From zefrank

Announcement / Apology (Bxc3 was the move, by the way)

Hey, so I thought I sent the move to Ze and it turns out that it was returned to me late last night. In the future, I will post MOVE SENT at the top of the page, if midnight rolls around and you don't see MOVE SENT, then YOU add it to the page, and then send it off, hopefully this will eliminate confusion about if the move has been sent, and those sorts of things. It'd also be nice if Ze would reply to the moves to say they are recieved. Oh well. Move is being sent to Ze (again) as I type.

mayorcjSR 11:05, 10 July 2006 (PDT)

detailed history | current 3d view

	Ze	Us	consensus
1	d4	d5	56%
2	c4	e6	66%
3	Nc3	Bb4	48%
4	Nf3	Nf6	82%
5	e3	Ne4	56%
6	Qc2	f5	62%
7	Bd3	O-O	83%
8	O-O	b6	61%
9	a3	Bxc3	57%
10	bxc3	Ba6	65%
11	Ne5	Nd7	37%
12	Nc6	Qf6	89%
13	f3	Nd6	100%
14	e4	dxc4	100%
15	Be2	e5	100%
16	d5	Nb8	55%
17	Nb4	Bb7	93%
18	a4	a5	100%
19	Na2	Nd7	50%
20	Ba3	Rac8	50%
21	Rab1	Qg5	60%
22	Kh1	fxe4	61%
23	fxe4	Qg6	89%
24	Rxf8+	Rxf8	100%
25	Bxd6	Rf2	100%
26	Rg1	cxd6	100%
27	Qd1	Nf6	73%
28	Bf3	Nxe4	93%
29	Nc1	Rd2	53%
30	Bxe4	Rxd1	100%
31	Bxg6	Rxg1+	100%
32	Kxg1	hxg6	100%
33	Resign	---

Voting Closed!!!

The WINNER is Bxc3! Moving On omg I can't believe we missed a move -thaddeus

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open SATURDAY @12PM EDT and close at MONDAY 12AM EDT (Sunday Night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back throughout the weekend even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).

For those that are curious - Brigade and Kingpatzer are playing out their respective ideas in the Chess lobby here .. it's Bd6 (Patzer playing white) and Bxc3 (Brigade playing white) .. games are up to move 31 and it's looking like Kingpatzer is winning the day. Bxc3 may turn out to be a draw but Bd6 is definitely a loss for Black.

So voting was supposed to close an hour ago but it's still says 'open'. Currently it's 10 votes each for Bd6 and Bxc3. Since ßrigade seems to have lost out in the big faceoff, perhaps he will break the tie and switch over to Bxc3 :-) --Jeff

• I did not lose .. and it's a matter of opinion which game is winning until it is won. I told Major (who submits the votes) that it was up to him to break the tie when he mailed the votes off .. it seems that there were a few 'post-midnight' votes .. I don't know what happens at this point ... "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." ßrigade^rant 23:48, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
  • A few 'post-midnight' votes that have pulled ahead for Bxc3. Meanwhile, in the Bd6 game you are about to be down on pieces. I agree that we won't know the outcome of your games with patzer until they are over, but its extremely dishonest to not acknowledge the fact that black is in alot better shape in Bxc3 than Bd6. Wophugus
    • I'm not down a piece in the Bd6 game .. take another look. And in the Bxd3 game I'm about to prove my bishop's superiority .. keep watching. ßrigade^rant
      • I've been watching pretty closely. You're about to be 2 pawns down in a bishop and knight endgame in the Bxc3 game and I don't see how you're going to stop him from queening. In the Bd6 game you're down a pawn and your king is seriously exposed which will likely lead to significant loss of material. I'll keep watching, but your credibility is waning. Jeff 15:37, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
        • To be fair to ßrigade, he played the BxN game very well until he got a little over-aggressive in the early end-game and took the d-pawn the wrong way (20. exd4 is a ? move). Granted, I was playing for a draw at that point, but he did play the game well enough to prove the point that the BxN line leads to an equal game (the best you can hope for unless your opponent makes worse mistakes than you do :) ). In the Bd6 game he's been hosed since move 13. c4, but he won't admit it. I don't know why when it's pretty easy to see that his bishop is hindered by his own immobile center pawn, and that means white is playing with about a half-extra piece. And of course that's the point. The Bd6 move would (since voting is over) have been a mistake. BxN is not, which is all I've been trying to show. Kingpatzer 16:43, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
          • I blundered Bxd3 game but it was winnable (by White) .. but the Bd6 game is not decided yet. Within 10-15 moves, he'll either lose by checkmate or he'll draw the game through repeated position .. wait and see. (He can't mate me because my bishop controlls a diagonal he needs access to in order to isolate my King .. I, however have him potentially mated in 1 or 2, a fact that he continues to neglect to mention.)ßrigade^rant
            • One of the hallmarks of a good player is recognizing that a positional advantage doesn't need to be turned into a mating attack immediately in order to decide the game. In a few moves, I'll have picked up another pawn, then I'll trade off my knight for the bishop,and a 2 pawn advantage will, after some more manouvering, be easily converted to a win. The Bxc3 game at no point provided white with a winning advantage. *shrug* Kingpatzer 06:08, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
            • You may have blundered in Bxc3 but Black also made several mistakes. Without your mistakes it was looking pretty even. As for the "have him potentially mated in 1 or 2", that's pretty silly. It would require a blunder on white's part for that to happen. Eventually he will exchange queens or play a4. Jeff 09:34, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
• So what's going on here guys? Voting was supposed to be closed more than 7 hours ago. When I checked some time after the deadline had passed the score was Bd6 11, Bxc3 12 TtT
• (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here
• So is this official? Is Bxc3 our move? The wiki hasn't been updated to reflect this. -Christian

Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

• Cut and paste the following to vote:

# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 

Strategy Discussion

Contents 1 Announcement / Apology (Bxc3 was the move, by the way) 2 Voting Closed!!! 3 Strategy Discussion 3.1 Suggested Move Summary 3.2 Bd6 3.2.1 Voting 3.3 Bxc3 3.3.1 Voting 3.4 Be7 3.4.1 Voting 4 Speculative Moves Lacking Support 4.1 Ba5 4.2 a5 4.3 a3 4.4 dxc4 4.5 Nc6 4.6 Nxc3

Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. Our Knight at e4 is threatened by Ze's Bishop and Queen, but is protected by our pawns at d5 and f5. Our Bishop is threatened by Ze's a3 pawn, which forces us to exchange or retreat it. Also, since Ze castled his c3 Knight is no longer pinned and is free to move.

At this juncture, we need to decide whether to exchange pieces, retreat, or formulate a suitable counter-threat. Some of our options are listed below to get things started.

Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigade^rant

Suggested Move Summary

Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bd6

Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bxc3

Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Be7

Bd6

• Retreats our Dark Bishop to safety, however Ze gains tempo and can begin to force us to respond to his game. Has both advantages and disadvantages, we're vulnerable to a pawn push c5, but we also control e5 and h2. ßrigade^rant
  • Actually .. i completely forgot about our b6! .. If he advances 10. c5 bxc5 and we win a free pawn .. so in actuality that's one disadvantage off the table. (if he responds with 11. dxc5 Bxc5 and we're still up a pawn. ßrigade^rant
    • white's move of c5 remains good for black. Kingpatzer 14:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• I like this move (even though it's defensive), because it also sets us up to do a Qh4 and Bxh2 at some point in the future, and start hard charging for the king. (although now that I've typed that, I'm getting more worried as we get into midgame that Ze is snooping around over here...) 66.47.159.86 12:14, 7 July 2006 (PDT) (aka Mike)

• what is blacks' response to 10. cxd5? I see nothing good here. Kingpatzer 12:15, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• 10 cxd5 Nxc3 and we can retake the pawn safely if we so choose, similiar situation to below though .. we need to look at the entire board, not just one threat. ßrigade^rant

• 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5 12. c4 and black is positionally busted. Against even an FM you can safetly resign Kingpatzer 12:55, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• Evaluating that line against the best that Bxc3 10. cxd5 has to offer .. I think we're in a better position. Our Dark bishop makes a difference, and our Knight is still advanced. Plus, 12. c4 Bb7 or Be6 is a good position for us. ßrigade^rant

• I can't tell from the above: Does anyone still think this is a viable move given 10. cxd5 ? Jeff
  • I do not. I see cxd5 as putting black in a real bind. Kingpatzer 16:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I still don't really see the argument for this move as opposed to Bxc3. Has anyone shown a reasonable line out of cxd5 that doesn't leave us with our position on the board trashed and white about to open hell? Has anyone found a really horrible line out of Bxc3 or some reason why we wouldn't want to make a clean exchange while keeping the initiative and our basic structure? It seems to me that Bxc3 followed by moving our other bishop to a3 ends the cxd5 threat, puts Ze under pressure, and retains the initiative. The downside, i guess, is a bishop knight exchange. How is this bad? What am I missing? Wophugus
    • Basically, in essence .. both moves are going to open up the board a lot (I'll have to put some prospective boards up for the Bxc3 thread as well) .. and having 2 bishops in an open game (when the center is in flux and not jammed up with pawns) is more valuable than having a bishop and a knight. They control more space and have more range of movement. Another consideration: cxd5 is not a definite move, but even if it is made, we voted for b6 in the last line to avoid losing our dark bishop .. if we just sacrifice it off now, we're changing gears mid-stride. So we have to play the position that we have, and I think that this move probably capitalizes on it. ßrigade^rant
      • except in the Bxc3 line it's not an open position after Ba6. It's very much to black's advantage, while in these lines black is working hard to maintain equality. After Ba6 in the Bxc3 lines white can't blow up the center and has to figure out something better to do.
• I'm setting up some boards to do a side-by-side comparison 2 moves out .. it's the easiest way to visualize the differences between the two moves resulting from cxd5 (the only threat we've found to either position) Here .. it nullifies the threat of cxd4 ... looks like a winner to me .. I'm sold. ßrigade^rant

• All you Bd6 voters should really check out the ArenaRoom1 action. Bd6 is looking kind of bad and Bxc3 is looking more even. Jeff (Actually, now I'm starting to think Black can win Bxc3)

Voting

1. VOTE by ßrigade^rant 09:11, 8 July 2006 (PDT): I all three moves are playable, but I like this the best.
2. VOTE by Murder1 21:29, 8 July 2006 (PDT): When it was played out it looked best.
3. VOTE by voodooboy 23:35, 8 July 2006 (PDT) I like the way it threatens his king.
4. VOTE by He who says zonk 00:54, 9 July 2006 (PDT) - It isn't ideal but it's the better of the two retreats and I don't like the way the exchange plays out.
5. VOTE by Christian 03:02, 9 July 2006 (PDT) - It seems silly to sacrifice the Bishop after we've protected it. This seems like a good move.
6. VOTE by PTWhipplebang 09:10, 9 July 2006 (PDT): This seems better than sacrificing our bishop.
7. VOTE by SaintPeter 12:25, 9 July 2006 (PDT): I normally wouldn't play this conservative, but this looks safest.
8. VOTE by Towline^eh ~~ I don't think we gain enough by sacrificing the Bishop. Allez les bleus!
9. VOTE by Mikkel04: Smartest and Safest move to choose from.
10. VOTE by Funky citrus 19:17, 9 July 2006 (PDT):Not really a bad or good move, but it's the best we've got.
11. VOTE by Graymon 65.190.198.224 22:53, 9 July 2006 (PDT)
12. VOTE by Danetrix 07:18, 10 July 2006 (PDT) From what I thought of the discussion from Jeff, Kingpatzer and ßrigade, a single factor is clear that came out of all of the games. We need the bishop's moveability for as long as we can. The player with the bishop is in a superior position. My vote goes here.

Bxc3