our rook nicely.
    • Another advantage is that after exf5 Rxf5 our rook has a couple of additional squares to move to which could come in handy if we were to, oh say, attack his king. Jeff 16:47, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I think we sould not respond to exf5 with Rxf5. We would at least first take the lone pawn with our bishop and then, if we please take the f pawn later. This doesn't look like a good move for white in the near future so why would we position us for it? Also I think you are vastly underestimating the power of Qe3+ which Qg5 provides us.
        • The power of Qe3+ is undeniable. Which is why White will move Qc1 in response to prevent it. I had a change of heart on Qg5 though, I think that while white does get the opportunity to manuever his queen, there's not much he can really make of it. Jeff 18:54, 27 July 2006 (PDT)


Voting

  1. VOTE by Geedubber 16:07, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  2. VOTE by (-874)
  3. VOTE by --Cubzas 16:23, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  4. VOTE by Jeff 16:24, 27 July 2006 (PDT): This move is almost as good as fxe4. Allows retaking f5 with the rook instead of the queen.
  5. VOTE by MJTisMe23 17:07, 27 July 2006 (PDT): with this move, we have a much better idea of what we're getting. Ze has been taking his sweet time because it seems like whoever starts the fight at e4-f5 will be at a disadvantage.
  6. VOTE by mick129 17:17, 27 July 2006 (PDT): i dislike this one least. we're getting a bit bogged down. i want to clear off the board a little very soon.
  7. VOTE by 24.99.234.198 17:54, 27 July 2006 (PDT): First vote for me, but I've been following the game. This works well to set up fxe4.
  8. VOTE by bobbie_macrap at me 19:20, 27 July 2006 (PDT)

fxe4

Suggested Move: fxe4
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: fxe4


Suggested Move: fxe4
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
21. .. fxe4 22. fxe4 Qg6 23. Rxf8+ Kxf8
  • This still leads to us being forced to move our Queen and possibly trade rooks, which I don't think we want. -874 13:21, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Is this the best time to do this move? Or should we wait to develop our backfield even more, a la Qg6 as above? I'd like to see how this will possibly play out as is. SaintPeter 13:29, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I still like this move. Qg6 can occur after the pawn exchange on e4. Otis 13:38, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • The main argument against doing this move LAST move was that we would lose the c4 pawn. With our rook where it is I see that obstacle as being removed. There is an awful lot of discussion from yesterday that I won't repeat, and will instead link to here - arc
  • Is any part of this not forced? 21. .. fxe4 22. fxe4 Qg6 23. Rxf8+ Kxf8. Do we like the outcome? -874 13:43, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • It could be 23. Rxf8 Nxf8. Because if Kxf8 we still end up losing the c4 pawn. Otis 13:51, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Why do we lose the c pawn? Right now I see it as being covered by d6, the only way to eliminate d6 is by Bxd6, which we counter with cxd6. This activates our rook to cover the c pawn from a bishop take. arc
    • We can also Nxf8, though I'd probably prefer just to Kx it. arc
    • This is getting a little ahead, but if we took it with the king all Ze would have to do is Bxc4 and we couldn't take his bishop back with our knight because we would go into check from the a -file bishop. Otis 14:21, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • That is a crappy situation. Jes ter23
      • if Nxf8, then Bxd6 cxd6, Rxb6 and now there is a rook in the middle of our pieces. fxe4 doesn't look too bad though. I know we have to do this move eventually. The question is, do we do it before or after Qg6? Jes ter23
        • I don't understand. If Nxf8, then Bxd6 couldn't we counter with Qxd6 to protect b6? (Yes, but that renders moot our last move -Axl)
          • Our last move is done. Maybe our last move was a waste but this is still a good position. Not as good as fxe4 last move but still stronger than any of the other moves on this page IMO. So to be clear, what I'm suggesting is that 21. ... fxe4 22. fxe4 Qg6 23. Rxf8+ Rxf8 24. Bxd6 Qxd6 leaves us looking pretty good. We control the f-file and we are still up a pawn (HINT: 25. Bxc4?? Qc5+!). Jeff 16:56, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Well done. These lines effectively rule out fxe4. We shouldn't release the pressure on white's center, but build on it. -Axl
      • Thanks for looking ahead more than my brain permits otis, good call. Okay, so I don't like any of the moves. arc
      • lol the trouble is I don't really like any of the moves either... Otis 14:39, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • ANTI-Vote by -874 15:06, 27 July 2006 (PDT): Cancels out one vote for this move (i.e. effectively one vote for each other move I don't also anti-vote, per multiple voting). (Pre-voting due to time-zones)
    • We must vote on whether to allow antivotes first. whoever tallies the vote should ignore this Geedubber 15:59, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I disagree. it should be tallied as one vote for everything not mentioned. as I said above a notational convenience. Speed8ump 16:09, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Yeah, he could have just voted for everything else, but this saves time. Jes ter23
        • The math works out differently. Voting for all other moves is not the same as as an anti-vote which he described as "Anti-votes count as "-1" when votes are tallied.". We only allowed multiple-voting after a vote by the community. This must go to a vote as well. Geedubber 16:14, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
          • regardless of how it works, i think it needs to be proposed and discussed. this same thing happened with mutliple voting (and I'm guilty of (hard)charging into that at the first mention of it) before we waited a day and discussed it. it only takes us a day to propose, debate and vote on something like this. i'm sure 87 wouldn't mind waiting 24 hours to let us digest the idea.

Voting

  1. VOTE by Jeff 16:20, 27 July 2006 (PDT): I think this is still a good move. If we don't do it, I think next move for white is exf5.
  2. VOTE by Geedubber 17:03, 27 July 2006 (PDT) : This is better than Qg5
  3. VOTE by Snark 19:53, 27 July 2006 (PDT): Now is the time, finally! Don't step back from the challenge, people!

Nc5

Suggested Move: Nc5
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc5
  • Gets another of our pieces pointed at e4; hems Ze in further back in his territory; kind of pins his Queen to a pawn, for what that's worth. -874 13:15, 27 July 2006 (PDT)\
    • I don't think this is a good move now that we moved Rc8. It makes that move useless. Also, now that he has Rb1 our c7 pawn is overloaded. I think it would be a good idea to keep Nd7 and protect the b6 pawn.Jes ter23
    • 22. Bxc5 bxc5. 23. Rxb7 Nxb7. 24. Bxc4 seems like a dicey potential exchange. MalteseFalcon
      • Agreed. Jes ter23
      • Yep, this doesn't look as good now - based on the line Maltese Falcon describes above. Otis 13:32, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • ANTI-Vote by -874 15:07, 27 July 2006 (PDT): Cancels out one vote for this move (i.e. effectively one vote for each other move I don't anti-vote, per multiple voting). (Pre-voting due to time-zones)

ONLY ONE Anti-Vote is allowed

    • Why is only one Anti-vote allowed? doesn't that just mean that he votes for all the others except for these two? Jes ter23
      • Maybe because we want to choose the best move and not the worst --Cubzas 15:45, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Better? Yeah, wish I could vote later, but it's already 11:30pm here, and the polls close at like 6am... stupid time zones! -874 15:32, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • We must vote on whether to allow antivotes first. whoever tallies the vote should ignore this Geedubber 15:59, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I disagree. it should be tallied as one vote for everything not mentioned. as I said above a notational convenience. Speed8ump 16:10, 27 July 2006 (PDT)

Voting

c5

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: c5


Resulting Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
21. .. c5 22. xc6(ep) Rxc6 23. Bxd6 Qxd6 24. xf5
  • The problems with c5 from last move have been mitigated by the presence of c8 (if we lose d6 to a Knight/Bishop exchange we are still supporting c4. Speed8ump 14:49, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • en passant exchange would seem to follow: 22. xc6(ep) Rxc6 23. Bxd6 Qxd6 which leaves everything still supported Speed8ump 14:57, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Our f5 pawn would be a gonner (exf5) and support from Ze's Queen would prevent Rxf5. -874 15:02, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • yes, you beat me to the punch. I don't see an immediate response "fixing" this...Qa3? that's agressive, but I have a hard time evaluating all the possible responses. Speed8ump 15:11, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
        • This would weaken b6 unnecessarily and, Ze could NOT take, thereby eliminating our threat of Nc5 at some future point. -Axl
        • 24. .. Qa3 25. Qb2 Qxb2 26. Rxb2 and we've traded an advanced queen for a under-developed queen and let Ze partially develop a rook in the process. Not good, methinks. -874 15:36, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
          • yes, not good, we could retreat but that right back where we started. The only other option I see at that point is Qc5+. but I don't see that we can use the check to any advantage in regaining the pawn.
    • And does this also hem our knight in a bit, as it can't move to c5 lest it block support for the c4 pawn? I mean, these two critisms might not mean the move's not worth doing, but I figured they were worth mentioning. -874 15:13, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • All I have to say is, Bxc5 bxc5, Rxb7. Jes ter23
      • Wouldn't we do 21. .. c5 22. Bxc5 Nxc5 ? -874 15:22, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Oh, no never mind, that strands the pawn at b6 -874 15:24, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Carrying on from your line, though: 21. .. c5 22. Bxc5 bxc5 23. Rxb7 Nxb7 and we've lost a pawn and bish but gotten a bish and rook, no? -874 15:27, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • 22. Bxc5 Rxc5? Speed8ump 15:29, 27 July 2006 (PDT)


Voting

  1. VOTE by Jes ter23 : I think these are the only two good moves.
  2. VOTE by (-874)

Qg5

Suggested Move: Qg5
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qg5
  • Allowes us to Qe3+ if needed and puts pressure to Ze's king side where he is unable to move very effeciently. Also opens us up to do Rf6 to cover the knight later since Ze can't do anything critical with his current move.
  • If Ze moves f4, exf4 is quite good for us, yes? As it'll block the f-file after fxe4? -874 14:45, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Yes, that's unlikely. -Axl
      • I don't see anything wrong with this move though. Jes ter23
      • Ok, it's late now and I have to make a decision, so please count this as a vote for me when the polls open. It's the only move I see that isn't immediately fraught with peril... Let Ze come to us. Otis 15:33, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Threatens to win the e4 pawn with 21...fxe4 22.fxe4 Qe3+ 23.Kh1 Qxe4. As a consequence, Ze may have to take on f5, after which 22...Bxd5 puts us in the drivers seat (N.B.: 23. Rd1 can be met by Nf6). Also, 22.Bc1 to harass our queen doesn't help Ze. -Axl
    • I would VOTE for this if I could log in after 7:00 PM EDT, but I can't tonight so somebody proxy vote for me. -Axl
    • I like this move. Could anyone tell me why Ze played Rb1. Is there something I do not see? --Cubzas 15:57, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I figure it's to tie up our pieces. With Rb1 threatening b7, we have to keep our knight at d7 or he can get in and take a few good pieces. Jes ter23
      • Rb1 also reduces the usefulness of the b6 pawn in an attack on a4 BitBender 16:24, 27 July 2006 (PDT)

This looks like a better position for our Queen than g6.

  • I think this is our 3rd best move. If anti-voting passes, this get's my ANTI-VOTE, since it looks like the only move I didn't vote for that has any support. Jeff 16:39, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • OH, I suppose I should say why I prefer Qg6. It's because of 21. ... Qg5 22. Qc1 ... What does black do here? Move back to g6? Then he gets to move Qe3. I mean white is still losing at that point but gains a little by being able to maneuver his queen around. Jeff 16:45, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I totally agree with Jeff Geedubber 17:05, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • If Qc1 then perhaps it will be time for 22...f4. His Q on c1 will keep the knight on a2 out of play and disconnect his rooks. OR, trade Queens and take on e4. 22...Qxc1 23. Rxc1 exf4 24. exf4 Nf6, threatening e4 again.
      • Great!, now I'm going to disagree with me. I played through a couple of variations and I think it's all the same in the end. Qg5 Qc1 Qg6 Qe3 and then we can do exf4 w/o losing tempo and can take his rook with check. Or a bunch of other less likely variations. Or he could do something weaker than Qc1. Jeff
      • or we could just move f4 and lock him in too. Jes ter23
        • We won't get a chance to play Qe3+. He will just pre-emptively play Kh1 Geedubber 17:31, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
          • Actually 22. Kh1 would be kind of bad for White because we could immediately initiate 22. ... fxe4 23. fxe4 Qg6! which pins his f-pawn against his queen and therefor threatens Bxd5. Then the pressure is really on. If he does Rxf8+ we take back with the rook and he's even worse off so what can he do? 22. Qc1 is the best way I can see for him to hold it together. Don't get me wrong, this is not my favorite move but we're still winning with it. Jeff 19:09, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Now that this is official, what are the responses to Ze's moves? The one I'm most concerned about is Rb5 (as an indirect attack on f5) Speed8ump 09:51, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Rf6. Then, if he takes the pawn with his rook, Rg6. Then, depending on Ze's move, Qxg2# Otis 11:07, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
      • well, there's a variety of things that he could do to foil that, the easiest would be to move Rf2. If you (foolishly) continue to Qxg2, then Rxg2. You are down a queen for a pawn, oh, and I don't see which pawn he's supposed to take with a rook (without losing the rook). The problem here is that we don't really want to take the rook, and cause a fairly long exchange, but allowing the rook to remain is a foothold. Speed8ump 13:50, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
      • That's why I said IF he takes the pawn with his rook. It's an unlikely move. The point is he has to think about the king-side pressure. Otis 14:05, 28 July 2006 (PDT)

Voting

  1. VOTE : Ok, it's late now and I have to make a decision, so please count this as a vote for me when the polls open. Otis 15:33, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  2. VOTE by Jes ter23 : I think these are the only two good moves.
  3. VOTE by (-874)
  4. VOTE by --Cubzas 16:24, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  5. VOTE by JudiciousH 16:37, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  6. VOTE by Jeff 17:28, 27 July 2006 (PDT): It all works out in the end. I still like fxe4 better though.
  7. VOTE by Animegod 19:57, 27 July 2006 (PDT):
  8. VOTE by Funky citrus 19:49, 27 July 2006 (PDT): the hunt is on?
  9. VOTE by bitBender 22:55, 27 July 2006 (EDT): make better use of the bishop at b7 than Qg6
  10. VOTE by Axl Seems logical.
  11. VOTE by PTWhipplebang 20:43, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  12. VOTE by SaintPeter 21:08, 27 July 2006 (PDT) This looks hot.

Ba6

Suggested Move: Ba6
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Ba6
  • We could do Ba6 and then commence with fxe4 as per the disscusion. This would help protect the c4 pawn. Jes ter23
  • I like this. Kingpatzer said that the bishop was better at b7 for this stage of the game, but it doesn't seem to be doing much to me. At a6 it serves a more immediate purpose. -874 14:56, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
    • The bishop is pressuring d5. We should only consider this if absolutely required to defend c4 again. -Axl
      • Why do we need to pressure d5? Jes ter23
        • We're pressuring his center until it cracks. For one thing, it would be great if we could answer exf5 with Bxd5. So we shouldn't move the bishop to a less active diagonal (a6-f1). -Axl
  • Ha! He suggests anti-voting, then votes for a worthless move! Ze is that you?
    • I marked 87 down as voting for that cause an anti-vote is essentially voting for all the other move except for the one you dislike. Geedubber 16:56, 27 July 2006 (PDT)

Voting

  1. VOTE by (-874)

c6

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: c6
  • I know it's late, but can anyone explain why c5 is superior to c6? It seems like with c6 we're afraid of Ze not capturing our pawn with the en passant, which leaves our rook clogged up on the c-file and the bishop unable to capture the unprotected pawn. If we move to c6 we have the option to take the pawn at d5 if Ze doesn't isolate it by capturing with it. JudiciousH
    • Oh, right. 22. Bxd6 Qxd6, 23. Bxc4 and we've lost a pawn and d5 is protected. Never mind. JudiciousH


Voting

  1. VOTE by (-874)
  2. VOTE by Macgabhain 17:54, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
  3. VOTE by angeplasma 18:57, 27 July 2006 (PDT): maybe it's the caffeine talking, but the lines off this move excite me.
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