Magic Dumpster:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move8

From zefrank

Contents 1 Bxc3 2 Nc6 3 Nxc3 4 Ng5

Bxc3

• Maintains tempo .. but sacrifices our bishop for his Knight. He either has to recapture, or check us with 9. Qa4+. ßrigade^rant 11:41, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Maybe I'm clueless, but Qa4 isn't check because we castled...
    • GAH .. sleep dep + mad wiki editing rears it's ugly head .. thanks for noticing that .. ßrigade^rant
• I have no problem with trading a bishop for a knight, but in this case his knight is pretty useless, while our bishop is well developed. I'd rather see us develop more of our weak side pieces or strengthen our defense in the middle.Shadowcrash 12:18, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• given that our pawns are all on white squares and likely will be for some time, I'm thinking this is a bad long-term decission. We'll be left with a bishop with very little scope against two knights who have a solid outpost on e5. I see nothing to be gained by this move. It's not immediately bad, but the long-term pluses are hard for me to find. Kingpatzer 12:34, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• Doesnt he just take our bish with his pawn, and leave us to give him a knight if we want to? This looks like a poor idea. -AnonHC
• The more I look at this the less I like it. consider:

- 9. bxc3 Nc6 10. Ba3 Re8 11. Kh1 Rb8 12. Rac1 Bd7 13 cxd5 exd5 14. c4 Be6 15. Rb1 black has some counter play for his weak pawn structure, but mostly, he's hosed. White will just use his space advantage to force concessions from black. It's not a forced loss, but black has no good options that I can see. Kingpatzer 15:00, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

Nc6

• Develops Queenside Knight for potential assault without obstructing our Bishop's retreat. ßrigade^rant 11:50, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Threatens any attempt by white for Ne5. medwards^talk

# VOTE by Wingnut: Looks like a good idea for us to continue developing the center, while he's on the defensive. 11:58, 6 July 2006 (PDT) Sorry about that, didn't know about that voting rule. Wingnut

• Are we going back to our voting without any discussion whatsoever and gut moves? arc

• Only if you cannot vote after 7PM .. I'll move his vote down to the voting section then .. but yes, voting opens up at 7PM. ßrigade^rant

• This is a bad move:

- 9. cxd5 exd5 10.Nxd5 Re8 11. Nxb4 Nxb4 12. Qb3+ Nd5 13. Bc4 c6 14. Ne5 and we're down a pawn with a passive position and no compensation. Making this move results in loss of material

Can't move 10. .. Re8 .. our bishop is in the way. ßrigade^rant

Um Rf8-Re8 where's the bishop that's in the way?? Kingpatzer 13:30, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

• Try 9. cxd5 Bxc3 (or Nxc3) 10. bxc3 exd5 .. I'll throw up a board if necessary .. but it leaves us with a solid position. If we calculate an intelligent response, we'll be fine, but your move assumptions are off a bit I think. ßrigade^rant

• 9. cxd5 Bxc3 10. dxc6!! and now black is going for a ride. I don't see how black avoids losing at least 2 pawns and all sense of pawn structure except by trading the bishop off, which leaves us down a full piece.
• 9. cxd5 Bxc3 10. bxc3 and now black must lose a piece.

• Why in 10. do we Re8 instead of Qxd5? - arc

• Because then 11. Bc4! will loose us our Queen because she will be pinned to our King. - TtT

• Whats the plan. There is a time for heuristics and there is a time for a well thought out plan. Mid game isnt the time for heuristics. That piece cant engage for 2 or three turns so why is moving it right now essential? If it can wait, and there is a better piece to move, shouldnt we move that one? -AnonHC
  • because Bc4 results in the loss of our queen
    • Instead of assuming we all see what you are talking about would you care to explain how this results in loss of queen? - arc
      • Bc4 pins our Queen to our King if we recapture with our Queen. ßrigade^rant
        • Okay, got it. There is an error to the board to the right which I'll fix though. -arc

Nxc3

• Trades Knight-for-Knight .. we're giving up our advanced post Knight, but forces him to recapture with bxc3, and then we can retreat our Bishop to d6, which covers e5 and threatens to assault his castled King. ßrigade^rant 11:56, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Actually .. we'd have to retreat to e7, since he could push his pawn to c5 and force us to move our bishop again .. this isn't a BAD spot, but again this maintains tempo and eliminates the threat of his unpinned Knight. ßrigade^rant
• I think this makes the board stronger for Ze and solidifies the middle ground for him. I also see Bd6 as much stronger than Be7, which raises the possibility of first taking c4 (d5xc4 9.Bxc4 Kxc3 10. b2xc3 Bb6). Again, the final position leaves Ze much stronger in the middle than us. Shadowcrash 12:29, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• I'm reluctant to support any exchange of pieces without some supporting move analysis as to why it's a good idea. We're behind in development. In a closed board position that's not too bad, but we have to make our choices knowing our negatives as well as our positives. Where's some calculation to show why this move is ok? Kingpatzer 12:45, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I don't really like the move .. I'm just throwing out some suggestions that will most likely pop up so we can shoot them down now as opposed to later. Being 'proactive' if you will.  :-) ßrigade^rant
• If I were Ze in this position, I would take the knight with the pawn, threaten the bish, and maybe have traded a pawn & a knight for a bish, a knight, and centerboard dominance. This gives Ze a very strong postion. -AnonHC
• While superficially not bad, looking closer I see nothing better than: 9. bxc3 Be7 10. cxd5 Qxd5 11. e4 fxe4 12. Bxe4 Qh5 Which gives us an isolated pawn against a very strong pawn island. The board gets broken open while we're still under-developed (we DO NOT WANT THAT!) and there are very real threats looming after Rb1, Re1 and c4 we're going to have a hard time not losing. Kingpatzer 13:09, 6 July 2006 (PDT) (typo fixed by AnonHC, "I worked through your moves.. this isnt a reply to a comment, its its own strong, standalone, comment")

Ng5

• Now that he has castled, we know where his king is. His king isnt going anywhere. Our goal is to get his king while keeping him from significantly weakening our position, or getting our king. This sets us up to bring our queen to the board, potentially take his knight, and make significant headway in putting our power-pieces near his king. AnonHC^talk
• Our knight isn't really threatened where it is now (if he captures our Knight with his bishop, we recapture with a pawn) .. I think it'd be better to keep him at his advanced post and develop our other Knight first. We burned two moves getting him down there, let's not waste one on retreat. ßrigade^rant
• I'm admittedly not much of a chess player, but this move scares me. It opens up a pathway for trapping our king in the castle. If he responds with cxd5, we're one way or the other losing support for f5. He could sac his light bishop there with queen support, leaving our abandoned knight. We'd have to knight trade, but he'd be left in a pretty good position. At least, from what little I understand of the game. --AtteSmythe 13:13, 6 July 2006 (PDT) 13:09, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• Look three moves down this path. There is an imperfect game because he can see the counsel we keep and the justifications for our moves, and we cant see his. The only cover we have is to suggest moves without exhaustive justifications, and hope that enough people who are online & voting at voting time can see ahead a few moves. Move paths (Kxg5, Qxg5,...), (Bxf5, Pxf5, Pxd5, Qxd5). -AnonHC
  • I initially argued this way against medwards, but this is a good justification why you can't just expect this to work: "(copied in from the Chess talk page) Maybe a serious explanation as to why we take this concern so lightly... Unless you have a say 5 minutes time constraint, you don't win by trapping the opponent. You win by doing a deeper analysis at each move so that you are more likely to become aware of favorable deviations from previously analysed lines before you opponent. If we would put up a detailed analysis here and Ze would just follow with what we think is the best response from the wiki, he would be at a clear disadvantage. --Gelbitalk 19:32, 24 June 2006 (PDT)" - arc
• 8. ... Ng5 is a losing move.

- 9. Nxg5 dxc4 10. Bxf5 Rxf5 11. f4 Nc6

- if 9. ... Qxg5 10. cxd5 and black has no good responses

- in either case, black is headed for a very quick loss. Kingpatzer 13:22, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

• I was being too aggressive. We cant move the queen to that area without support. -AnonHC