Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move8

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detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting Closed @ 12:00 EDT (stupid time change)

  • Also don't forget to contribute to the taunt to be delivered with the move.
  • Thank you all for your patience and contributions throughout the day.

Final Tally:

8. O-O b6 - 14 Votes
8. O-O c6 - 9 Votes

Friday's Suggested Moves will be posted after Ze's broadcast, and the voting polls will open @7PM EDT and close at 12AM EDT, in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. If you have a move to suggest, you will see sections on the page that look like this:

<!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

<!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

<!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

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Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name in the ==Subject Heading==.

DOUBLE-CHECK YOUR BOARDS WITH THE PREVIEW CHANGES BUTTON BEFORE YOU SUBMIT!

Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

  • Cut and paste the following to vote:
# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 
  • Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here

Strategy Discussion

Current Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last Move: 8. 0-0

Contents


Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. Ze has castled, so the c3 knight threatens d5 (protected by e6 and our queen) and our knight on e4 (protected by d5 and f5). We have also advanced our Knight to f3 in preparation to possibly assault Ze's position. Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegametactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigaderant

One thing to consider when suggesting a move is that in the middlegame, a move needs to have a plan behind it. Try to give justification for a move in a speculative set of moves. What is the best response? What happens after that? What are the strategic goals (how will the pieces be deployed at the end of the sequence of moves you envision?) And what tactics will make it possible (what are the exact moves that will get there?) Successfull middlegame play requires analysis of each move. You don't have to do this to suggest a move. But the more insight you provide into your reasoning for considering an idea, the more focused the analysis that happens for that move can be. Kingpatzer

Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 8. O-O c6
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 8. O-O Bxc3
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 8. 0-0 Nc6
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 8. 0-0 Nxc3
Speculative Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 8. 0-0 Ng5
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 8. O-O b6
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 8. O-O Qe8
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 8. O-O Kh8


c6


Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
After 8. 0-0 c6
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
After 8. .. c6 9. c5
  • solidifies center and takes the sting out of a future Ne5 move by white Kingpatzer 11:43, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Also, btw, a move that occurs several times in my database of GM games with good results Kingpatzer 14:40, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • bottles up our knight and bishop in order to provide a bit of pawn support.
    • actually this frees up the bishop to attack white's C pawn via Ba6 -- a common enough theme in games with this type of structure
  • I don't see a time loss here. I actually see problems with our structure that I'm trying to address. Possible response lines:
- 9. Ne2 Bd6 10. b3 Qf6 11. a4 b6 and we've covered our glaring weaknesses, solidified our pawn structure, and now we can start doing things like Ba6 (attacking c5) and Nd7-g6
- 9. Bd2 Bd6 10. Ne2 b6 looks reasonable, but also 9. ... Nxd2 10. Qxd2 Nd7 11. Qc2 Nf6 is a good posiiblity
- 9. a3 Bd6 10. b4 b6 and we're solid and ready to play either Ba6 or Nd7 as the next choice by white dictates
- in all these lines black is fine. We have a solid, active position with lots of choices on how to respond to white. We're maintaining our space and addressing structural weaknesses. We aren't creating weaknesses on the premise of attack. Remember, you can only attack in chess when your opponent has made a mistake. So far, ze's position is free from weaknesses we can target, so we want to remain solid but fluid. This does that. It allows us to attack c4 with the bishop, it allows us to play the knight into b4 if that oporuntity presents itself, it supports using the e & f pawns as weapons if the chance arises. Kingpatzer 12:56, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Only problem I have with your potential lines is you're guessing Ze's response on move 10 .. and those are all weak responses. The best move for him would be 9. c5 and we lose a move trading our bishop, while he has a stranglehold on the center. If we move our bishop, we CANNOT move to Bd6 while his pawn is a threat. ßrigaderant
    • 9. Bd2 Bd6 10. c5 is good for black We should be very happy if white decides to weaken his pawn chain by over-advancing and locking up the position. That reduces possibilities for Ze and worsens his position while doing nothing bad to us. In a closed board tempo isn't everything -- and is certainly worth far less than having a good pawn lever in the center. Continueing: 10. ... Bc7 11. Ne2 (b4 is possible but good for us) Nd7 12. Nf4 Qe7 13. Bb4 e5 14. dxe5 Nxe5 15. Nx35 Bxe5 16.f3 Ng5 and black has a significant advantage given that white can't possibly support that c5 pawn all game. Kingpatzer 13:16, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
      • How is c5 good for black? We'll have NO pieces on the left side of the board, and he's completely locked us out from attacking his Queenside! He can advance pieces and/or pawns to shore up his defenses and take us apart slowly! Also remember that we HAVE to trade off our bishop for his knight, or we'll lose it to a3 and b4. You are assuming that Ze will move Bd2 .. this board is what his best response would be .. take a look.ßrigaderant
        • because after 10. c5 white's pawns are immobile he has no way to leverage open the center using his pawns. Because we ARE under-developed this is to our benefit and to white's detriment. It is at best drawish chess and it fails to take advantage of his best features. And the head of the pawn chain is a target we can attack with a future b6 at a time of our choosing. After 10. c5 Bc7 black is solidly positioned and white is without a paln. His pieces are positioned for center or queen-side play but there are no targets for him to play against. He has to waste far more than a single tempo either enticing us to open up the queen side to give him targets or manuvouring to the king side. In either case, it's to our advantage. Go play over a few master level d4 games and you'll notice that white almost never advances c5. There's a reason. It's a bad move for white. Kingpatzer 13:47, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
          • Oh really? I'm ranked USCF 1600 with over 100 tournament games .. what's your experience, now that you're calling mine into question? In fact, I'd love to play you in a game .. no computer analysis .. just stand-up chess. Hit up the chess lobby and take one of the arenas over, I'll even let you have white. ßrigaderant
            • I'm not calling your experience into question. I'm pointing out that there's a reason that that move is not played in these positions. I'm suggesting you go look at a collection of d-pawn games played by good players (good here is significantly higher than 1600, btw) and you'll notice that that move doesn't happen very often. There's a reason. Kingpatzer 06:45, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
            • Alright .. how many games between "good" players can you dig up with this EXACT position to compare it to? Not computer analysis, mind you, but documented games? Give me an example of this, and the exact response. You can't apply a generalization without it applying to the same specific circumstance. "... go look at a collection of d-pawn games ... and you'll notice that that move doesn't happen very often .." .. your logic is flawed. ßrigaderant
        • if white plays an immediate 9. c5 (instead of 9. Bd2 Bd6 10. c5) it's GREAT for black. Now, an immedate 9. ... b6 puts white in a bind. he doesn't want to have to deal with isolated pawns so he more or less has to capture with 10. cxb when 10. ... axb gives our rook access to the Queenside, making a future Ba6 even stronger. Moreover, now we can play c5 when the end result is that black has gained more space than white, and it will result in black getting the upper hand. Kingpatzer 13:57, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Attack the head of the pawn chain? What chess have you studied? It's common knowledge that you take a pawn chain apart where it's weakest .. the base of the chain. We don't WANT him to have a strong pawn chain, it kills us in the endgame (and it'll be an uphill battle trying to prevent him from queening his pawns) .. ßrigaderant
  • Um yes, in some situations, particularly when the chain is well advanced, attacking the head of the pawn chain is perfectly normative play. Chess knowledge has advanced a bit since Nimzo's book. Go read some of Drazen Marovic's books on pawn play. Kingpatzer 06:45, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • specific line: 9. c5 b6 10. cxb6 (else bxc6) axb6 11. Ne5 Bd6 12. f4 c5
  • I like what this does for pawn structure. What if the next move is 9. Ne5? How does this "take the sting" out of that?
    • if 9. Ne5 Nd7 10. f4 Nxe5 11. fxe5 b6 12. Bxe4 dxe4 and black is in a very solid position.
  • I think 9. Bd2 is a fairly likely response by White. Black would then be wise to pull back to Bd6 or Be7. --Jeff
  • I might not be around come voting time, so this is my vote please. Kingpatzer 16:07, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I also can't be here after 7...but I like this one due to the quick way it gets back to a strong pawn structure. Put me down for this one when the votes open, please.bobbie_macrap at me
  • Ok .. here's a line for you: 8. .. c6 9. a3 Bxc3 10. bxc3 Nd7 how does that look for Black? Take it a few steps further .. 11. Nd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 dxc4 .. it's an ugly, uphill game that White owns. c6 is a losing move unless Ze makes a blunder. ßrigaderant
    • Bxc3 is the wrong response to a3. Bd6 is much better. We still want to keep that bishop. And yeah, it is something of an uphill battle for Black. It has been ever since Ne4. f5 didn't help matters. --Jeff
      • That's my point. If he moves c5, we have no choice but to exchange off the bishop. Bd6 won't be an option there. I'm not suggesting that his next move will be a3 .. he'll lock down the bishop before he threatens to take it. He might even Bd2 before advancing c5. ßrigaderant
        • I thought we'd already established that c5 is great for Black. White response to c6 will be either Bd2 or a3. Oh well, it looks like the lemmings are jumping off the b6 cliff so we'll soon see what a horrible mistake that is. --Jeff
          • No .. that was one person's opinion that 'c5 is great for Black' .. and you don't know what white's response will be (I don't remember seeing 'Ne5' anywhere for white's next move, which is the 'book' move) .. and referring to the fabulosos as 'lemmings' is not necessary. ßrigaderant
            • Are you even reading Kingpatzer's analysis? 9. c5 b6 (but you're right, calling all the b6 voters "lemmings" was not necessary). Jeff
            • Oh wait, sorry, I misread your comment. 9. Ne5 Nd7 seems better for Black than 9. a3 Bd6. Why do you call it a 'book' move? Jeff
              • Because that's what a computer will spit out at you .. computers focus completely on positional advantages, without taking 'tactical vision' into account. Most of their database is based off of tons of chess games between masters .. i.e. 'Book Moves' .. a computer calculates numbers and churns data without honest 'analysis.' It's hard to justify a position like this because it doesn't derive from standard GM/IM or computer play .. if you can find me one official game with this exact position (in and of itself a feat), then I guarantee you that it will deviate at some point within 3 moves (unless each move is forced). Ne5 is a safe, conventional move from the 'old school' of chess, and doesn't take into account more modern considerations, like controlling space instead of occupying space. Take two players in a tournament game ranked similiarly: A 'book' player (usually really good kids) and a 'street' player (Like a Washington Square bum or an older player who hasn't read as much) .. all things being equal, once the game deviates from standard lines of analysis (which it will), the streetsmart player will take the book player apart in the endgame with the slight gains that might be overlooked in the middlegame. That's why you'll find tons of books on endgame and opening strategy, but multitudes more about tactics. Opening and Ending are not really very fluid there are hard and fast rules to obey .. but the middlegame is completely fluid, and require a lot more vision (due to the increased variables and variation). ßrigaderant
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
After 8. .. c6 9. a3 Bd6

Voting

  1. VOTE by Jeff: by far the safest move for black!
  2. VOTE by AnonHC 16:41, 6 July 2006 (PDT) : Kingpatzer, if I ever play chess against you Im probably going to get my clock very strongly cleaned. I nominate you for honorable mention in the league of awesomeness for your strong chess analysis! Are us fabulosos allowed to do that? -AnonHC
  3. VOTE by Kingpatzer 16:41, 6 July 2006 (PDT) : per the comment of this section, text added by AnonHC
  4. VOTE by 64.231.133.110 : this is the most balanced move. P.S. how do I create a user name? I can play some chess but I'm a weak wikier...- NOTE: At the top right of the wiki window, you should see a 'log in' link .. click that and you can create a user id. ßrigaderant
  5. VOTE by bobbie_macrap at me
  6. VOTE by Wophugus
  7. VOTE by Reagank 18:22, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  8. VOTE by Thebigjc 19:08, 6 July 2006 (PDT). Clearly the superior move for protecting the center and opening the queen.
  9. VOTE by SalMancini looks good to me


b6

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Suggested Move: 8. O-O b6
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculation by Jeff: 9. cxd5 Bxc3 10. bxc3 exd5 11. Ba3 Re8 12. c4
  • This one has been discussed ad naseum, but now Qa4 no longer puts us in check. This gives our light bishop a little more freedom, doesn't block our dark bishop's movement, still allows us to do Nc6 in a later move if we want and will strengthen c5 if we eventually make that move.
    • Stole the words out of my digits, except you made them sound more eloquent. Funky citrus 13:23, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I was leaning more towards developing our Knight, but you're right .. this is a very nice move .. and effective use of our 'free move' (since Ze castled) .. I'm inclined to go with this one at this point unless I see some really convincing arguements to the contrary. ßrigaderant
  • 9. cxd5 Bxc3 10. bxc3 exd5 11. c4 Be6 12 cxd5 Bxd5 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. Bb2 and now what? black isn't bad, but he's passive and un-coordinated and white's set to play all over the board. This isn't a bad move per se, but it lets' white sit in teh driver's seat for the next 10 moves at least. Kingpatzer 14:06, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
    • You're entire theory resides on cxd5 .. you need to evaluate other moves .. every line you've analyzed has assumed that Ze will move cxd5 .. when there are other more likely alternatives. ßrigaderant
      • I'm looking at alternatives. I'm merely coming back to the best moves for white. Give me a superior line for white if you don't like the one's I'm posting. But frankly, I'm giving lines not making assertions. To show a move is bad all I have to do is show one forcing line that ends with black worse off than when he started. 9. cxd5 is forcing, black has to respond, and it ends giving black a real struggle for the draw. Kingpatzer 14:51, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
        • Alright .. here's an alternative line for you. 9. c5 bxc5 10. dxcd Bxc5 and we free up our bishop. Your analysis is still lacking .. you're opting for 'worst-cast' scenarios for every other move that you don't support, and they're not even entirely realistic. This is TACTICS .. you can't guesstimate more than 3 moves ahead (and sometimes even that) without too many branches. This is a damn good alternative, even if he captures on d5. ßrigaderant
  • I might not be around to update the voting sections @7PM EST .. so I'm going to go ahead and post a vote for this move. When I get back I'll reevaluate, but the alternatives all look like losing propositions. I think this is the best (offensively, defensively, and developmentally) move that we have, and it still keeps us fluid without backing off or losing tempo. ßrigaderant
  • Can someone have a look at this line from white: 9 Bxe4 dxe4 10 Nxe4 fxe4 11 Qxe4 and his queen is pointed at our rook, the central pawn structure is decimated, and our knight at the advanced post is gone.
    • Only problem with that line: He's trading a bishop and a Knight for a Knight and a pawn. We stand to gain off that exchange.
      • Actually, it's his bishop and Knight for a Knight and 2 pawns, with his queen pointed at our rook, and hanging out in the middle of the board. And it tears apart our pawn structure, leaving the kingside with little defense.
  • This is a terrible move. It totally gives away the center and probably loses a pawn for black in the long run. I agree with Kingpatzer's analysis up to move 10 but I think he missed 11. Ba3! for White. Jeff
    • Excellent improvement for white! Kingpatzer 16:10, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
    • 11. Ba3 c5 equalizes with tempo. Re8 is the problem move in that line.
      • I'm not 100% sure but I think that loses a pawn directly --Jeff.
        • No .. it's still an even exchange. Bishop takes knight, pawn takes bishop, then we exchange pawns and c5 is covered by b6. ßrigaderant
          • assuming he takes the knight, I forsee 11. Ba3 c5 12. xd5 If queen takes at d5 (the only option to take the pawn) then 13. Bc4 to pin queen and force exchange of (at best) black queen for white bishop. I would suggest 11. Ba3 Ba6 to prevent this. Speed8ump 19:43, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
          • 11. Ba3 c5 12. c4! If you play through the variations you will see this leaves Black a pawn down at best. Jeff
  • b6 is clearly terrible compared to c6. c6 preserves our center, where b6 provides no advancement, blocks in our queen, and allows white to decimate the center. don't be fooled Fabulosos, vote c6. Thebigjc 20:01, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Funny .. c6 allows only two moves to develop our Knight, one of which further isolates our already bound-up light bishop, and the other sticks him on the wings where it will take at least another move to get him into action. I fail to see how b6 blocks advancement, seeing as it still allows for development of our queenside pieces, AND protects our dark bishop from a c5 advance, AND prevents Ze from chaining his pawns to the 5th rank. ßrigaderant
    • c6 makes the best of Black's slight disadvantage. b6 is a blunder. Jeff
      • What disadvantage would you be referring to? There are 5 aspects of a chess game: Time, Tempo, Space, Material, and Position.
Time is not a factor (this is an untimed game)
Tempo we own (he's responding to our moves, not vice versa)
Space We own more space than he does (the center is slightly in flux, but we control the rest of the board)
Material is even between us.
Position - The only threat that ze has right now is a rather weak one .. cxd5. He has NONE of our pieces threatened (directly or indirectly) .. he can't capture our Knight on f4 without losing time and position (he has to retreat Nd2 or Ne1 to save his own knight)
So tell me again .. where's Black's disadvantage at this point? Maybe development, but b6 allows us the capacity to break out of that in as few moves as possible. This is the superior move between the two. ßrigaderant 21:06, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • We don't own Tempo. We are responding to 8. O-O which increased pressure on d5. Playing b6 now ignores this. All the analysis about this move points out the inevitable cxd5. The whole point of c6 would be to address this. Jeff
  • Someone made a comment somewhere .. 'Let white be in the driver's seat for the next 10 moves' .. the disadvantage to castling is it (usually) gives your opponent tempo, or in layman's terms a 'semi-free move' .. White has been responding to our moves and threats this entire game (check out the game progress boards) .. which means that we had tempo. We lost some by castling proactively, and Ze had little choice but to castle himself, during which we regained that lost tempo and got to further develop and enhance our position while losing nothing .. we own tempo in this game, and will continue to do so, so long as we continue to play smart. We have no vulnerabilities (Ze has no plausible threats) and we continue to play moves that are both offensive AND defensive simultaneously. That is how one keeps/maintains tempo, keep your opponent responding to you. (That's why Black usually plays Gambits or Pawn Sacrifices, to regain lost tempo that White automatically begins the game with). ßrigaderant
  • OK, let's pare down my previous speculation to just this 9. cxd5 Bxc3 10. bxc3 exd5 11 Ba3 ... Assuming white makes those moves, would you, as Black, deviate from this? If so, where? If not, what's black's move at 11? Jeff
    • Alright .. i'll give you two answers:
Black's move at 11 would be c5. It protects the Knight, and allows the Queen to maintain the center.
I'd honestly deviate on move 9. Bxc3 isn't necessary, you can recapture exd3 without taking out the Knight, and still maintain control of the board. Also, Nxc3 I think might be stronger than Bxc3 in this regard, due to the fact that we have f5 covered by our Rook, and we'd still have the e5 pawn (we only exchange his knight if we want to recapture on d5 with our queen) .. the game would be opening up rather quickly, and I'd almost prefer having 2 bishops to 2 knights. ßrigaderant
  • So how do you think Black should respond to 9 cxd5  ? Nxc3 seems like a blunder on top of a blunder ( 9. cxd5 Nxc3 10. bxc3 Bd6 11 dxe6). 9 ... exd5 seems even worse. I think black is pretty hopelessly lost. Oh well. Jeff
  • Have faith, young Padawan. For the Fabulosos are many and strong (and deranged), but Ze is but one (albeit slightly deranged) man.  :-)
  • If ze responds with 9. cxd5, my faith or lake thereof will hardly matter. But you're right, he could screw up and let us off the hook by playing something weaker.
  • wow.What's the procedure for vetoing a move choice? Kingpatzer 07:23, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Not playing collaborative chess, I think. arc


Voting

  1. VOTE by ßrigaderant 17:26, 6 July 2006 (PDT): c6 is a mistake, and the analysis for it is flawed. We've done good thus far, let's not blunder into a corner yet!
  2. VOTE by Funky citrus 17:50, 6 July 2006 (PDT): The c6 bandwagon has left the corale. Please, If you're on it get the heck off before we get ourselves smitten!
  3. VOTE by Graymon 70.144.160.253 18:01, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  4. VOTE by Eddie 18:03, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  5. VOTE by mayorcjSR 18:44, 6 July 2006 (PDT) : I really hope this gains support, i'm putting the other moves in the magic dumpster because they seem to have not recieved any viable support.
  6. VOTE by --Lordsah 19:05, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  7. VOTE by Wingnut19:27, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  8. VOTE by 69.241.232.149 19:35, 6 July 2006 (PDT): I like the way this opens up our Queenside.
  9. VOTE by Blargish 19:37, 6 July 2006 (PDT): From the analysis of c6, it looks like that move would begin to sacrifice our center position on the board...
  10. VOTE by Geedubber 19:48, 6 July 2006 (PDT) : I think either way we are in a losing position, but whatever.
  11. VOTE by Bairdsy: I like this move better as it gives us more defensive options
  12. VOTE by Pseudonym 20:28, 6 July 2006 (PDT): Mmmm, fianchettoey. (Was that how it's spelled?)
  13. VOTE by Towlineeh: I still think we should have done this move last time, but better late than never!
  14. VOTE by M4cfr34k 20:52, 6 July 2006 (PDT): looks good to me
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