From zefrank

Revision as of 22:14, 11 July 2006 V (Talk | contribs) (→Discussion) ← Previous diff		Revision as of 22:17, 11 July 2006 Gelbi (Talk | contribs) (→Nf6 - removed invisible stuff (duplicated)) Next diff →
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	* This moves our knight out of the way. Why is this necessary?		* This moves our knight out of the way. Why is this necessary?
	* 11. cxd5 Qxd5 (exd5 drops the f pawn!) 12. c4 "and black's in desperate need of a good idea, or in chess notation +-" [[User:Kingpatzer|Kingpatzer]] 11:42, 11 July 2006 (PDT)		* 11. cxd5 Qxd5 (exd5 drops the f pawn!) 12. c4 "and black's in desperate need of a good idea, or in chess notation +-" [[User:Kingpatzer|Kingpatzer]] 11:42, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
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-	4 | |bd|pl|pl|nd| | | |=
-	3 | | |nl|bl|pl|nl| | |=
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-	3 | | |nl|bl|pl|nl| | |=
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	== c5 ==		== c5 ==
	{{Chess diagram small |=		{{Chess diagram small |=

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Revision as of 22:17, 11 July 2006

detailed history | current 3d view

	Ze	Us	consensus
1	d4	d5	56%
2	c4	e6	66%
3	Nc3	Bb4	48%
4	Nf3	Nf6	82%
5	e3	Ne4	56%
6	Qc2	f5	62%
7	Bd3	O-O	83%
8	O-O	b6	61%
9	a3	Bxc3	57%
10	bxc3	Ba6	65%
11	Ne5	Nd7	37%
12	Nc6	Qf6	89%
13	f3	Nd6	100%
14	e4	dxc4	100%
15	Be2	e5	100%
16	d5	Nb8	55%
17	Nb4	Bb7	93%
18	a4	a5	100%
19	Na2	Nd7	50%
20	Ba3	Rac8	50%
21	Rab1	Qg5	60%
22	Kh1	fxe4	61%
23	fxe4	Qg6	89%
24	Rxf8+	Rxf8	100%
25	Bxd6	Rf2	100%
26	Rg1	cxd6	100%
27	Qd1	Nf6	73%
28	Bf3	Nxe4	93%
29	Nc1	Rd2	53%
30	Bxe4	Rxd1	100%
31	Bxg6	Rxg1+	100%
32	Kxg1	hxg6	100%
33	Resign	---

Voting Closed

Today's Suggested Moves will be posted after Ze's broadcast, and the voting polls will open @7PM EDT and close at 12AM EDT, in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

• (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here

Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

• Cut and paste the following to vote:

# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 

Strategy Discussion

Contents 1 Voting Closed 2 Strategy Discussion 2.1 Suggested Move Summary 2.2 Speculative Move Discussion 2.3 Bb7 2.3.1 Discussion 2.3.2 Possible board positions 2.3.3 Votes 2.4 Ba6 2.4.1 Discussion 2.4.2 Possible board positions 2.5 Nf6 2.6 c5 2.7 c6

Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigade^rant

• Lets not trade the horse for a pawn if we dont have to. Lets figure out Ze's options & how to respond to them. Anyone think he is going to bring out that castle with our b6 covered like it is? Should we stage c-a6? -AnonHC

• Another option - and this sucks, a little - is to retreat with that Knight to f6 (hi, i'm new here) Jes5199 11:07, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I don't think our knight is under any legitimate pressure. Ze will not trade bishop + queen for knight + pawn, and an Ba6 move effectively negates an attack on our d5 pawn for purposes of later hitting the knight. - arc

Suggested Move Summary

Speculative Move Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Ba6	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Nf6	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 c5
Speculative Move Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 c6	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Bb7

Speculative Move Discussion

Bb7

Discussion

I think this this is our best possible move. It not only defends d5 but also allows for an interesting capture trade - which will be to our advantage. sepllcehck

• I think Ze is intentionally voting on crappy moves. - arc

• after 11. Nd2 where are we going? I see something like 11. Nd2 c6 12. cxd5 exd5 13. f3 Nxd2 14. Bxd2 It looks bad to me. There's no way to mobilize our knight, we're still behind in development, and that f pawn is going to drop. Kingpatzer 13:01, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

If ze makes a pawn response then we push the bishop - if ze goes passive then we attack with the pawn - ze will then have to retaliate with the bishop at that point we move our knight to g5 - we then have a very strong attacking stance. Don't worry about Nd2

• how? after 11. Nd2 what do you see happening? What specific moves? Because I see us ending up with a totally trashed pawn structure. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't see it, so please show me! Kingpatzer 13:40, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Forget it - I had a brain fart. I was working mentally rather than with a real board. I am definitely canceling my vote. Sorry about that. Ze would have to be an idiot to fall into the trap I was thinking.... .sepllcehck

Possible board positions

Speculative Line 1 10. bxc3 Bb7 11. cxd5 exd5 12. c4

Votes

1. VOTE by Thaddeus 12:58, 11 July 2006 (PDT): Development FTW!
   • Can they vote yet? Wophugus

Ba6

Discussion

• after bxc3 the only way for black to maintain equality is to pressurize white's center pawn mass so that he can't break the center open to his advantage. Ba6 is highly thematic of these types of pawn formations. This move is the only path to equality. An example game using this move is in the chess lobby Kingpatzer 10:50, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

* don't you mean Ba6? I'm confused.

• I like this move. It keeps us open, and defends the center. -christian

• So he takes d5 then we take bd3 then he takes the bishop with his queen... He ends up a pawn ahead and we end up with a pace advantage - which we have already rightnow.. Please educate me on how this move is supposed to work... sepllcehck

• if he takes on d5 he's making an overly agressive move that leads to a very even game. 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5 and we have a center with relatively immobile pawns for white (which impede his dark squared bishop) some great outposts for our two knights, and a very even game. I personally think that white's best response here is 11. Ne5, but that should hold no fear for us at this juncture. Kingpatzer 13:39, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Just a question, Kingpatzer - why 12. Qxd3 exd5 instead of 12. Qxd3 Qxd5?
    • (PS - the question mark is denoting my question, not chess notation :)
      • 13. c4 threatening the queen, forcing the queen to move anyway. At least that's the way I see it. There may be more relevant reasons but that is the first thing that occurred to me. salmancini
        • No, I think that's a good move... I have drawn up some boards... and this line is on #2, we could go back at Qb7 and that would be fine... but we have to look at 11. Ne5 as well! --gelbi^talk 15:12, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

• We need to put pressure on that c pawn to stop it moving. This is the only sensible move. All others leads to nastiness IMO. We also need to start covering the e5 square. It's completely Ze's right now. He has pressure on 3 of the 4 center squares. This move effectively removes Ze's c pawn pressure on d5 thus creating more of a balance in the center. We then have to eventually move the knight to d7 me thinks to try and start protecting the center at e5. V 15:12, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Possible board positions

Speculative Line 1 10. bxc3 Ba6 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5	Speculative Line 2 10. bxc3 Ba6 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 Qxd5 13. c4

Nf6

• This moves our knight out of the way. Why is this necessary?
• 11. cxd5 Qxd5 (exd5 drops the f pawn!) 12. c4 "and black's in desperate need of a good idea, or in chess notation +-" Kingpatzer 11:42, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

c5

I like this move because it threatens his pawn at d4. Suppose 11. xc5 xc5 - this opens up the diagonal for our queen. mayorcj^SR 12:19, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

• 11. cxd3 exd5 12. c4 Ba6 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. Bb2 Nd7 15. cxd5 and black is left with 2 isolated pawns (a and c) to white's isolated a pawn and passed (though perhaps too far advanced!) d pawn. This is going down a very dangerous path. I don't see how we make use of that diagonal easily because we're behind in development. I think it may be too early for us to encourage opening up the center. We need to catch up in development and make sure that however we open the center we do so in a way that keeps at least one of white's bishops bottled up. This however, does suggest that c6 might be playable here . . . 10. ... c6 11. cxd5 cxd5 12. c4 Ba6 looks solid enough. Kingpatzer 12:40, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

c6

• not as good as an immediate Ba6, but seems to do the job well enough via a different move order. 10. .. c6 11. cxd5 cxd5 12. c4 Ba6 is the critical line. All other moves for white at move 11 allow us latitude to respond. Does this move order create any issues or solve any problems that an immediate Ba6 doesn't? Kingpatzer 12:43, 11 July 2006 (PDT)