Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move3

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* I vote for Nf6. By making this move, we will be developing our knight and protecting our pawn at d5. [[User:Lael|Lael]] 18:07, 27 June 2006 (PDT) * I vote for Nf6. By making this move, we will be developing our knight and protecting our pawn at d5. [[User:Lael|Lael]] 18:07, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
{{clear}} {{clear}}
 +
 +== d5-d4 Pawn takes Pawn ==
 +
 +Why not? It takes our piece out of danger and we get to draw first blood. It doesn't set anything up, but neither does it make us vulnerable to anything, or commit us to a specific line of attack.

Revision as of 01:24, 28 June 2006

Current Position

Current Board Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last move: 3. Nc3

Contents


Our Current Position is the Queen's Gambit Declined. Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. The knight also threatens d5, how do we respond? Here is a fun chess opening explorer.


Strategy Discussion

I would try the Nimzo-Indian defense. move the pawn from C7 to C6

Allow me to put this forward: We need to keep to simple lines and basic strategy/tactics until we get through the opening. If it turns into a complex game, then we can rise to the occasion and forment proper responses, however, I have a feeling that this one will end up very bloody (i.e. many pieces traded off), in which case we should fight for position and a winning endgame. Brigade 13:13, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Both the c5 and c6 moves are purly deffensive leaving the initiative with white. I suggest we follow the Bb4 as it forces white to go on the defense and allows us time to develope more pieces. ~Mec

I strongly discourage the Bb4 move. He's not going to do Qa4+ in response, because it's so easy to stop and puts him in a very crappy spot. He'll respond with a3, and we'll either have to back out and lose a tempo or start an exchange that leaves us down a bishop with an open pawn structure. Neither of these is going to lead to a tenable attack. We should go with Tarrasch or Semi-Slav (which would be either c6 or Nf6) and wait for him to slip.


Bb4 - Nimzo-Indian Defense (or perverse Nimzo-slavic hybrid)

Speculative Board Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Speculative move: 3. ... Bb4

Ze is trying to force black to a defensive position, allowing himself the ability to setup his pieces in preperation for an attack on the center board. To disrupt his strategy, Bishop to B4 will pin his knight, forcing him to make a second move to free his knight or attack our bishop. (Seconded)

  • While this isn't necessarily a valid argument by itself, might I point out that no chess master has ever seen fit to follow "3. Nc3" with "Bb4". How do I make this claim? Well, primarily because I just searched the entire listing of known opening sequences. So, I will momentarily allow myself to think, since Ze isn't allowed to right now: this could be GOOD in that there isn't any script for Ze to refer to after "3. Nc3 Bb4", or it could be BAD because, since none of the really good players have ever seen fit to use it, something must inherently be wrong with the play. Furthermore, this isn't the Nimzo-Indian defense, its some sort of perverse Nimzo-slavic hybrid. (post note, further research has yielded four tournament games where this sequence appears, however, it's obviously very rare, and white has won 3 of the games)
You need to use a better database - e.g. the opening explorer already mentioned above shows that this move has been used in 219 games, some of which have between top grandmasters - e.g. this Shirov-Lautier 1994 game - Hayne 16:37, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
Actually, I have to admit, this isn't so obscure. Judit Polgar plays it, usually loses, but still... Here is a game when it grows out of a sicilian: [1]. I apologize then, I'm therefore very happy with whatever move you guys do :) --Gelbitalk 17:15, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Voting

  • This is my favorite response as well. Whether he attempts to harry the bishop with the pawn or the queen, we have a strong response. I vote for Bb4. --128.61.49.42 13:25, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • i like Bb4, also. i'm still learning, but it feels like a strong move.Ann 13:53, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • I second, Bb4 is a sound move. All others moves so far suggested will cause us to basically lose a turn while we hunker down into a defence game. I'm not saying we need to go berserker and take position at any cost, but we cannot allow Ze to gain a turn advantage and "lap" us.
  • As if it wasn't already obvious .. (i've been arguing for this line all afternoon below) this is my preferred response. :-) Brigade 15:09, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • Bb4 sounds good to me. :)
  • add one vote for Bb4!
  • I especailly like the idea if the queen decides to put us in check, we can still develop a knight instead of wating a turn. B4! (that and the pinning) --Funky citrus 16:21, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • I vote for this one too. This is the most sound move that maximises the chance of a tactical game, and that means great taunting possibilities. Pseudonym 17:15, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • I vote for this one as well it makes it so the queen has very few choices to move without it being taken.
  • It works in theory but doesn't leave us open for much, mainly because we can't take his knight, but it does force him to respond to us and start playing our game.
    • Question, is above comment a vote or just a comment? If a vote, please note this.

Possible continuation: 4. Qa4+

What about the probable response 4. Qa4+, I don't know this path... --Gelbitalk 12:55, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

  • This is the kind of move I would make, and as an amateur would get soundly trounced for it. Gelbitalk is right on the money. Almost any scenario forces us to spend turns retreating the bishop to a more tenable position. However, I'm interested in hearing thoughts on 4. Qa4+ Nc6? Obvious response seems to be 5. a2-a3, back to square one. --Medwards 13:19, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • 4. Qa4+ Nc6 .. covers the bishop, free development of our Knight, and his Queen Knight is still pinned. Bb4 is the proper line. Suckling teat, indeed .. Brigade 13:08, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
    • And in response I would say 4. ... a2-a3, what happens next Brigade? medwardstalk
      • See below. Way ahead of ya. (Assuming you meant white to move a3, since black can't move a pawn from a2-a3.)  :-)
        • No, the text below talks about a2-a3 as the INITIAL response to the intrusion of our bishop. I'm talking about supplementary to the Queen forcing the knight out. See: 4. Qa4+ Nc6 5. a2-a3 ??? 6. Qxb4. What happens in ???, putting c7-c5 seems alright but it feels like there will be too many powderkegs on the board. (see picture "after the exchange")
  • 5. a3 Bxc6 .. his pawns will be as below except our knight is developed and his queen is on the board.
  • Then b7 b5.
  • Loses the bishop to Qxb4
Speculative Board position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
3. .. Bb4 4. Qa4+ Nc6
After the Exchange
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
3. .. Bb4 4. Qa4+ Nc6 5. a3 Bxc3 6. bxc3

Possible continuation: 4. a2-a3

Speculative Board Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Board Position after proposed line: 3. .. Bb4 4. a3 Bxc3 5. bxc3

He does not have to move Qa4+ to threaten the Bb4 move, he could simply move a2 to a3. We could still cover with Nc6, but then he could force us to use a knight and a bishop to hold down one of his knights, which doesn't sound like a great exchange to me. We could also respond with a7 to a5, but I'll admit I'm not sure where that would lead.

  • a5 would look like this: 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. a3 a5 5. axb4 (what's the point of covering if you can't recapture) axb4 6. Rxa8 (and we either lose another piece or have stuff pinned at the back, depending on how wily Ze is). If we cover with Nc6: 5. axb4 Nxb4 opens his rook. (reid)
  • Here's the line you're proposing: 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. a3 Bxc3 5. bxc3 and will end up destroying his Queenside pawns, and double his pawns on the C rank. If you can't visualize it, I'll throw up another board someplace for you to take a look. Trust us, Bb4 is the move. Brigade 13:19, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
-> 5. bxc3 (?) 6. cxd5 and his problem goes away. Taking out this many pawns also means we'll probably miss that bishop more than he'll miss his knight. (reid)
  • Here is an example of this sequence usedin a tournament. [2] (second game down). White doesn't seem much troubled by the stacked pawns, in fact uses them to great effect to clear the center of the board.--Salamander 14:31, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • That sequence is 4. Nf3 not 4. a3 .. but to answer your question after 4. Nf3 Nc6, developing another piece and preparing to castle .. playing c5 is risky and didn't pay off. Whomever was playing black was playing recklessly in that game. (6. .. Qc7 was the nail in the coffin for him, lost a pawn on that move) Brigade
  • another example, again second game down. White wins again. [3]--Salamander 14:39, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • That game was lost in the endgame after black lost a pawn on move 27 (Rxg6) and his endgame fell apart .. up until then it was an even game (material wise) .. Black lost that on on position.
  • I don't think this is a sound departure from common opening lines. Especially looking at these pictures. We have exchanged our bishop for a knight in a very open board. At any time he can exchange the pawn which means he has in effect exchanged his b pawn for a central pawn. This is against my positional intuition. --Gelbitalk 16:09, 27 June 2006 (PDT)


Other continuations

There are some less aggressive options where white just continues to develop and increases its hold on the center... they all look pretty solid (I meant mainly for white, but it's not that bad for black either).

Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
3. .. Bb4 4. Nf3
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
3. .. Bb4 4. e3


c6 - Semi-Slav Defense


Speculative Board Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Speculative move: 3. ... c7-c6

let him slay himself upon our pikes!

  • This is a truly dreadful move that immediately saddles us with a bad bishop AND a knight that will end up on the rim (dim.) If I were white I'd never ever take the pawn at d5, instead I'd be thrilled to saddle you with two crippled pieces that should be just entering the fray.
    • I don't understand: Bishop on c8 was already fubared by e6, Bishop on f8 still has an open line. --Medwards 13:25, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • This is Semi-Slav Defense, and I concur. In particular I'm worried about avoiding a 4. Qa4 (check) --Medwards 13:19, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • I hope he tries Qa4 .. he'll be developing his queen too early, and we'll eat it for free. Watch and see. ^^ Brigade 13:21, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Voting

  • medwardstalk: I vote for a preventative strike agains 4. Qa4+. I'd rather see this or c5 (Tarrasch Defense) before I'd take the Nimzo-Slav mutant above.
  • Gelbitalk: Yes, this is probably my first preference... it is in my opinion the most agressive move!!
  • mayorcj: Agreed, I think that the pawns should be utilized to the fullest!

c5 - Tarrasch Defense


Speculative Board Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Speculative move: 3. ... c7-c5

c5 moves into the Tarrasch Defense instead of the typical Orthodox defense that derives from Bb4, where, in the end, all we get is an exchange of peices with White having the advantage in the center. Tarrasch defense gives Black a chance to hold the center.

  • Discussion on Wikipedia regarding Tarrasch Defense notes that while we get increased mobility and hold the middle, we sacrifice support for the forward pawn.--Medwards 13:19, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
    • Support for the forward pawn is lost, true, but the Wikipedia discussion notes that it is a sound strategy that can stil be defended into a draw even if no long term offensive gain can be held from the move. However, if the exposed pawn is too concerning, Nf6, listed below, gives some of the Tarrasch advantages without isolating the pawn.
      • Yup, just making sure voters are aware of what the next couple of turns will look like.--Medwards 13:19, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Voting

  • i second this move! we save our N, too. -ash.


Nf6 -- Orthodox variation


Speculative Board Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Speculative move: 3. ... Nf6

Nf6 gives us the option of keeping an orthodox exchange variation depending of Ze's next move, but also allows us to use the Semi-Tarrasch defense if Ze's move 4 is Nf3.

  • This is the line that is the most frequently played according to the above opening explorer and is refered to in wikipedia as the Orthodox variation, which was despised by Tarrasch, who prefered the variation with his own name. I would also prefer a variation with my name. --Gelbitalk 14:05, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • Please bear in mind that if we make this move, we're losing time. We'll be forced to respond to Ze .. we want him to play OUR game, not play his game. Plus, that pawn is already protected (by our pawn and queen) .. this doesn't gain anything (aside from developing the Knight) and should be postponed. 4. Qa4+ completely locks up our bishop and/or knight (our only responses are 4. .. c6 (locks our Queen Knight and Bishop), 4 .. Nc6 (Pinning OUR Knight) or 4 .. Bd7 (counter-threat his queen, which could play out either good OR bad)Brigade
  • I don't agree with this losing time argument. We are black and we don't have the initiative, trying to gain tempo will come at a cost. This is a more conservative development move. Playing 4. Qa4+ in this position is a mistake, as 4 .. Nc6 is very good, I don't see anything bad in it. --Gelbitalk 17:37, 27 June 2006 (PDT)

Voting

  • i vote YES. Nf6 is a flexybile move allowing greatest variation W/O forcing us into a hypermodern sissy opening like the nimrod-injun. Nerfquark
  • Vote. But if no one else likes this, I'll go for c5. --HelloMike 14:10, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • I proposed this move yesterday, and I still like it. Agree about taking initiative away from white (e.g. Bb4), but let's see if he stumbles first. voodooboy 14:36, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • I vote for this one, we need to develop some pieces and this seems sound.
  • This leaves many options open, and is the most common response. Can't go wrong! --Gelbitalk 16:11, 27 June 2006 (PDT)
  • Move.VoteCount++ on account of me.
  • I vote for this one and the nimzo-indian can be used next to escalate pressure Ze is but one person and we are the chosen of the league of Awesomness. [Anonant][4]
  • I vote for Nf6. By making this move, we will be developing our knight and protecting our pawn at d5. Lael 18:07, 27 June 2006 (PDT)


d5-d4 Pawn takes Pawn

Why not? It takes our piece out of danger and we get to draw first blood. It doesn't set anything up, but neither does it make us vulnerable to anything, or commit us to a specific line of attack.

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