From zefrank

Voting CLOSED Until 7pm

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open Saturday, 5 August@7PM EDT and close at Monday, 7 August@12AM EDT (Sunday Night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Remember to check back even if you've already cast your vote! .. there's still some disagreement between potential moves .. and analysis will most likely continue up until Sunday night when the polls close. It's also not too late to submit a vote for another move that has not been evaluated yet .. (although it looks like we have most of the best move options available, people can always miss things).

• (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here

Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

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Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

Voting Instructions

Cut and paste the following to vote

# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 

• You may vote for many moves as you like, but only one vote per move.
• When voting closes, the move with the most votes wins.
• If there is a tie, whoever tallies the votes breaks the tie.

Strategy Discussion

Contents 1 Voting CLOSED Until 7pm 1.1 Voting Instructions 2 Strategy Discussion 2.1 Yesterday's Discussion about Qd1 2.2 Question 3 Suggested Move Summary 3.1 Nc5 3.2 Nf6 3.3 Qxe4 4 When we Win, should we buy Ze a Consolation Prize? 4.1 Buy Ze a Prize 4.2 Don't Buy Ze a Prize 5 MVP 5.1 Kingpatzer

Yesterday's Discussion about Qd1

The following is taken from yesterday's discussion of Ze's possible responses to 26. ... cxd6. PTWhipplebang 11:34, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

27...Nc5 or ...Nf6. Seem about the same to me. 27....Qxe4 28. Bf3 is annoying so let's wait to take the e4 pawn. Snark 14:22, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

• I think I like Nf6 a little bit more because it places the knight in a position that they could aid in a checkmate down the line, if for whatever reason we lay off e4.arc
  • Yeah, that's a good point. But the knight on c5 also attacks the pawn on a4. Snark 14:52, 3 August 2006 (PDT)
    • That's definitely the good thing about Nc5 vs Nf6. Nc5 is probably the better move for long term play, I'm thinking there should be a mate in here somewhere before the endgame though. The one thing about threatening a4 is that if we did move Nxa4, Ze's Qxa4 puts us in a bit (just a bit) of trouble. Of course, threatening isn't the same as taking, and it's easy enough to wait until his queen moves, which she'll have to at some point. arc
      • Well, I don't think there is a forced mate, unfortunately. We'll probably end up with exchanged queens about three connected passed pawns in the center. If Ze doesn't resign, that is. Snark 15:01, 3 August 2006 (PDT)
• 27....Qxe4 28. Bf3 Qc2 wins us at least one pawn. Geedubber 17:33, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigade^rant

Question

Is this the start of the "endgame". Or is it only an endgame when a king is being chased?--Neal 13:00, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

• opening/middle-game/end-game are somewhat subjective terms. I'd personally think of this as the late middle-game since we both have quite a number of pieces left. But others might call it the start of the end-game. "end game" is characterized by fewer pieces on the board and is typically dominated by pawn play over piece play. Kingpatzer 13:17, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Position Suggested Move: Nc5

Suggested Position Suggested Move: Nf6

Suggested Position Suggested Move: Qxe4

Nc5

This move puts pressure on two pawns, and advances our knight forward. In response, Bh5 would be my best guess, or maybe Nc1 to cover his pieces. Bh5 and we have to move our queen, and if we go Qxe4 he plays good old Bf3. arc

• 28.Bh5 isn't much of a threat. After ...Qg5 we retain are massive position. -Axl 12:28, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • The problem is there are no massive threats, so any potential plays we see as white are still losing plays. In Nc5 vs. Nf6, all roads leads to the same place that I can see. But I believe that if you count squares Ze has less options of safe moves after Nf6, which should at least count for something. arc
• with both this move and Nf6 the response to Bf3 would almost certainly be Nxe4. Is there any other plausible move for Ze other than Bf3 in response to either Nc5 or Nf6? Kingpatzer 12:12, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • I don't think he can do Bf3 immediately after any of these or Rxa2. arc
    • Dropping that knight doesn't cost him anything .. it's effectively dead anyway :) But actually I think Rxa2 is a MISTAKE! For example: 27. ... Nc5 (or Nf6) 28. Bf3 Rxa2? 29. Qb1 Rxa4 30. Qxb6 and he's going to have a little bit of activity for a spell. Compare that to 27. .. Nc5 (or Nf6) 28. Bf3 Nxe4 29. Re1 Rd2! Kingpatzer 12:22, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • Well, I don't think it's a mistake, but with your line I'd say it delays the inevitable a bit. I think that since we can do Nxe4 with either knight move that Nf6 makes more sense, just because we give ourselves the option to Rxa2 if he Bf3's. I think it's a very slight advantage.arc
        • I don't disagree that it seems more natural, but I don't see a continuation from Rxa2 that's better for us than Nxe4, so I'd disagree that there's an advantage to one move over the other based on that line. Kingpatzer 12:31, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• in the Nf6 thread the question is asked -- what about Bh5. Here's my thoughts: 27. .. Nc5 28. Bh5 Qxe4 29. Bf3 Qc2 and he is going to lose the knight anyway. So, instead of 29. Bf3 what other moves does he have? well . . .he can try 29. Nc1 when we respond 29. .. Bxd5 and he's WORSE OFF than if he had played Bf3 as far as I can tell, because now all of our pieces are in play against his king side. now 30. Bf3 or Qg4 are the only ways to stave off impending doom. But they all fail. Bf3 is met with RxB, and Qg4 is met with QxQ followed by Nxa4 after the recapture. Kingpatzer 12:29, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• Just out of curiosity, what do we do if: 27. ... Nc5(or Nf6) 28. Bxc4 ... Is our next move then 28. ... Nxe4 29. Bd3 Bxd5 30. Qe1? We're all assuming white will play Bf3, but if Nxe4 is what we are moving towards, then Bf3 isn't forced at all. Otis 13:07, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • Anyone got the answer to this line? Otis 13:14, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • I'm confused. 27. .. Nc1 isn't possible (black can't move Nc1 here). So I assume you mean 28. Nc1, but then you're missing a move for black prior to Bxc4, so I'm not sure what line you're asking about . . .Kingpatzer 13:19, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Sorry, meant Nc5, will correct. Otis 13:20, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • After 28 Nc1 we should rather play Qxe4 to protect the pawn c4
      • I guess what I am saying is Nc5 is preferable to Nf6 because of the potential of Bxc4. Nc5 prevents Bxc4 with the follow-on Bd3, because the knight can cover d3. Otis 13:27, 4 August 2006 (PDT) Otis 13:25, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
        • But how is Nc5 protecting from Bxc4? If we play Qe4 that will not matter
  • ok if 27. .. Nc5 28. Bxc4 Nxe4 29. h3 is more or less forced because the bishop is now on the wrong diagonal to defend. So now we play the very tricky 29. .. Rxa2! he can't recapture because of the threat of Nf2+ (winning the queen) so he has to play Q to either e1 or f3. When we play Rxa4 and we've won a piece and a pawn for a pawn. Threatening his bishop, and giving us the chance to swing the rook over to the king side to an even better square than it was on at f2! The same line happens with Nf6 as Nc5 here. There's no reason that I see to prefere one to the other. Bxc4 is possible in both, and it's equally bad. Kingpatzer 13:32, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • in both Nc5 and Nf6 in either line, Bd3?? leads to mate in 3! 29. .. Ng3+ 30. hxg3 Qh6+ 31. Qh5 Qxh5# Kingpatzer 13:35, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • But this is only if he plays Bd3? PTWhipplebang 13:45, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
        • Sort of :) let's say we get to this point: 27. .. Nc5/f6 28. Bxc4 Nxe4 29. He now has to make a move that either gives his king "luft" (space to move), prevents the Ng3+, or protects the d1-h5 diagonal. So he has a few options: h3, g3 or 4, and Qd3 all seem to prolong his death. There might be a few more I'm not seeing. But basically, he screws up with 28. Bxc4 because he needs that bishop to be on the d1-h5 diagonal, and oddly, at this point he just can't move it back, since 29. Bd2 Gives us the very straight-forward Rxe2! And he can't take back with the Queen because of that same mate threat: 30. Qxe2 Ng3+ 31. hxg3 Qh6+ 32. Qh5 Qh5# Kingpatzer 13:55, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • Excellent! Thank you, Patz! Otis 13:37, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• I can now pre-vote for either of these moves, lol! Thanks again, Patz. Please count this as my vote when the polls open. Otis 13:40, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

Nf6

This puts nice pressure on the e4 pawn, moves the knight forward, and also covers Bh5. I don't see many options for white here. arc

• This seems to cover more of our bases than Nc5. Plus, I like the idea of keeping the knight more on the kingside. PTWhipplebang 12:05, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • Agree Cubzas 12:07, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• I like this slightly better than Nc5 as it seems both more natural a square and I like that it is slightly more flexible for a kingside attack. However, c5 is a more advanced square. There may be some subtle reason to prefere one of these knight moves to the other, but I can't see any disadvantage to either. Kingpatzer 12:09, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • What do you think of Bh5 in the case of Nc5? It's not a very serious threat, but the one thing about this move is I can't really see anything he can do next move that will be effective. arc
    • That's one of the reasons I like this move better, it kind of neutralizes the Bh5 threat. PTWhipplebang 12:14, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
      • I don't see Bh5 as much of a threat now that his Q is on d1. In the case of Bh5 we just play Qxe4 no? Kingpatzer 12:17, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
        • The one thing about Bh5 is it lets him get his bishop off of row 2 without losing his knight to our rook. His e4 is dead no matter what, I think. Either way I don't see a very bright light at the end of Ze's tunnel, but i'm leaning towards this over Nc5 right now. arc
• This line is pretty nifty: 27...Nf6 28.Bf3 Nxe4 29.Nc1 Rc2! (Ze can't take because of Nf2+) 30.Rf1 (or 30.Bxe4 QxB with d5 falling next) 30...Nxc3 31. Qe1 (forced) e4. -Axl
• in both these lines (Nc5 and Nf6) there's a possibility of 28. Nc1 as an attempt by Ze to bring his knight back to life. I think in both cases it is met effectively by 28. ... Nxe4. Does anyone see a reason in the 28. Nc1 line to prefere Nc5 over Nf6 or vice-versa? Kingpatzer 12:35, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• 28. Nc1 Nxe4 29. Bf3 Ng3+ 30. hxg3 Qxg3 31. (whatever) Qh4++ No? Cubzas 12:37, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • and it works for Nc5 as well Cubzas 12:38, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • omg NO! Qxg3?? is a HUGE blunder, after 31. Rf1 white has life again! 31. Rf1 Rxf1+ 32. Qxf1 e4 Kingpatzer 12:40, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • You are right. Ehh - it souded so well.Cubzas 12:46, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• I guess I prefer Nf6 a little bit to Nc5. In both cases I think Nxe4 is our most likely next move so it doesn't matter too much. Snark 13:19, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• Please count this as my vote when the polls open. Otis 13:43, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• By the way, I think we ought to vote for our own MVP... My candidates are Kingpatzer, Jeff, Axl, and Snark. There are many others who have made valuable contributions, but these four stand out above the rest, in my opinion. Otis 13:45, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • Agree Cubzas 13:56, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • Lest I forget, the other MVP candidate is, of course, Ze himself... And how about a round-robin tourney amongst our top four players? I'd pay to watch Kingpatzer, Snark, Axl and Jeff square off. The prize money we pledged to Ze can go towards a book for the winner of the round-robin tourney. Otis 13:58, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

Qxe4

As Snark points out above, the move of Bf3 is annoying, though we are at least taking care of that pawn. arc

• i don't know that Bf3 is annoying, as we can simply play Qd3. However, it doesn't seem nearly as good as Nf6 or Nc5. With the knight moves we are bringing more firepower to the game and Ze is starting to feel his material disadvantage (both being pawns down and having a knight effectively out of the game). This just seems to me to be a weaker move. Kingpatzer 12:14, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
  • I also don't like putting us into a position where we are likely to trade queens. Sure it will happen eventually, but the queen gives us a better opportunity to mate sooner, if Ze slips up. arc
  • I'm not oppossed to trading down, after all we have a winning material advantage at this point. But why lessen the pressure? Kingpatzer 12:44, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
    • The more up we are on material when we trade down the happier I'll be. arc

When we Win, should we buy Ze a Consolation Prize?

WTF is up with the 'IF'? Kingpatzer 12:36, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

• I was trying to be polite. I now see the error in my ways. PTWhipplebang 12:45, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

The following was suggested and discussed yesterday. PTWhipplebang 12:11, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

Anyone want to vote on if we buy Ze a consolation prize for letting us have this much fun? I haven't pledged yet, but I'll toss in a few bucks to get him one of his books anyway. This game has been a hoot. I realize we don't have to, after all, he's lost (well not yet, but soon), but it'd be kind of cool to treat him to something off his list for letting us have all this fun. Kingpatzer 17:58, 3 August 2006 (PDT)

• Why not Das Max und Moritz Buch? It's what we were going to buy him when we weren't sure how much money we could raise. Heh...that sounds funny now. PTWhipplebang 18:04, 3 August 2006 (PDT)
  • Also, I don't think it makes much sense to buy him something too expensive, since technically we don't owe him anything. PTWhipplebang 18:06, 3 August 2006 (PDT)
  • Sounds like a good plan. Lets set up voting for this. It's very arrogant to work on a consolation prize before we have won, that's why I love the idea. arc
• I would definitely kick in something for the consolation prize. I think that's a great idea. This has been fun! Snark
• I agree, I mean after all, he brings a few minuets of quality entertainment to us for free every day. M4cfr34k 02:08, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
• Me too. I haven't been participating, or even following very closely (no time), but it has been fun to watch it progress. I'll kick in. --Sford 09:10, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

• This discussion actually already has a pledge page here.

Buy Ze a Prize

1. VOTE by PTWhipplebang 12:11, 4 August 2006 (PDT): I've had a great time playing and I think it would be nice to show Ze our appreciation.
2. VOTE by Kingpatzer 12:15, 4 August 2006 (PDT) : I agree. I've had a blast. It wouldn't hurt to show Ze we appreciate him taking his beating like a sugartit, er man.
3. VOTE by Cubzas 12:21, 4 August 2006 (PDT) We have fun, don't we? Let's thank Ze.
4. VOTE by Arc 3:25, 4 August 2006 (EST) I want the amazon gift card to say "Thanks sugartits!"
5. VOTE by Cubzas 12:21, 4 August 2006 (PDT) We have fun, don't we? Let's thank Ze.
6. VOTE by Snark 13:21, 4 August 2006 (PDT)
7. VOTE by Otis 14:04, 4 August 2006 (PDT) Sure, but I think it would be great to split the pledge money amongst Ze and the winner of a round-robin tourney of our top four players as voted upon by ourselves. Otis 14:04, 4 August 2006 (PDT)

Don't Buy Ze a Prize

1. VOTE - 66.47.159.86 12:40, 4 August 2006 (PDT) He lost! We win! The League of Awesomeness has no mercy! I'll buy him a prize for something else, but this is our victory! You don't lose money when you win. Except when you get married, but...

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MVP

Kingpatzer

1. VOTE by Cubzas 13:55, 4 August 2006 (PDT)