Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move27

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting CLOSED: Nf6 Wins

Nc5 - 4 Votes

Nf6 - 16 Votes

Qxe4 - 5 Votes

I updated the move on the front page, but I'm not sure how we decided to calculate the consensus. PTWhipplebangSR! 21:10, 6 August 2006 (PDT)

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open Saturday, 5 August@7PM EDT and close at Monday, 7 August@12AM EDT (Sunday Night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).


  • (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here


Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

Voting Instructions

Cut and paste the following to vote

# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 
  • You may vote for many moves as you like, but only one vote per move.
  • When voting closes, the move with the most votes wins.
  • If there is a tie, whoever tallies the votes breaks the tie.

Strategy Discussion

Current Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last move: Qd1

Contents


Yesterday's Discussion about Qd1

The following is taken from yesterday's discussion of Ze's possible responses to 26. ... cxd6. PTWhipplebang 11:34, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

27...Nc5 or ...Nf6. Seem about the same to me. 27....Qxe4 28. Bf3 is annoying so let's wait to take the e4 pawn. Snark 14:22, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

  • I think I like Nf6 a little bit more because it places the knight in a position that they could aid in a checkmate down the line, if for whatever reason we lay off e4.arc
    • Yeah, that's a good point. But the knight on c5 also attacks the pawn on a4. Snark 14:52, 3 August 2006 (PDT)
      • That's definitely the good thing about Nc5 vs Nf6. Nc5 is probably the better move for long term play, I'm thinking there should be a mate in here somewhere before the endgame though. The one thing about threatening a4 is that if we did move Nxa4, Ze's Qxa4 puts us in a bit (just a bit) of trouble. Of course, threatening isn't the same as taking, and it's easy enough to wait until his queen moves, which she'll have to at some point. arc
        • Well, I don't think there is a forced mate, unfortunately. We'll probably end up with exchanged queens about three connected passed pawns in the center. If Ze doesn't resign, that is. Snark 15:01, 3 August 2006 (PDT)
  • 27....Qxe4 28. Bf3 Qc2 wins us at least one pawn. Geedubber 17:33, 3 August 2006 (PDT)




Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigaderant


Question

Is this the start of the "endgame". Or is it only an endgame when a king is being chased?--Neal 13:00, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

  • opening/middle-game/end-game are somewhat subjective terms. I'd personally think of this as the late middle-game since we both have quite a number of pieces left. But others might call it the start of the end-game. "end game" is characterized by fewer pieces on the board and is typically dominated by pawn play over piece play. Kingpatzer 13:17, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Thanks. Watching this game has been an education. Someone once told me that he learned to appreciate chess after reading a book by Bobby Fischer. This game is having that effect on me. Thanks y'all.--Neal 14:54, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • Yeah, I thought this game was very cool. Joined around move 10 I think. Most of my moves were the ones chosen. It's definitely taught me how to go through lines a little better and know what to watch out for. In the past it was difficult to know, but coming here will tell you if you missed anything. I think this is the beginning of the endgame, but not quite yet. Perhaps a few more moves or when another piece gets taken. BTW, am I the only one who isn't that fond of keeping queens around when the board starts opening up? V 19:15, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

Proposal: Allow Voting Anytime

I propose that we remove the restrictions on when people can vote. Particularly during the week, many people are only able to get on once a day. We have folks queuing up their "pre-votes" because they can't make the deadline. We might as well just make it official and allow folks to vote whenever they want.

  • This is a bad idea. The entire reason a specified vote time was set is to keep people from just putting their votes into moves without being well-informed as to whether it is actually sound (I remember BS like: "This feels like the right move" as if truthiness had a place in this). In fact if I didn't know how important the move discussions were and made sure to ask the questions I needed to become educated, I'd probably have just voted for Bxd5 last move, and a surprising number of people would have done it with me. Nobody is pre-voting without requiring it right now and generally after the bulk of discussion has been completed so it's not a problem. medwardstalk
  • I have to agree. I stayed up all night to discuss the move because I knew I wouldnt get a chance to vote for it, wheras if I'd been able to vote I'd have stuck with the wrong move and gone to bed. He who says zonk 05:20, 5 August 2006 (PDT)

Now, I am no Wiki Guru, but is there a way that everyone could register their votes, but only display the section after 7pm PST? Maybe like the way the blank section templates are put in? Maybe we can discuss this and vote on it on Monday?- SaintPeter 20:10, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc5
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nf6
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qxe4














Nc5

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nc5

This move puts pressure on two pawns, and advances our knight forward. In response, Bh5 would be my best guess, or maybe Nc1 to cover his pieces. Bh5 and we have to move our queen, and if we go Qxe4 he plays good old Bf3. arc

  • 28.Bh5 isn't much of a threat. After ...Qg5 we retain are massive position. -Axl 12:28, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • The problem is there are no massive threats, so any potential plays we see as white are still losing plays. In Nc5 vs. Nf6, all roads leads to the same place that I can see. But I believe that if you count squares Ze has less options of safe moves after Nf6, which should at least count for something. arc
  • with both this move and Nf6 the response to Bf3 would almost certainly be Nxe4. Is there any other plausible move for Ze other than Bf3 in response to either Nc5 or Nf6? Kingpatzer 12:12, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • I don't think he can do Bf3 immediately after any of these or Rxa2. arc
      • Dropping that knight doesn't cost him anything .. it's effectively dead anyway :) But actually I think Rxa2 is a MISTAKE! For example: 27. ... Nc5 (or Nf6) 28. Bf3 Rxa2? 29. Qb1 Rxa4 30. Qxb6 and he's going to have a little bit of activity for a spell. Compare that to 27. .. Nc5 (or Nf6) 28. Bf3 Nxe4 29. Re1 Rd2! Kingpatzer 12:22, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
        • Well, I don't think it's a mistake, but with your line I'd say it delays the inevitable a bit. I think that since we can do Nxe4 with either knight move that Nf6 makes more sense, just because we give ourselves the option to Rxa2 if he Bf3's. I think it's a very slight advantage.arc
          • I don't disagree that it seems more natural, but I don't see a continuation from Rxa2 that's better for us than Nxe4, so I'd disagree that there's an advantage to one move over the other based on that line. Kingpatzer 12:31, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • in the Nf6 thread the question is asked -- what about Bh5. Here's my thoughts: 27. .. Nc5 28. Bh5 Qxe4 29. Bf3 Qc2 and he is going to lose the knight anyway. So, instead of 29. Bf3 what other moves does he have? well . . .he can try 29. Nc1 when we respond 29. .. Bxd5 and he's WORSE OFF than if he had played Bf3 as far as I can tell, because now all of our pieces are in play against his king side. now 30. Bf3 or Qg4 are the only ways to stave off impending doom. But they all fail. Bf3 is met with RxB, and Qg4 is met with QxQ followed by Nxa4 after the recapture. Kingpatzer 12:29, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • Just out of curiosity, what do we do if: 27. ... Nc5(or Nf6) 28. Bxc4 ... Is our next move then 28. ... Nxe4 29. Bd3 Bxd5 30. Qe1? We're all assuming white will play Bf3, but if Nxe4 is what we are moving towards, then Bf3 isn't forced at all. Otis 13:07, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Anyone got the answer to this line? Otis 13:14, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • I'm confused. 27. .. Nc1 isn't possible (black can't move Nc1 here). So I assume you mean 28. Nc1, but then you're missing a move for black prior to Bxc4, so I'm not sure what line you're asking about . . .Kingpatzer 13:19, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • Sorry, meant Nc5, will correct. Otis 13:20, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • After 28 Nc1 we should rather play Qxe4 to protect the pawn c4
        • I guess what I am saying is Nc5 is preferable to Nf6 because of the potential of Bxc4. Nc5 prevents Bxc4 with the follow-on Bd3, because the knight can cover d3. Otis 13:27, 4 August 2006 (PDT) Otis 13:25, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
          • But how is Nc5 protecting from Bxc4? If we play Qe4 that will not matter
    • ok if 27. .. Nc5 28. Bxc4 Nxe4 29. h3 is more or less forced because the bishop is now on the wrong diagonal to defend. So now we play the very tricky 29. .. Rxa2! he can't recapture because of the threat of Nf2+ (winning the queen) so he has to play Q to either e1 or f3. When we play Rxa4 and we've won a piece and a pawn for a pawn. Threatening his bishop, and giving us the chance to swing the rook over to the king side to an even better square than it was on at f2! The same line happens with Nf6 as Nc5 here. There's no reason that I see to prefere one to the other. Bxc4 is possible in both, and it's equally bad. Kingpatzer 13:32, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • in both Nc5 and Nf6 in either line, Bd3?? leads to mate in 3! 29. .. Ng3+ 30. hxg3 Qh6+ 31. Qh5 Qxh5# Kingpatzer 13:35, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
        • But this is only if he plays Bd3? PTWhipplebang 13:45, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
          • Sort of :) let's say we get to this point: 27. .. Nc5/f6 28. Bxc4 Nxe4 29. He now has to make a move that either gives his king "luft" (space to move), prevents the Ng3+, or protects the d1-h5 diagonal. So he has a few options: h3, g3 or 4, and Qd3 all seem to prolong his death. There might be a few more I'm not seeing. But basically, he screws up with 28. Bxc4 because he needs that bishop to be on the d1-h5 diagonal, and oddly, at this point he just can't move it back, since 29. Bd2 Gives us the very straight-forward Rxe2! And he can't take back with the Queen because of that same mate threat: 30. Qxe2 Ng3+ 31. hxg3 Qh6+ 32. Qh5 Qh5# Kingpatzer 13:55, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
        • Excellent! Thank you, Patz! Otis 13:37, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • I can now pre-vote for either of these moves, lol! Thanks again, Patz. Please count this as my vote when the polls open. Otis 13:40, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • Ze can survive down a piece in this line for a bit. 27...Nc5 28.Bh5 Qg5 29.Bf3 Rxa2 30.Qb1 and 31.Qxb6. Axl
    • why on earth would we play 28. .. Qg5 over 28. .. Qxe4 29. Bf3 is still his best reply, but then 29. .. Qc2 pretty much puts an end to his game. Sure he can survive for a while, but he is lost. And frankly, that's not much different from Nf6. *shrug* I'm not saying that this move is better. I'm just saying I don't see any real difference between Nf6 and Nc5 when the rubber hits the road. In both cases, Bf3 is white's best response, and in both cases we play Nxe4. Thus they lead to the same position. Nc5 allows for some little goofyness with Bh5 but it's bad for white compared Bf3 so I see no reason to worry about it. Kingpatzer 16:30, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • Yeah, okay. Bh5 is crap. I'll go with aesthetics. - Axl


Voting

  1. VOTE by Cubzas 15:19, 4 August 2006 (PDT): Going out tonight so this is pre-vote
  2. VOTE by Otis 13:40, 4 August 2006 (PDT) : Please count this as my vote when the polls open.
  3. VOTE by Axl 23:40, 5 August 2006 (PDT) : This was the move we dreamed of way back in July...Good times...
  4. VOTE by Kingpatzer 05:30, 6 August 2006 (PDT) : just as good as Nf6 so I'm voting for both since I can. (moved up by BKeyport so to correct count, it was starting over at 1)

Nf6

Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Nf6
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Potential Line:

27. .. Nf6
28. Qb1 Rxe2
29. Nc2 Rf2
30. Qxb6

This puts nice pressure on the e4 pawn, moves the knight forward, and also covers Bh5. I don't see many options for white here. arc

  • This seems to cover more of our bases than Nc5. Plus, I like the idea of keeping the knight more on the kingside. PTWhipplebang 12:05, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Agree Cubzas 12:07, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • I like this slightly better than Nc5 as it seems both more natural a square and I like that it is slightly more flexible for a kingside attack. However, c5 is a more advanced square. There may be some subtle reason to prefere one of these knight moves to the other, but I can't see any disadvantage to either. Kingpatzer 12:09, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • What do you think of Bh5 in the case of Nc5? It's not a very serious threat, but the one thing about this move is I can't really see anything he can do next move that will be effective. arc
      • That's one of the reasons I like this move better, it kind of neutralizes the Bh5 threat. PTWhipplebang 12:14, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
        • I don't see Bh5 as much of a threat now that his Q is on d1. In the case of Bh5 we just play Qxe4 no? Kingpatzer 12:17, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
          • The one thing about Bh5 is it lets him get his bishop off of row 2 without losing his knight to our rook. His e4 is dead no matter what, I think. Either way I don't see a very bright light at the end of Ze's tunnel, but i'm leaning towards this over Nc5 right now. arc
  • This line is pretty nifty: 27...Nf6 28.Bf3 Nxe4 29.Nc1 Rc2! (Ze can't take because of Nf2+) 30.Rf1 (or 30.Bxe4 QxB with d5 falling next) 30...Nxc3 31. Qe1 (forced) e4. -Axl
  • in both these lines (Nc5 and Nf6) there's a possibility of 28. Nc1 as an attempt by Ze to bring his knight back to life. I think in both cases it is met effectively by 28. ... Nxe4. Does anyone see a reason in the 28. Nc1 line to prefere Nc5 over Nf6 or vice-versa? Kingpatzer 12:35, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • 28. Nc1 Nxe4 29. Bf3 Ng3+ 30. hxg3 Qxg3 31. (whatever) Qh4++ No? Cubzas 12:37, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • and it works for Nc5 as well Cubzas 12:38, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • omg NO! Qxg3?? is a HUGE blunder, after 31. Rf1 white has life again! 31. Rf1 Rxf1+ 32. Qxf1 e4 Kingpatzer 12:40, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • You are right. Ehh - it souded so well.Cubzas 12:46, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • I guess I prefer Nf6 a little bit to Nc5. In both cases I think Nxe4 is our most likely next move so it doesn't matter too much. Snark 13:19, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • By the way, I think we ought to vote for our own MVP... My candidates are Kingpatzer, Jeff, Axl, and Snark. There are many others who have made valuable contributions, but these four stand out above the rest, in my opinion. Otis 13:45, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Agree Cubzas 13:56, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Flattered, but I really only came on board around move 19, so respectfully bow out of your hypothetical. You all were already winning by then! :) Definitely will be around for Fabuloso Chess Redux, though. We should get White... - Axl
      • Lest I forget, the other MVP candidate is, of course, Ze himself... And how about a round-robin tourney amongst our top four players? I'd pay to watch Kingpatzer, Snark, Axl and Jeff square off. The prize money we pledged to Ze can go towards a book for the winner of the round-robin tourney. Otis 13:58, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
        • I'm on the ICC ([1]) as "Axl" often, and will play anyone, anytime, for any stakes. (Ok, maybe not the last one...) - Axl
        • Maybe Ze could assign permanent Fabuloso Master ducky for the winner?
  • Retracting my vote for Nf6 and moving to Nc5. Mainly I prefer Nc5 aesthetically, since we had been setting up for this decisive invasion for weeks...Doesn't look like the masses are into aesthetics, though... - Axl 23:43, 5 August 2006 (PDT)
  • 28. Qb1 and he's threatening to capture our bishop (after Qxb7 we have no recourse .. it's lost) .. he doesn't have to move his bishop at all (Qb1 forks our Knight and pawn, skewers our queen) .. it's a move that exposes black to weakness. He'll be playing his own Zwischenzug .. and I don't think the irony would be lost on Ze. Better to take the pawn now and maintain the advantage than give him a chance to break out. ßrigaderant 05:17, 6 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Or 28. Bxc4 Nxe4 29. Qb1 would be the other way to play it out, keeping the bishop on the board and gaining back two pawns (and another bishop) .. that knight needs to stay in back to defend the back rank. ßrigaderant
      • 28. Bxc4 is really a great move for Ze considering it leads to a forced checkmate for him. And 28. Qb2 isn't possible. So, to sum up, you're worried about a move he can't make, and a move that leads to his forced loss. Ok, I can see why you'd be concerned. . . Kingpatzer 05:26, 6 August 2006 (PDT)
        • 27. .. Nf6 28. Qb1 Nxe4 29. h3 Qe4 30. Qxb6 .. or 27. .. Nf6 28. Qb1 Rxe2 29. Nc2 Rf2 30. Qxb6 .. I don't see a forced mate here .. but the potential check for Ze might lead to one .. you're right. ßrigaderant
          • you're right, no foced mate. However, after 27. Nf6 28. Qb1 Nxe4 29. h3 Ng3+ I don't see how Ze can avoid catastrophic material loss. 30. Kh2 (forced) QxQ 31. RxQ Nxe2 32. Nc1 Bxd5 and Ze will in short order be down a piece and 4 pawns. Kingpatzer 16:05, 6 August 2006 (PDT)
            • You beat me to it. I was just going to suggest this line. 31. Nxe2 protects the critical g1 square and the bishop gunning down the main diagonal is just killer. V 16:22, 6 August 2006 (PDT)
  • I am so confused now. Never mind, I still think this is a good move. PTWhipplebangSR! 17:20, 6 August 2006 (PDT)


Voting

  1. VOTE by Cubzas 15:19, 4 August 2006 (PDT): Going out tonight so this is pre-vote
  2. VOTE by Jeff 16:55, 4 August 2006 (PDT): Prevents Bh5. Probably Nc5 wins just as well.
  3. VOTE by Ari 22:44, 4 August 2006 (EST): Good pressure+Protection. Keeps it on the right side of the board.
  4. VOTE by Otis 13:43, 4 August 2006 (PDT) : Please count this as my vote when the polls open.
  5. VOTE by Kidnapped 22:02, 4 August 2006 (PDT): I'm in.
  6. VOTE by bobby_macrap at me 06:19, 5 August 2006 (PDT): I like that it gives us the option of hitting either d5 or e4 (and if for some crazy reason we want to go g4...we can).
  7. VOTE by mayorcjSR 08:55, 5 August 2006 (PDT): We need to be careful, we don't have enough peices attacking his kingside right now, yes it is threatened but reinforcements are on the way for Ze... this neutralizes the queen threat, yes, but it will also shift his focus in a different direction.
  8. VOTE by SalMancini yup
  9. VOTE by PTWhipplebangSR! 13:38, 5 August 2006 (PDT): I like this better than Nc5 because of the pressure this puts on the kingside.
  10. VOTE by Argonbeam3500 My vote here.
  11. VOTE by Austinshea My vote here.
  12. VOTE BY BKeyport
  13. VOTE by V 22:25, 5 August 2006 (PDT) : Can't really make up my mind... so go with the flow.
  14. VOTE by Marvelous 23:27, 5 August 2006 (PDT): ditto V.
  15. VOTE by Kingpatzer 05:31, 6 August 2006 (PDT) : I think this is the more natural square for the knight, but see no practical difference from Nc5.
  16. VOTE by Snark 10:48, 6 August 2006 (PDT): I refuse to multi-vote on principle, of course, so I think Nf6 is every so slightly better than Nc5.

Qxe4


Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: Qxe4
Suggested Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 27....Qxe4 28. Bf3 Qc2

As Snark points out above, the move of Bf3 is annoying, though we are at least taking care of that pawn. arc

  • i don't know that Bf3 is annoying, as we can simply play Qd3. However, it doesn't seem nearly as good as Nf6 or Nc5. With the knight moves we are bringing more firepower to the game and Ze is starting to feel his material disadvantage (both being pawns down and having a knight effectively out of the game). This just seems to me to be a weaker move. Kingpatzer 12:14, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • I also don't like putting us into a position where we are likely to trade queens. Sure it will happen eventually, but the queen gives us a better opportunity to mate sooner, if Ze slips up. arc
    • I'm not oppossed to trading down, after all we have a winning material advantage at this point. But why lessen the pressure? Kingpatzer 12:44, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • The more up we are on material when we trade down the happier I'll be. arc
  • 27....Qxe4 28. Bf3 Qc2 wins us at least two pawns. Geedubber 14:40, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • true, but that pawn is going down after either knight move anyway. Just because we win it one move earlier than in other lines isn't necessarily making this a better line. The problem both arc and I agree on is that this move doesn't bring the knight into the game and it doesn't keep the pressure on Ze nearly as well as either of the other moves. It's not bad, we can win with this move very easily. But I think we can win easier with either of the knight moves. If I'm right (and it woulnd't be the first time I wasn't:) ) that would make this a slight inaccuracy. It's not bad, its' just less than optimal. Kingpatzer 15:02, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • just to be clear, I meant to say two pawns. first the e4 pawn, and then the c3 pawn. Geedubber
        • Trading queens is an advatage, we retake with the rook and we've won his Knight. THEN we bring the knight into the game (since he has no threat on the back rank with his queen, and his rook is on defense. ßrigaderant
          • If we trade queens we won't win his knight cause he can move Nc1, but we will still win the c3 pawn which is good enough for me. Geedubber
  • Prevents Bxc4 and Qb1 .. this is a much better move. So much so, that I'll go ahead and submit a vote for the first time in weeks. Moving out the knight is a mistake. ßrigaderant
  • To Muyfabuloso's vote comment, I haven't seen anything that would require a chess AI during this game. Your comment makes no sense. We have enough people here to go through most, if not all variations anyhow. BTW, way back when we played Nd7 the first time, it was a blunder. Brigade and I voted for it and black came out lucky because Ze could have been at least a pawn up. A better line was seen by others and rightfully so. It didn't take any kind of genius to see when a move loses a pawn. After that, I decided to pay more attention to the lines I look at. I've corrected myself on more than one occasion and so has everyone else. I don't know who your comment was directed at, but please keep broad spectrum insults to yourself. V 16:46, 6 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Any objections to continuing this argument elsewhere? - arc



Voting

  1. VOTE by sepllcehck: I like this move better because it insults the most people
  2. VOTE by Animegod: Not gonna have time to vote later on tonight so please count this as my vote.
  3. VOTE by Geedubber
  4. VOTE by ßrigaderant 05:22, 6 August 2006 (PDT)
  5. VOTE by muyfabulosotalk 11:25, 6 August 2006 (PDT): I'm tired of watching the hard chargers post computer move summaries pretending it's their own work. And a welcome back vote for Brigade. This is a solid move and with the endgame approaching, it's time to ditch the computers and play like men.

Tempting the Fates

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