From zefrank

detailed history | current 3d view

	Ze	Us	consensus
1	d4	d5	56%
2	c4	e6	66%
3	Nc3	Bb4	48%
4	Nf3	Nf6	82%
5	e3	Ne4	56%
6	Qc2	f5	62%
7	Bd3	O-O	83%
8	O-O	b6	61%
9	a3	Bxc3	57%
10	bxc3	Ba6	65%
11	Ne5	Nd7	37%
12	Nc6	Qf6	89%
13	f3	Nd6	100%
14	e4	dxc4	100%
15	Be2	e5	100%
16	d5	Nb8	55%
17	Nb4	Bb7	93%
18	a4	a5	100%
19	Na2	Nd7	50%
20	Ba3	Rac8	50%
21	Rab1	Qg5	60%
22	Kh1	fxe4	61%
23	fxe4	Qg6	89%
24	Rxf8+	Rxf8	100%
25	Bxd6	Rf2	100%
26	Rg1	cxd6	100%
27	Qd1	Nf6	73%
28	Bf3	Nxe4	93%
29	Nc1	Rd2	53%
30	Bxe4	Rxd1	100%
31	Bxg6	Rxg1+	100%
32	Kxg1	hxg6	100%
33	Resign	---

VOTING CLOSED 11:45 ET

Bb4 won the voting Mayorcj 20:44, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Final Tally

3. .. Bb4 - 14 votes

3. .. c6 - 3 votes

3. .. c5 - 1 vote

3. .. Nf6 - 11 votes

Discussion of result

Hey ze, can you add something to the wiki so that it will randomize the order of sections in a page or something? I feel like everyone reads the first move and goes "yeah, that's awesome!"

Unfortunately, I am a programmer and know how mediawiki works, for the most part, and randomizing the sections would be kind of a pain in the ass, so, probably not. Maybe bored Fabulosos can screw with the order every couple of hours for the next move. HelloMike 20:52, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Ze, see if you can add a random.php extension according to MediaWiki's instructions [[1]]. That way, we can randomize links to categories. somejeff 12:12 28 June 2006 EDT

I wish you hadn't agreed on Bb4, it's an empty bluff. Even if Ze doesnt want to lose a knight he can still ignore the situation because you advanced a bishop to threaten a piece that was already defended. The only time that will ever work is if the piece you're threatening is a queen and the player in question doesnt want to lose a queen, or if the threatening piece was something cheap.

This comment was dumpsterize because somebody believed it is wrong. Instead let's explain why this comment is wrong. One thing: we are attacking the knight to pin it down, meaning he can't take the pawn because if he moved the knight our bishop will capture the queen. --gelbi^talk 10:58, 28 June 2006 (PDT)

You mean he'd be in check, not take the queen, but it's only effective for as long as he doesn't threaten the bishop with a pawn, so unless the deadlock breaks before he does that, it doesnt help.

• Randomizing the move... I think the main bias in its favor is the length of that section, and that is partially my fault, because for me it was the most dubious move and I wanted it explained... Next time, we'll do quite short overview of the moves on the article page for the move, so each move gets an equal ammount of presentation space and we try to keep the presentations objective (yeah right... we'll try our best to keep them objective!), and we'll to the discussion of variations and then we can have more focused this vs. that discussion as well. --Gelbi^talk 08:03, 28 June 2006 (PDT)

Current Position

Contents 1 VOTING CLOSED 11:45 ET 1.1 Discussion of result 2 Current Position 3 Strategy Discussion 3.1 Bb4 - Nimzo-Indian Defense (or perverse Nimzo-slavic hybrid) 3.1.1 Voting - 14 votes 3.1.2 Possible continuation: 4. Qa4+ 3.1.3 Possible continuation: 4. a2-a3 3.1.4 Other continuations 3.2 c6 - Semi-Slav Defense 3.2.1 Voting - 3 votes 3.3 c5 - Tarrasch Defense 3.3.1 Voting - 1 vote 3.4 Nf6 -- Orthodox variation 3.4.1 Voting - 11 votes 3.5 dxc4 - Pawn takes Pawn 3.6 DISCUSSION

Our Current Position is the Queen's Gambit Declined. Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. The knight also threatens d5, how do we respond? Here is a fun chess opening explorer.

Strategy Discussion

I would try the Nimzo-Indian defense. move the pawn from C7 to C6

Allow me to put this forward: We need to keep to simple lines and basic strategy/tactics until we get through the opening. If it turns into a complex game, then we can rise to the occasion and forment proper responses, however, I have a feeling that this one will end up very bloody (i.e. many pieces traded off), in which case we should fight for position and a winning endgame. Brigade 13:13, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Both the c5 and c6 moves are purly deffensive leaving the initiative with white. I suggest we follow the Bb4 as it forces white to go on the defense and allows us time to develope more pieces. ~Mec

I strongly discourage the Bb4 move. He's not going to do Qa4+ in response, because it's so easy to stop and puts him in a very crappy spot. He'll respond with a3, and we'll either have to back out and lose a tempo or start an exchange that leaves us down a bishop with an open pawn structure. Neither of these is going to lead to a tenable attack. We should go with Tarrasch or Semi-Slav (which would be either c6 or Nf6) and wait for him to slip.

Bb4 - Nimzo-Indian Defense (or perverse Nimzo-slavic hybrid)

Ze is trying to force black to a defensive position, allowing himself the ability to setup his pieces in preperation for an attack on the center board. To disrupt his strategy, Bishop to B4 will pin his knight, forcing him to make a second move to free his knight or attack our bishop. (Seconded)

• While this isn't necessarily a valid argument by itself, might I point out that no chess master has ever seen fit to follow "3. Nc3" with "Bb4". How do I make this claim? Well, primarily because I just searched the entire listing of known opening sequences. So, I will momentarily allow myself to think, since Ze isn't allowed to right now: this could be GOOD in that there isn't any script for Ze to refer to after "3. Nc3 Bb4", or it could be BAD because, since none of the really good players have ever seen fit to use it, something must inherently be wrong with the play. Furthermore, this isn't the Nimzo-Indian defense, its some sort of perverse Nimzo-slavic hybrid. (post note, further research has yielded four tournament games where this sequence appears, however, it's obviously very rare, and white has won 3 of the games)

You need to use a better database - e.g. the opening explorer already mentioned above shows that this move has been used in 219 games, some of which have between top grandmasters - e.g. this Shirov-Lautier 1994 game - Hayne 16:37, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Actually, I have to admit, this isn't so obscure. Judit Polgar plays it, usually loses, but still... Here is a game when it grows out of a sicilian: [2]. I apologize then, I'm therefore very happy with whatever move you guys do :) --Gelbi^talk 17:15, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

• The problem with this move is that if he doesn't mind losing his knight, and makes any sort of other move, including taking our pawn with his (c4 to d5), then our taking that pawn is important, AND our bishop is a much better piece than his knight, so to take his knight would mean getting rid of our bishop, because his pawn could take it. It's not our best move.

• I don't think this is a good move for black. Ze could attack our bishop by moving his pawn from a2 to a3, and then we would be forced to capture the knight or retreat with the bishop. Retreat doesn't seem like a good option, as it just seems like a waste of our turn, and if we exchange our bishop for his knight, we don't gain any positional advantage (see speculative boards below). I just don't see the value of this move. I think Nf6, below, is much better. Lael 18:26, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Voting - 14 votes

• This is my favorite response as well. Whether he attempts to harry the bishop with the pawn or the queen, we have a strong response. I vote for Bb4. --128.61.49.42 13:25, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
• i like Bb4, also. i'm still learning, but it feels like a strong move.Ann 13:53, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

• I second, Bb4 is a sound move. All others moves so far suggested will cause us to basically lose a turn while we hunker down into a defence game. I'm not saying we need to go berserker and take position at any cost, but we cannot allow Ze to gain a turn advantage and "lap" us.
• As if it wasn't already obvious .. (i've been arguing for this line all afternoon below) this is my preferred response. :-) Brigade 15:09, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
• Bb4 sounds good to me. :)
• add one vote for Bb4!
• I especailly like the idea if the queen decides to put us in check, we can still develop a knight instead of wating a turn. B4! (that and the pinning) --Funky citrus 16:21, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
• I vote for this one too. This is the most sound move that maximises the chance of a tactical game, and that means great taunting possibilities. Pseudonym 17:15, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

• I vote for this one as well it makes it so the queen has very few choices to move without it being taken.
• It works in theory but doesn't leave us open for much, mainly because we can't take his knight, but it does force him to respond to us and start playing our game.
  • Question, is above comment a vote or just a comment? If a vote, please note this.
• I vote this move as it creates a stronger position for us.
• Bb4 is a good move. Pin the knight and trade if the bishop is threatened. This is my favorite response in this position. It is unlikely he will pull out QA4 but if he does... hehehehe (kumar)
• I vote against Bb4 because the best we can get out of it is an exchange that doubles his pawn. Meanwhile, he will have developed a wicked bishop attack on our king side and our little piglet will suck hind teat.
• I somewhat agree with this move. I believe the best way is to play defensively. Perhaps you could move Bd6. It might keep the bishop a bit safer. Murry 21:48, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Possible continuation: 4. Qa4+

What about the probable response 4. Qa4+, I don't know this path... --Gelbi^talk 12:55, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

• This is the kind of move I would make, and as an amateur would get soundly trounced for it. Gelbi^talk is right on the money. Almost any scenario forces us to spend turns retreating the bishop to a more tenable position. However, I'm interested in hearing thoughts on 4. Qa4+ Nc6? Obvious response seems to be 5. a2-a3, back to square one. --Medwards 13:19, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
• 4. Qa4+ Nc6 .. covers the bishop, free development of our Knight, and his Queen Knight is still pinned. Bb4 is the proper line. Suckling teat, indeed .. Brigade 13:08, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • And in response I would say 4. ... a2-a3, what happens next Brigade? medwards^talk
    • See below. Way ahead of ya. (Assuming you meant white to move a3, since black can't move a pawn from a2-a3.)  :-)
      • No, the text below talks about a2-a3 as the INITIAL response to the intrusion of our bishop. I'm talking about supplementary to the Queen forcing the knight out. See: 4. Qa4+ Nc6 5. a2-a3 ??? 6. Qxb4. What happens in ???, putting c7-c5 seems alright but it feels like there will be too many powderkegs on the board. (see picture "after the exchange")

• 5. a3 Bxc6 .. his pawns will be as below except our knight is developed and his queen is on the board.

• Then b7 b5.

• Loses the bishop to Qxb4

• Then Nxb4

Speculative Board position 3. .. Bb4 4. Qa4+ Nc6

After the Exchange 3. .. Bb4 4. Qa4+ Nc6 5. a3 Bxc3 6. bxc3

Possible continuation: 4. a2-a3

He does not have to move Qa4+ to threaten the Bb4 move, he could simply move a2 to a3. We could still cover with Nc6, but then he could force us to use a knight and a bishop to hold down one of his knights, which doesn't sound like a great exchange to me. We could also respond with a7 to a5, but I'll admit I'm not sure where that would lead.

• a5 would look like this: 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. a3 a5 5. axb4 (what's the point of covering if you can't recapture) axb4 6. Rxa8 (and we either lose another piece or have stuff pinned at the back, depending on how wily Ze is). If we cover with Nc6: 5. axb4 Nxb4 opens his rook. (reid)
• Here's the line you're proposing: 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. a3 Bxc3 5. bxc3 and will end up destroying his Queenside pawns, and double his pawns on the C rank. If you can't visualize it, I'll throw up another board someplace for you to take a look. Trust us, Bb4 is the move. Brigade 13:19, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

-> 5. bxc3 (?) 6. cxd5 and his problem goes away. Taking out this many pawns also means we'll probably miss that bishop more than he'll miss his knight. (reid)

• Here is an example of this sequence usedin a tournament. [3] (second game down). White doesn't seem much troubled by the stacked pawns, in fact uses them to great effect to clear the center of the board.--Salamander 14:31, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

• That sequence is 4. Nf3 not 4. a3 .. but to answer your question after 4. Nf3 Nc6, developing another piece and preparing to castle .. playing c5 is risky and didn't pay off. Whomever was playing black was playing recklessly in that game. (6. .. Qc7 was the nail in the coffin for him, lost a pawn on that move) Brigade

• another example, again second game down. White wins again. [4]--Salamander 14:39, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

• That game was lost in the endgame after black lost a pawn on move 27 (Rxg6) and his endgame fell apart .. up until then it was an even game (material wise) .. Black lost that on on position.

• I don't think this is a sound departure from common opening lines. Especially looking at these pictures. We have exchanged our bishop for a knight in a very open board. At any time he can exchange the pawn which means he has in effect exchanged his b pawn for a central pawn. This is against my positional intuition. --Gelbi^talk 16:09, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Other continuations

There are some less aggressive options where white just continues to develop and increases its hold on the center... they all look pretty solid (I meant mainly for white, but it's not that bad for black either).

3. .. Bb4 4. Nf3

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