Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move7

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting Closed

  • Also don't forget to contribute to the taunt to be delivered with the move.
  • Thank you all for your patience and contributions throughout the day.

Final Tally:

7. Bd3 O-O - 10 Votes
7. Bd3 b6 - 1 Vote
7. Bd3 g5 - 1 Vote

Thursday's Suggested Moves will be posted after Ze's broadcast, and the voting polls will open @7PM EST and close at 12AM EST, in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast.

Strategy Discussion

Current board position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last move: 7. Bd3

Contents


Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. The c3 knight no longer threatens d5, as our b4 Bishop has it pinned to his king. We have also advanced our Knight to f3 in preparation to possibly assault Ze's position, and fortified it with our pawns at d5 and f5. Ze has advanced his Bishop to d3, in preparation to castle, and simultaneously threatening our Knight, which is covered by our pawns at f5 and d5.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigaderant

  • What do we think Ze is doing with the bishop? Is he just moving it so he can castle or does he have SOME SORT OF DEVIOUS SCHEME AFOOT? Discuss. He who says zonk 11:36, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I think he's moving it so he can castle, which also unpins his knight. None of the suggested moves so far seem to address that point. What about Nd7 10. O-O Nf6? This provides one more layer of protection on the square e4. Otherwise, he could decimate our pawn structure and take that knight in exchange for a bishop and a knight.

--dmatos

  • I agree. And when white does castle, he will be able to do cxd5 w/o black being able to recapture with the queen. This will leave black with a semi-isolated f-pawn, an exposed kingside and underdeveloped pieces. For black to castle on this move seems pretty safe but what's next? Either Bxc3 which gives up the good bishop or c6 which cramps the queenside development. I think these can be done in either before or after castling so perhaps it would be good to discuss them now? IMHO, c6 is the better direction to take because the dark-squared bishop will be very helpful for attacking white's kingside in the future. --Jeff
  • If Ze does unpin his knight, what happens if we respond with BxN? He ends up with a half-open row, but it's on our undeveloped side. I suspect that b6 might be our best counter to that now. -- Pseudonym 16:42, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  • If I were him I would move Bd2 unpinning the knight, thus making the position look alot different. It would also allow castleing on either side for him. He could just wait till we get some kind of coherent attack going and then decide which side to castle on. Oh the speculation...SalMancini
  • I'm not sure how to add suggested moves so I'm doing it here -- Ba5, Be7 and a6 are all worthy of analysis at this point Kingpatzer 14:53, 5 July 2006 (PDT)


Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Pawn advance: 7. Bd3 c5
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Fianchetto? 7. Bd3 b6
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Push Pawn? 7. Bd3 c6
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
7. Bd3 g5
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
7. Bd3 Qd6
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
7. Bd3 Bd7

c5

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Not Quite Tarrasch: 7. Bd3 c5
  • I bet I sound like a broken record. Things are getting pretty intense in the middle and I'd like to let the queen have access to the entire board, not just d-h. medwardstalk
    • I think a big question is do we care to respond to his bishop attack against the knight? I don't think we need to bother all that much, and can continue to develop if we're willing to trade our knight for his bishop and recover with our pawns. -arcblah
      • Precisely, I feel like this situation is still very tenuous and if we can spend more time developing without sacrificing pieces, I say do it. (This means almost any non-capturing move has my support at this point) medwardstalk
        • I think there were pretty convincing arguments presented in the move6 section against this. An a3 moves puts us in quite a spot. I'd like to get more pieces in the center because we're outnumbered there, but I don't think this is the move to do that with.-arcblah
      • We need to keep our pawns chained together .. pushing to c5 (for one thing, isn't Tarrasch) and will cost us in the endgame/middlegame. Plus, our Queen is pointed where she needs to be, towards his Kingside. ßrigaderant 11:52, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
      • c5 isn't particularly good for black. after a3 we're forced to trade bishop for knight, which isn't bad in a closed position, but the pawns are placed such that white can open up the board anytime he chooses. This will give his bishops good lines and let them become very powerfull. Kingpatzer 12:56, 5 July 2006 (PDT) 12:55, 5 July 2006 (PDT)


Voting

  • Cut and paste the following to vote for a section:
# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 



0-0

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Castle King-side: 7. Bd3 0-0
  • Castling king-side puts us in a better defensive position, and gets our rook out of the corner and into somewhere more useful. Ze's bishop doesn't really change the situation in the center (other than making it a bit more volatile), but it does allow him to castle... it seems like now is a good time for us to do so as well.
  • His Bd3 advance suggests he's going to castle kingside next move. He doesn't have a reasonable attack/exchange yet, so this would be a good time to castle ourselves, so that we can maintain tempo and initiative. Also, it completely locks up the kingside for us (until Ze exchanges out). Better for us to castle first, before Ze does, then use our move next turn to bring more forces to bear and/or strike into his position. ßrigaderant 11:59, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  • This is my vote, but I'd like to see some actual analysis at this point. if 7. ... 0-0 what are white's options? I see several reasonable moves: Kingpatzer 12:56, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 8. a3 -- this is probably white's strongest response, when we can choose to retreat the bishop, take the knight, or take the c-pawn. We don't want to play NxB but in any of these lines cxd5 is going to happen sooner or later, and the resulting pawn structure for black will mean we have to advance c6 at some point. Probably best would be 8. a3 Bxc3+ 9. bxc3 c6 10. 0-0 b6 11. Ne5 Ba6 when white may have a bit more space, but black is exerting strong pressure on white's pawn structure. This game was played up to move 9 in 1950 by a few Castillo-Poulsen. White won that game, but I think that black's play in that game can be improved upon. Kingpatzer 12:56, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 8. Bd2 -- this seems reasonable to me, but isn't something that appears in my database. 8. ... Nxd2 9. Qxd2 c6 10. 0-0 Nd7 looks perfectly playable to me. Kingpatzer 12:56, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 8. cxd5 -- also is not in my database. But isn't something we need to fear. both Bxc3+ and exd5 are playable here. 8. ... Bxc3+ 9. bxc3 exd5 10. c4 Be6 11. 0-0 Nc6 and we're fine Kingpatzer 12:56, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 8. 0-0 -- This position has happened several times in the past. The line 8. ... c6 9. Ne5 has been played to a draw more than once. Nothing to fear here either. Kingpatzer 12:56, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 8. Qb3 -- This move looks reasonable to me, but when I start going down lines, I see nothing particularly scary about it. 8. ... c5 9. 0-0 Nc6 10. cxd5 Na5 11. Qc2 exd5 is perfectly acceptable. If white plays dxc our pieces will be well positioned to turn the coming isolani into a battering ram on white's position. Kingpatzer 12:56, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Just to play devil's advocate, I don't know that we need to castle right now, or castle king side at all. Since it looks likely Ze will castle, I'd like to see us start attacking that side of the board (see g5 below). In that case, having the rook on the h file isn't a bad thing, and may do us more good than moving it to the center.bobbie_macrap at me
      • "attacking?" We've got 5 undeveloped pieces and aren't castled. We are in no position at all to talk about attack at this stage of the game. We're not even half-way through the opening. Save attacking ideas for when we have pieces to attack with :) Kingpatzer 13:29, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
        • About the only benefit of castling is that it would make any attempt by Ze to trade off our knight at f5 to be suicide, because our rook would already be on what would then become a half-open row. If we want to strike the first blow, we need to develop queenside now. -- Pseudonym 16:30, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I'll admit, I'm rusty. But we seem to be doing OK with the half of the board we have out. Castling now doesn't get any Queenside pieces out any faster, but getting that knight out of the way will. (my humble opinion)  : )bobbie_macrap at me
      • sorry but getting what knight out of the way? We have two basic goals at this stage of the game, develop and defend. We want to get our pieces out on the best squares available to them for manouvering in the middle game while at the same time preventing giving our adversary any easy targets. Castling does part of that. It removes the king as a target AND it develops our rook. Two for the price of one! Unless there's a move out there that presents a clear advantage at this point (and currently there is not) then this is not only safest, it's also the most offensively minded.
  • One of the top two choice we have Geedubber 15:30, 5 July 2006 (PDT)

Voting

  1. VOTE by Reagank 16:43, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  2. VOTE by Kingpatzer 16:53, 5 July 2006 (PDT):
  3. VOTE by Wophugus
  4. VOTE by ßrigaderant 18:33, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  5. VOTE by Graymon
  6. VOTE by Geedubber 19:15, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  7. VOTE by Wingnut 19:40, 5 July 2006 (PDT) - My first vote of the game!
  8. VOTE by PT Whipplebang: This makes the most sense to me.
  9. VOTE by Bairdsy: This looks to be the safest move available and we arent really in the best position to attack yet.
  10. VOTE by SalMancini: Yeah this makes too much damn sense. It just might be the right time to castle. Great analysis guys!


b6

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
7. Bd3 b6
  • This doesn't work because of 8. Q4, costing us the Bishop
    • Read the last move discussion Nc6 covers the bishop, cancels check, freely develops the Knight, and if he was going to use (the inneffective) Qa4+ he would have done it instead of Qc2. ßrigaderant 11:54, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Ok, I Read the last move discussion. 8. Q4+ Nc6 9.Qxc6 Bd7 10.Qb7 ? Shadowcrash 12:09, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
        • He'd never do it (he's playing way too smart) .. but 10. Qb7, a5 11. ?? Nd6 would take his queen clean (barring any other threat/sacrifice on his part to save her). ßrigaderant
      • I read the discussion as well. 8. Qa4+! and black must lose material. Kingpatzer 14:20, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
        • What about 8. Qa4+ Nc6 9. Ne5 ? He has a pinned knight in the crosshairs and attacks d7. Our bishop at B4 is in a world of hurt. 9... Bd7 or Bb7 results in 10. Nxc6 Bxc6 11. Qxb4 OR even Qxc6+ forking the rook forcing us to either move the King or exchange queens (and still forcing us to move the King). This is a bad move and will result in nothing but material advantage for ze.
  • I like this move, as Bb7 in the next move covers the e4 square, which appears to be where Ze is focusing his attack.
    • Uh .. what attack? Ze's on the defensive. e4 is a possible outpost for his knight, but he won't use it yet (defending g5 and h4 from our Queen) .. and from there he has no move .. however .. looking at b6 .. it exposes us to a liability. If Ze pushes his pawn to c6 next move, our Bishop is completely cut off and lost (8. c4; 9. a3) forcing us to trade it off or lose it entirely. ßrigaderant
      • If he completes the castle, his bishop, knight, and queen are all aimed at e4. Kxe4, dxe4, Bxe4, fxe4, Qxe4 and our pawn structure is gone, Ze controls the middle of the board, and still has a strong defensive base to strike out from. Please correct me if I'm wrong (but be gentle :) )
        • give us a specific set of moves. 7. ... b6 then what? I see immediate losage after 8. Qa4+ 9. Nc6 is best but still sucks, everything loses at least a piece. You can't win a piece down in the opening, generally speaking
  • I like it for the same reasons I voiced last time, "mmmm fianchettoey. i like this move. it opens up our light bishop which is restricted at the moment" I think we will probably do this move eventually. and it also will give us the eventual option of queenside castle Geedubber 15:22, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • in this opening a fianchetto doesn't do much good, but a B on a6 is actually rather usefull in some lines. But with the board position as it stands now this move at this time loses a piece for black!!!! 8. Qa4+ and there's no escape.
      • no... there is an escape. if you read the discussion above, Nc6 keeps us safe, and sets up a possible trap.
  • I like this one too. We need to open up queenside now, and this seems the best way. -- Pseudonym 16:34, 5 July 2006 (PDT)


Voting

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# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 
  1. VOTE by Pseudonym 19:57, 5 July 2006 (PDT): Need to develop queenside, this seems best.


c6

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
7. Bd3 b6
  • It cripples our Queenside pieces (Knight has only a6 or d7, Bishop only d7, and both block our queen from protecting our d5 pawn) .. waiting to hear an opinion from whomever suggested the move. ßrigaderant
    • agreed. This is rather restrictive play
    • yeah it would make mobilizing the queenside abit more complicated
    • I don't get it either Geedubber 15:11, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I think this is actually a good move. It's not imperative for black to do it this move but after white castles (which I believe he will do next move), black will have to choose between playing c6, trading the dark-squared bishop for the knight or having a hard-to-defend f-pawn (9. cxd5 exd5). I think keeping the dark-squared bishop is the right choice. Even if it doesn't happen this move, I want to start lobbying for c6 now :-) --Jeff.
    • I agree that it may be a necessary move at some point. However, I don't think it's ideal and don't think we want to do it voluntarily when there are other productive moves to consider. I have no fear of this move if it becomes necessary to play it. But I don't think it's a usefull prophalactic advance. After all, we may decide we do want it to go to c5, in which case by moving it to c6 first we have wasted a tempo. Kingpatzer 18:21, 5 July 2006 (PDT)


Voting

  • Cut and paste the following to vote for a section:
# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 


g5

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
7. Bd3 g5
  • I like this because it let's us attack his knight one move later unless he addresses it. If he decides to do Nxg5 we can counter with Nxg5 or Qxg5 and our pawn at f5 is still protected and prevents an attack on h7.bobbie_macrap at me
    • It also forces us to castle queenside .. and our reply is Qxg5 .. but he won't take the pawn. It's aggressive, strikes into his position (he has to castle to that side) .. I like it except we're putting castling off for at least 3 moves (to clear out the Queen, Knight, and Bishop on our Queenside) .. and that's the side his pawns are pointing at .. great idea .. but I think it's a tad reckless. ßrigaderant
      • I don't see castling as a goal yet. We're in a position to press and I think we should keep careful pressure on. If we can get that knight or force it to retreat It opens that side of the board for attacks by our queen and light bishop. We may never need to castle. Our king also has a ton of room to run if need be.bobbie_macrap at me
        • We are in no position to press anything. Most lower ranked chess players lose games because they are overly agressive, and this is a perfect example of that. Give black after g5 to Gary Kasparov and white to a randomly selected FM and black is still going to struggle. You can't weaken your own position on the hope that your opposition will be stupid. You have to assume they'll make the best move on the board, not the worst. Kingpatzer 13:35, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
        • I think this opens up the board a little too much as makes our king side pretty weak. It's good to get our pieces on his side of the board, but this move isn't a very legitimate attack. It's pretty easy to counter, might force his knight into a better position than it currently is, and when all is said and done doesn't leave us with a very solid pawn structure. I'm just playing devil's advocate here though, so please disprove me. -arc
  • this strikes me as a blunder. As Brigade notes, we're going to have to castle queen side, but after 8. Ne5 how do we get there? If 8. ... Bb7 9. Qb3 and black is instantly worse. If 8. ... Nd7 9. NxN BxN 10. Qb3 and again, black is worse. Maybe best is 8. ... c6 but then 9. cxd5 exd5 10. f3 and I don't see where black is going to come out on top. Kingpatzer 13:26, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  • My goal with this is to pressure the knight at f3, which is protecting the squares at g5 and h4. What are the responses?
- Nxg5 Qxg5- a bad response from ze...a pawn knight exchange with our queen in position to attack his king side.
- Ne5 - possibly the strongest response, but it doesn't attack any of our pieces immediately
- O-O - this lets us attack the knight at f3 with g4. Even if the knight escapes, we've developed our pawn structure on that side of the board.
- g4 - this would block us from attacking the knight at f3, but you folks clamoring for us to castle should love this response because it keeps ze from castling for at least one move and breaks up the fortress he would have if he does castle king side.
I'm sure there are responses I haven't anticipated, but that's why we're talking. See what you would do if you were Ze and tell me if you don't like this move.bobbie_macrap at me
    • Ne5 (K = king usually) is not just his strongest response, it's a devistating positional advantage. The question to ask isn't what does he do next? But what do we do next? What's our plan. You had the short term goal to pressure this knight to move from an innocuous spot where it wasn't bothering us at all to a strong outpost in our territory. To do that you made a huge positional concession in weakening the king pawn structure. Now what? c6? 0-0? Be7? any of those and cxd5 begins the to obliterate black's game. Maybe you envision 8. ... Nd7 9. NxN BxN 10. 0-0 but where's the follow up? Black is still positionally busted and white has a field of targets! A move needs to be more than a temporary threat. Kingpatzer 14:05, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Ne5 is the most troubling move since it can attack c6, d7, f7 and g6. However, the knight can't move to any of those squares right away without being captured. Some thoughts I have:
- We could continue moving forward with the g file pawn and move the queen out to g5 or h4.
- We could advance the h file pawn to try and break up his pawns king side.
- Reacting to the knight on e5 is the weakest choice IMHO, but if it really bothers you we can try c5 followed by Qd6.
By the way, I enjoy your arguments and you may be totally right. Tell me, what would you try as Ze if you went Ne5 and Black responded by advancing pawns on g or h?bobbie_macrap at me
    • if 7. ... g5 8. Ne5 the immediate concern is that Qa4+ can result in the loss of material if not addressed. So you are more or less forced to a few choices:
- 8. ... c6 9. cxd5 exd5 10. f3 and black is just being forced to react to white there's no point along this analysis for you to push that g or h pawn. you're just busted
- 8. ... Nd7 9. Nd7 Qxd7 10. 0-0 c6 (to avoid the foced queen exchange) and white is more than fine.
- 8. ... Be7 9. cxd5 exd5 10. Qd1 (threatening Qh5+) and black is in trouble already
- 8. ... Bd6 9. cxd5 exd5 10. Nxd5 Bxe5 11. Bxe4 fxe4 12. Qxe4 and black is down material
- Look, if you can show me a line that is considering the best moves for each side that shows that g5 isn't a losing blunder, I'd love to see it. But you're giving me nothing but assertions, give me the moves that make your dream a reality. Kingpatzer 14:41, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
  • OK...I've looked at it several ways now and I agree with you...this probably isn't the best move. But this talk has made me realize that Ne5 is a problem no matter what we do. I've even played a couple of lines starting with c5 to attack the pawn at d4 that would protect Ne5...but it doesn't matter. Black goes down a piece in the first four lines I tried. We'll have to deal with this regardless, I think.bobbie_macrap at me


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  1. VOTE by bobbie_macrap at me 18:45, 5 July 2006 (PDT): Changed my mind again. This is flawed, but no worse than the other options IMO. We can't stop Ne5 if he wants to do it. I think this will give us the best chance to get at his king side pawns and maybe even clear a path to queen a pawn later on.


Qd6

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
7. Bd3 Qd6
  • this looks very good for white to me. 8. 0-0 c6 9. a3 Ba5 10. Bd2 Nxd2 11. Qxd2 0-0 12. b4 for example looks to give white a fair advantage. 8. cd ed 9. a3 Bxc3+ 10. bxc3 0-0 is also fine for white. This move doesn't address the board, I'm not even sure it's intent. Why would black want to do this? what's the plan? Kingpatzer 15:33, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Don't forget 8. or 9. c5 .. free move for Ze that further cements his position, and it forces us to lose tempo moving our Queen back. ßrigaderant


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Nd7

Nd7 followed by Nf6 backing up our knight at e4.

Current board position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last move: 7. Bd3
  • the point of this move is development, and it's a solid, flexible square for the knight. But the idea that it will "back up" the e4 knight is misguided. Knights are usually (caveats are necessary since every chess "rule" has exceptions) most powerful when they are not on each other's immediate path. A more interesting plan is that the knight might go to b6 where it can put additional pressure on the c4 pawn. But ultimately, where we would go with this knight depends on what white does:
- 8. cxd5 exd5 9. Bd2 Nxd2 10. Nxd2 c6 11. Bxf5 Nf6 12. 0-0 0-0 13. Nf3 BxB 14. QxB and while black is down a pawn, we have good chances due in no small part to the fact that our dark squared bishop is unhindered by any of our pawns, and white's knights knights have no good posts. It'd be a long way to a win, but a draw is a real possibility here.
- 8. a3 Bxc3+ 9. bxc3 0-0 10. cxd5 exd5 11. c4 c5 and it looks ok. This is a very sharp position and will require some deep analysis to not go wrong.
- 8. Bd2 Nxd2 9. Nxd2 dxc4 10. Nxc4 0-0 11. 0-0 Be7 and the weakness of black's pawn structure starts becoming obvious. This looks like a very hard position for black to play from.
- 8. Qb3 a5 9. 0-0 c6 10. Bd2 0-0 11. cxd5 cxd5 12. Rac1 Ndf6 13. a3 Bd6 and it's a very even game heading into the middle game
- the worst thing I see on this line is the 8. Bd2 line. There are lots of places for both sides to deviate in long lines, of course. Starting with 9. I'm not sure if Nxd2 or Qxd2 is better. But all in all this seems a tough line to play. Given this, I have a hard to preferring this line to other moves such as 7. ... 0-0 however, it's playable. It'll just be a hard game. We'll be fighting for a draw most of the way Kingpatzer 18:41, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
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