Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move9

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Announcement / Apology (Bxc3 was the move, by the way)

Hey, so I thought I sent the move to Ze and it turns out that it was returned to me late last night. In the future, I will post MOVE SENT at the top of the page, if midnight rolls around and you don't see MOVE SENT, then YOU add it to the page, and then send it off, hopefully this will eliminate confusion about if the move has been sent, and those sorts of things. It'd also be nice if Ze would reply to the moves to say they are recieved. Oh well. Move is being sent to Ze (again) as I type.

mayorcjSR 11:05, 10 July 2006 (PDT)


detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting Closed!!!

The WINNER is Bxc3! Moving On omg I can't believe we missed a move -thaddeus


Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open SATURDAY @12PM EDT and close at MONDAY 12AM EDT (Sunday Night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back throughout the weekend even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).

For those that are curious - Brigade and Kingpatzer are playing out their respective ideas in the Chess lobby here .. it's Bd6 (Patzer playing white) and Bxc3 (Brigade playing white) .. games are up to move 31 and it's looking like Kingpatzer is winning the day. Bxc3 may turn out to be a draw but Bd6 is definitely a loss for Black.

So voting was supposed to close an hour ago but it's still says 'open'. Currently it's 10 votes each for Bd6 and Bxc3. Since ßrigade seems to have lost out in the big faceoff, perhaps he will break the tie and switch over to Bxc3 :-) --Jeff

  • I did not lose .. and it's a matter of opinion which game is winning until it is won. I told Major (who submits the votes) that it was up to him to break the tie when he mailed the votes off .. it seems that there were a few 'post-midnight' votes .. I don't know what happens at this point ... "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." ßrigaderant 23:48, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
    • A few 'post-midnight' votes that have pulled ahead for Bxc3. Meanwhile, in the Bd6 game you are about to be down on pieces. I agree that we won't know the outcome of your games with patzer until they are over, but its extremely dishonest to not acknowledge the fact that black is in alot better shape in Bxc3 than Bd6. Wophugus
      • I'm not down a piece in the Bd6 game .. take another look. And in the Bxd3 game I'm about to prove my bishop's superiority .. keep watching. ßrigaderant
        • I've been watching pretty closely. You're about to be 2 pawns down in a bishop and knight endgame in the Bxc3 game and I don't see how you're going to stop him from queening. In the Bd6 game you're down a pawn and your king is seriously exposed which will likely lead to significant loss of material. I'll keep watching, but your credibility is waning. Jeff 15:37, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
          • To be fair to ßrigade, he played the BxN game very well until he got a little over-aggressive in the early end-game and took the d-pawn the wrong way (20. exd4 is a ? move). Granted, I was playing for a draw at that point, but he did play the game well enough to prove the point that the BxN line leads to an equal game (the best you can hope for unless your opponent makes worse mistakes than you do :) ). In the Bd6 game he's been hosed since move 13. c4, but he won't admit it. I don't know why when it's pretty easy to see that his bishop is hindered by his own immobile center pawn, and that means white is playing with about a half-extra piece. And of course that's the point. The Bd6 move would (since voting is over) have been a mistake. BxN is not, which is all I've been trying to show. Kingpatzer 16:43, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
            • I blundered Bxd3 game but it was winnable (by White) .. but the Bd6 game is not decided yet. Within 10-15 moves, he'll either lose by checkmate or he'll draw the game through repeated position .. wait and see. (He can't mate me because my bishop controlls a diagonal he needs access to in order to isolate my King .. I, however have him potentially mated in 1 or 2, a fact that he continues to neglect to mention.)ßrigaderant
              • One of the hallmarks of a good player is recognizing that a positional advantage doesn't need to be turned into a mating attack immediately in order to decide the game. In a few moves, I'll have picked up another pawn, then I'll trade off my knight for the bishop,and a 2 pawn advantage will, after some more manouvering, be easily converted to a win. The Bxc3 game at no point provided white with a winning advantage. *shrug* Kingpatzer 06:08, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
              • You may have blundered in Bxc3 but Black also made several mistakes. Without your mistakes it was looking pretty even. As for the "have him potentially mated in 1 or 2", that's pretty silly. It would require a blunder on white's part for that to happen. Eventually he will exchange queens or play a4. Jeff 09:34, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  • So what's going on here guys? Voting was supposed to be closed more than 7 hours ago. When I checked some time after the deadline had passed the score was Bd6 11, Bxc3 12 TtT
  • (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here
  • So is this official? Is Bxc3 our move? The wiki hasn't been updated to reflect this. -Christian

Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

  • Cut and paste the following to vote:
# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 

Strategy Discussion

Current Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last Move: 9. a3

Contents


Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. Our Knight at e4 is threatened by Ze's Bishop and Queen, but is protected by our pawns at d5 and f5. Our Bishop is threatened by Ze's a3 pawn, which forces us to exchange or retreat it. Also, since Ze castled his c3 Knight is no longer pinned and is free to move.

At this juncture, we need to decide whether to exchange pieces, retreat, or formulate a suitable counter-threat. Some of our options are listed below to get things started.

Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigaderant

Suggested Move Summary

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bd6
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bxc3
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Be7


Bd6

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bd6
Speculative Line
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Line: 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5
  • Retreats our Dark Bishop to safety, however Ze gains tempo and can begin to force us to respond to his game. Has both advantages and disadvantages, we're vulnerable to a pawn push c5, but we also control e5 and h2. ßrigaderant
    • Actually .. i completely forgot about our b6! .. If he advances 10. c5 bxc5 and we win a free pawn .. so in actuality that's one disadvantage off the table. (if he responds with 11. dxc5 Bxc5 and we're still up a pawn. ßrigaderant
      • white's move of c5 remains good for black. Kingpatzer 14:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I like this move (even though it's defensive), because it also sets us up to do a Qh4 and Bxh2 at some point in the future, and start hard charging for the king. (although now that I've typed that, I'm getting more worried as we get into midgame that Ze is snooping around over here...) 66.47.159.86 12:14, 7 July 2006 (PDT) (aka Mike)
  • what is blacks' response to 10. cxd5? I see nothing good here. Kingpatzer 12:15, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • 10 cxd5 Nxc3 and we can retake the pawn safely if we so choose, similiar situation to below though .. we need to look at the entire board, not just one threat. ßrigaderant
  • 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5 12. c4 and black is positionally busted. Against even an FM you can safetly resign Kingpatzer 12:55, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Evaluating that line against the best that Bxc3 10. cxd5 has to offer .. I think we're in a better position. Our Dark bishop makes a difference, and our Knight is still advanced. Plus, 12. c4 Bb7 or Be6 is a good position for us. ßrigaderant
  • I can't tell from the above: Does anyone still think this is a viable move given 10. cxd5 ? Jeff
    • I do not. I see cxd5 as putting black in a real bind. Kingpatzer 16:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I still don't really see the argument for this move as opposed to Bxc3. Has anyone shown a reasonable line out of cxd5 that doesn't leave us with our position on the board trashed and white about to open hell? Has anyone found a really horrible line out of Bxc3 or some reason why we wouldn't want to make a clean exchange while keeping the initiative and our basic structure? It seems to me that Bxc3 followed by moving our other bishop to a3 ends the cxd5 threat, puts Ze under pressure, and retains the initiative. The downside, i guess, is a bishop knight exchange. How is this bad? What am I missing? Wophugus
      • Basically, in essence .. both moves are going to open up the board a lot (I'll have to put some prospective boards up for the Bxc3 thread as well) .. and having 2 bishops in an open game (when the center is in flux and not jammed up with pawns) is more valuable than having a bishop and a knight. They control more space and have more range of movement. Another consideration: cxd5 is not a definite move, but even if it is made, we voted for b6 in the last line to avoid losing our dark bishop .. if we just sacrifice it off now, we're changing gears mid-stride. So we have to play the position that we have, and I think that this move probably capitalizes on it. ßrigaderant
        • except in the Bxc3 line it's not an open position after Ba6. It's very much to black's advantage, while in these lines black is working hard to maintain equality. After Ba6 in the Bxc3 lines white can't blow up the center and has to figure out something better to do.
  • I'm setting up some boards to do a side-by-side comparison 2 moves out .. it's the easiest way to visualize the differences between the two moves resulting from cxd5 (the only threat we've found to either position) Here .. it nullifies the threat of cxd4 ... looks like a winner to me .. I'm sold. ßrigaderant
  • All you Bd6 voters should really check out the ArenaRoom1 action. Bd6 is looking kind of bad and Bxc3 is looking more even. Jeff (Actually, now I'm starting to think Black can win Bxc3)

Voting

  1. VOTE by ßrigaderant 09:11, 8 July 2006 (PDT): I all three moves are playable, but I like this the best.
  2. VOTE by Murder1 21:29, 8 July 2006 (PDT): When it was played out it looked best.
  3. VOTE by voodooboy 23:35, 8 July 2006 (PDT) I like the way it threatens his king.
  4. VOTE by He who says zonk 00:54, 9 July 2006 (PDT) - It isn't ideal but it's the better of the two retreats and I don't like the way the exchange plays out.
  5. VOTE by Christian 03:02, 9 July 2006 (PDT) - It seems silly to sacrifice the Bishop after we've protected it. This seems like a good move.
  6. VOTE by PTWhipplebang 09:10, 9 July 2006 (PDT): This seems better than sacrificing our bishop.
  7. VOTE by SaintPeter 12:25, 9 July 2006 (PDT): I normally wouldn't play this conservative, but this looks safest.
  8. VOTE by Towlineeh ~~ I don't think we gain enough by sacrificing the Bishop. Allez les bleus!
  9. VOTE by Mikkel04: Smartest and Safest move to choose from.
  10. VOTE by Funky citrus 19:17, 9 July 2006 (PDT):Not really a bad or good move, but it's the best we've got.
  11. VOTE by Graymon 65.190.198.224 22:53, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
  12. VOTE by Danetrix 07:18, 10 July 2006 (PDT) From what I thought of the discussion from Jeff, Kingpatzer and ßrigade, a single factor is clear that came out of all of the games. We need the bishop's moveability for as long as we can. The player with the bishop is in a superior position. My vote goes here.


Bxc3

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bxc3
  • Possibly the best of the exchange variations, although we're exchanging our (slightly more valuable) dark bishop for his (slightly weaker) Knight, however we maintain tempo and control his next move (most likely bxc3, but there may be alternatives). ßrigaderant
  • not "possibly" definitely. Simply the only move that doesn't leave black in a pssive position after white blows up the center. Kingpatzer 12:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Yeah, I can't believe Ze didn't do 9. cxd5. Bxc3 capitalizes on his goof and brings us closer to parity. I wonder if he's toying with us or if he's just not trying or not very good? Jeff
  • But what happens if he doesn't use bxc3 to recapture? Is Bxe4 decisive? (Each of us has lost a piece, and has a piece threatened, so it's still an even exchange) .. ßrigaderant
    • Yes, Bxe4 is strongly in black's favor. 10. Bxe4 fxe4. Black would then have captured a Bishop & a Knight, while White would only have captured a Knight. White could then take our bishop, but would end up trading his Knight for a pawn. Ze's only real move is bxc3, giving us control on our next move. Shadowcrash 12:56, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Conversation thread relocated Here to keep discussion on topic.
  • the most promising line from this position is 9. ... Bxc3 10. bxc3 Ba6 (pressures the c pawn and helps protect our center) 11. Ne5 when we have a couple of choices:
11. .. dxc4 is playable but dangerous as we pretty much agree to trash our pawn structure after 12. Bxe4 fxe4 13. Qxe4 we're effectively a pawn down (we can't keep the e pawn for long) and will still probably lose. However, we have a good line for our bishop and some temporary advantages that we might be able to make use.
11. .. Ng5 12. cxd5 Bxd3 13. Nxd3 Qxd5 14. c4 and we have a better pawn structure, though still not optimal, two knights against a bishop-knight pair. We can make this work but we'll have to be carefull to trade off our backward pawn as soon as possible.
11. .. Nf6 plays out the same as the above line more or less.
in both of the above lines, instead of Qxd5, exd5 can be played which leads to a better pawn structure but presents a challenge in stopping a future pawn advance by white should we ever lose the c pawn. Kingpatzer 13:41, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • You forgot one (if you're playing them out this far .. i still think more than 2 moves is too much variation:
11. .. Nd7 12. Nd6 and we move our queen .. still it's an ugly position, our bishop stuck on the a file and the entire center still in flux .. I'm starting to lean more towards 9. .. Bd6 so we can control e5 and keep Ze on the lookout for mating sacrifices. ßrigaderant
    • Clearly Black will have to move the queen at some point. I think 11. Ne5 Qe8 and then what can White do? Jeff
  • I see it going 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5 which isn't all that bad. Geedubber 16:56, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Take a look at the comparison link below .. losing both bishops is a killer, and we're fighting a losing game. After 12. Qxd3 I expect to see 13. Ne5 and then 14. a4 (for Ba3 .. mobilizing his bishop)ßrigaderant
  • I'm a bit fatigued. Mark me down as
# '''VOTE''' by [[User:AmericanJeffBowden|Jeff]]: Brings Black closer to parity
  • I've set up some boards to do a side-by-side comparison between the two moves .. it's the easiest way to visualize the differences between the two moves resulting from cxd5 (the only threat we've found to either position) Here .. it helped me visualize the weakness in trading off our dark bishop. ßrigaderant
    • wait i don't get it. why would we do 12. Qxd3 Qxd5 and not 12. Qxd3 exd5 Geedubber 23:10, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
      • I was trying to do play the best moves possible .. I felt that exd5 was weaker because it leaves the f-pawn hanging without support, but since you and King both suggested the line I'll replace it. ßrigaderant
  • since I can barely manage to edit this page let alone set up side by side boards (damn wiki gods!) I'll try and explain where I deviate from Brigade's analysis and why. After 9. ... Bxc3, Ze has three interesting forcing choices in bxc3 or cxd5. He also has some other options in moves like Ne5 and Be2 the idea behind both is to try and coordinate his pieces by delayin the recapture of our Bishop, which he can do semi-safetly because the bishop can't go anyplace that he can't recapture it. However, these don't really work out that well for him, so let's look at those first.
10. Ne5 b5!! Yes, that looks wierd. Someone who plays only by principles instead of by calculating out the moves will think it's wrong. But, believe it or not, Ze is stuck for a response. After a few moves fighting things out in the center, with best play the result will be a locked center with us having a few targets in his Knight and slightly backward e-pawn, while he will have the b-file. It'll be an even game with a slight advantage to us!
10. Be2 Bxb2 11. BxB Ba6 here, Ze might decide to temporarily give up a pawn to open up the B file so his pieces can have some more space to play in. This would be devistating except that we can use the Ba6 square to fight for the a6-f1 diagonal. Ze's pieces are, for the moment, less coordinated than ours and we can make use of that to buy us time to better position ourselves to defend his coming queenside attack. This would actually be a fun variation to play as both sides have soem strong pluses and strong minuses, so the game would be interesting for a number of moves.
Ok, those are the non-capturing moves, now let's look at the more serious problems we have to face:
10. bxc3 Ba6 The reason for this response is simple, Ze's advantage lies in his superior pawn structure, but we can attack that structure at it's weakest point. The c4 pawn can only be defended by pieces, while we can attack it with pieces and pawns. Now if cxd5 Bxd3 leaves Ze with a bad bishop against two knights, an advantage for black! So he has to find some other way to play. The most likely choice now is 11. Ne5 opting for counter play. But we have a nice resource in 11. ... c5. Now any attempt to liquidate the center still leaves him with the same bad bishop versus good knights scenerio. This is fine line for black and we should welcome this line of play!!
10. cxd5 this move attempts to complicate the game and delays capturing our bishop to try and obtain additional advantages. But after 10. ... Bxd4 11. exd4 exd5 12. Ne5 Kh8 (to get off the potentially weak a2-g8 diagonal) white's advantages (bishop pair on an open board, better development) are set off by his weakness, an isolated blocked pawn) We have to be carefull here because the bishop pair can be very strong on an open board, but we have lots of good counterplay.
  • Conclussion: this is the best move we have available to us. Play through the response to bxc3 of Ba6 and it's easy to see that this game is quite equal. Black has to play accurately, it's true, but white has no hope of any lasting advantage in any of these lines. The important line is this one: 10. bxc3 Ba6! 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5 (see diagram). Now white's problem, and the reason this is GOOD for black is that his bishop sits on dark squares, as do all of his center pawns. That means that his pawns are in the way of his own Bishop. He has a long term problem that his mobility is hampered. meanwhile we have several positional pluses -- on the queen side we have a superior pawn structure and a 4-3 pawn advantage. The kingside isn't a worry because it's immobile for white due to his own knight and a need to not create a backward e pawn. Black has multiple outposts for his knights in white's space on c4, e4 and g4, and can also make use of the a4 square due to the pawn on a3, which is hopelessly weak. White meanwhile can't do anything usefull with his bishop, his queen is bottled up, and he only has the e5 square for his knight, which we can get rid of as well with Nc6 or Nd7. White's only good feature is the half-open b file, which is the only thing that keeps his game from being completely dominated by black at this point. In short, any claim that Ba6 is a mistake is simply ignoring the reality that knight versus bishop in a semi-closed position favors the knight when the bishop is bad and behind it's own pawns (as is in this case) and the knight has good outposts, again as in this case. This move holds no fear for black. If Brigade wants to challenge me on that, I'll gladly play a couple of games from move 11., but I find no significant improvements for white. he's not lost, but he's defensive and struggling to hold onto his advantage after this series of moves. Kingpatzer 07:52, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
    • We're up to move 22 and I think that white has the advantage in this game (following the Bxc3 line) .. you have to at least be open to admitting that. ßrigaderant
      • What? Move 22? where?
      • nm, I found it: http://www.zefrank.com/wiki/index.php/Fabuloso_Chess/ArenaRoom1 Umm, it looks like Black is slightly better in the Bxc6 game whereas White is a piece ahead in Bd6-land.
        • Uncompleted exchange .. we're equal on material on the Bc6 game (once he recaptures) and in the Bxc3 game it's both rooks (we're exchanging queens now) against equal pawns .. black has a knight and white has a bishop .. he's facing a losing endgame. (I may win a pawn here in the next few moves to prove it) ßrigaderant
        • In the BxN game it's an even game, maybe a slight advantage for black, but pretty much even. In the Bd6 game black is hopelessly lost with his bishop trapped behind pawns on his own bishop's color.


Voting

  1. VOTE by Jeff: Brings Black closer to parity
  2. VOTE by Thebigjc 12:51, 8 July 2006 (PDT): Agressive, and has the best chance to put us materialy ahead
  3. VOTE by SalMancini I WAS in favor of trying to save the bishop(leaning toward Be7), but I think this leaves us in a better position. If we weren't prepared to take the knight, why move Bb4 in the first place? Let's be aggressive.
  4. VOTE by Kingpatzer 09:47, 9 July 2006 (PDT): In Bd6 adn Be7 black's attempt to save the bishop gives white too many options and allows the center to be broken open to white's advantage. In BxN after a coming Ba6 white can't control the center and it leads to an even game.
  5. VOTE by JudiciousH 11:41, 9 July 2006 (PDT): No point wasting moves and breaking pawn structure to avoid an even exchange.
  6. VOTE by 84.9.50.169 14:48, 9 July 2006 (PDT): No reasons which haven't already been stated.
  7. VOTE by TtT 23:53, 9 July 2006 (CEST): Less threats from white to juggle
  8. VOTE by Pseudonym 16:45, 9 July 2006 (PDT): Exchange now while the bishop and knight are roughly worth the same.
  9. VOTE by Bairdsy: This exchange doesnt cost us mutch but lets us keep our tempo up.
  10. VOTE by Wophugus: Worked out some lines in my own half assed way that make me favor this. Will someone please look at the showdown betwen kingpanzer and birgade and think about changing their vote?
  11. VOTE by sepll cehck: Force movement to create weakness. We have more minds to count moves ahead. As long as we can create false justifications to satiate the voting masses and possibly mislead Ze then our position here is much better. This is the first move in a winning series. Traps lie ahead.
  12. VOTE by BooBoowarrior: I think Kingpanzers game against Birgade showed that we have the best chance here.
  13. VOTE by arc 11:27, 10 July 2006 (EST): If were are still counting late votes, which we shouldn't be, this is mine.
  14. VOTE by gelbitalk 08:28, 10 July 2006 (PDT): I don't have time to argue, but I believe in this one... but what's going on, have we missed the deadline??
  15. VOTE by Wingnut 09:23, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
  16. VOTE by Jesus 12:33, 10 July 2006 (EST): Jesus has spoken.

Be7

Speculative Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 9. a3 Be7
  • I would like to keep the queen pointed up the middle while allowing the bishop to aplly pressure to the diagonal. d5 is vulnerable as well as e4.
    • Also potentially allows for us to respond to Ne5 with Bf6 .. ßrigaderant
  • as with Bd6, what's the response to cxd5, besides tears? Kingpatzer 12:18, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I see three responses to cxd5, but we need to evaluate all of ze's options .. he's shown us in past moves (as well as this one) that he makes moves based on something that we cannot understand (for good or bad) ßrigaderant .. none of us proposed a3 during the last discussion .. that said:
9. .. exd5 maintains material exchange, but isolates our pawns at d5 and f5.
9. .. Nxc3 10. bxc3 Qxd5 might look a bit better, but deserves further analysis.
  • I think you mean 9. ... Be7 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5
9. .. c5. Let him have the pawn. He has a myriad of responses and we'll end up a pawn down, but what move can we make on 10. to capitalize on this?
  • So... 10. cxd5 exd5 11.Nd5? Salmancini
  • Think it loses for us. 11. Nd5 Qxd5 12. Bc4 pins our Queen .. so we're losing a pawn unless there's another option here. ßrigaderant
  • we can't evaluate all possible responses to a move, the tree's too big. We can safetly ignore those moves of his that negatively impact him. That said let's look at these lines:
9. .. Be7 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxd5 and now we have to waste tempo moving the bishop so Bb6 12. Nf4 and black is really hurting. we'll have a hard time protecting the a8-h1 diagonal and we're down a pretty important pawn.
9. .. Be7 10. cxd4 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5 12. e4 Qd6 13. exf5 exf5 14. Qb3+ Kh8 15. Ne5 black's not busted here but he's got a long way to go to prove it. Ze's completely developed and entirely passive.
You lost me here .. cxd4 doesn't appear to be a valid move .. ßrigaderant
sorry 9. .. Be7 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5 ...
9. .. Be7 10. c5 (once again BAD move in these sorts of positiosn, but we can dream) bxd5 11. b3 Ba6 etc. more or less equal game. But we get here by Ze making a very sub-optimal move Kingpatzer 12:52, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Conversation thread relocated Here to keep discussion on topic.
  • Alright .. it's looking like our best prospects are Bd6, Bd7, and Bxc3 .. why don't we iron out the positives/negatives between Bd6 and Bd7 Be7 first, figure out which one plays best, then debate retreat and exchange after that? We have all weekend to make a decision, best to use the time we have imho. ßrigaderant
    • sounds good... i'm gonna go set up a board to look through Be7 Kingpatzer 14:29, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I assume that must be a typo where Bd7 is considered to be among black's 'best prospects'?
  • This defensive play with the bishop clears it from the possibility of Ze advancing his knigt, threatening the bishop if we were only to move it to d6.
  • ok, here' my best shot at analysis for his move, and by and large it's not as bad as I initially thought. Main line is: 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5 12. c4 c6 when white has a few different plans but by and large only a slight advantage, due mainly to our poor development and bad pawn structure. Black is in for a defensive game, but might hold the draw. Possible deviations:
10. Ne2 c5 holds no fear for us
10. Bd2 Ba6 is actually quite nice
10. b4 c6
11. Qxc3 exd5 12. b4 c6 and we're ok
11. dxe6 is a blunder of course after and good for black
My conclussion is that this is, while not perfectly sound, playable. I still prefere Bxc3, but this is not as bad as I originally thought. Kingpatzer 07:14, 8 July 2006 (PDT)

Voting



Speculative Moves Lacking Support

The following moves have been discussed and have been found lacking. Please feel free to add other lines above (just copy the speculative templates and paste them above this section), but these all were found to be flawed. The complete boards and discussions of the moves are located in the Magic Dumpster.


Ba5

a5

a3

dxc4

Nc6

Nxc3








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