Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move5

From zefrank

Jump to: navigation, search
detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---


Strategy Discussion

Current board position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last move: 5. e3 ...

Contents


Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. The c3 knight no longer threatens d5, as our b4 Bishop has it pinned to his king.

Ze moved e3, defending a pawn that isn't being attacked, and his Knight on c3 is vulnerable to attack. Here is a fun chess opening explorer - although note that you cannot explore past move 3.

Housekeeping note: When you see a {{clear}} that indicates the end of the section. Posting below it may make it difficult to see your comment as it will be a line of text very far away from the main body. medwardstalk

Another note: When voting, could we use # instead of * ? It would make it easier to count the votes. This is really requested out of pure laziness, I know. mayorcjSR 12:55, 29 June 2006 (PDT)

  • So was my clear note, I was just getting tired of moving votes! I'm assuming # creates numbered bullet points rather than the anonymous ones we have now? medwardstalk
  • I think '#' automagically adjusts depending on the number of entries, so even if a vote is later moved/removed/changed, the numbering will still properly reflect. ßrigaderant


Sugggested Moves

Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Castle Kingside: 5. e3 O-O
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Hard Charging: 5. e3 Ne4
Suggested Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Late Tarrasch Defense: 5. e3 c5

Speculative Move - O-O (Castle Kingside)

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Speculative Move: 5. e3 O-O
  • Unless he decides to trade pawns, castle. muyfabulosotalk 23:59, 28 June 2006 (PDT)
    I'd say let's see what he does first .. if he advances his bishop, then we should castle. If he doesn't make an offensive move, let's further develop. We don't want to castle to one side or the other until we establish how he's setting up his offensive. ßrigaderant
    Changed my mind .. let's not speculate on "what his move will be" in case he's reading through the wiki .. don't want to show our hand and help him avoid a fatal mistake.  :-)
  • Yeah, probably not a good idea to mention things _before_ our move. Now that he has moved, I would advocate against castling. It seems a little too early, and there is more potential to get our pieces into play. -arc
  • It's too early to castle .. he can't place us into check so there's no rush. Better for us to gut him while we can (See Ne4 Suggestion below)
  • Speculating one move ahead isn't giving away much; it's probably impossible to have an intelligent discussion about the midgame without talking 5 moves ahead, let alone one. Besides, there's no way to predict what the community will vote on. Even if castle is the "correct" move (I'm not saying it is), people may want to take it in a different direction entirely through whimsy, incompetence, or even better strategy. Think about it this way: if he moved e3 in order to get us to castle, then we've manipulated him into doing something. There's a game-within-a-game here and talking about moves (or even providing false debate that he follows and gets confused by) might be the way to gain advantage. All that said, I won't post again like this, but I'd encourage other fabulosos to consider the option. muyfabulosotalk
  • Historically, castling in this position works better for black than pushing the knight... although, personally, I'm still in favor of pushing the knight.

Voting

  1. I vanna vote fur dis one, eh Nerfquark



Speculative Move - Ne4

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Speculative Move: 5. e3 Ne4

Watch out! Hard-chargers have challanged this move! Defend it our crush it on this page!

Watch out! N to e4 and escalating pressure!

  • I don't feel this is the case. How is pressure escalating? It is not. It leaves us with semi-developed peices and a bishop in danger. mayorcjSR
  • this places us at the offensive allowing us to develop more in later moves. --Funky citrus 11:57, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
    • How can you go on the offensive when all the troops havn't arrived yet? mayorcjSR
      • Instead of thinking it as "going on the offensive" read it moreso as 'securing an advanced post' .. we're not looking to mate him yet, just keep him under our thumb.
  • If we're trying to bleed him, this secures a knight-for-knight trade. Otherwise, it's pressure.
  • what if he doesn't buy into the pressure? what if he ignores it and continues to develop his peices?
  • THIS is the move .. he'll be forced to respond defensively or suffer devastating losses. Anyone that knows chess theory, please just agree with me instead of specifically stating what our next move will be .. in case Ze's surfing the wiki .. :-) I know this might be asking a bit, but just TRUST ME on this one. Please. It'll hurt him .. BAD. ßrigaderant 12:11, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
    • Someone very intelligently pointed out that playing out a game with intent to entrap the opponent isn't the soundest strategy. What's to stop Ze from playing out 2-3 turns out on his own, seeing the trap, and wasting our move? medwardstalk
      • It's not a 'trap' per se .. it's a potential move. And this move in and of itself is an excellent move. It places our Knight at an advanced post, and THREATENS several possible 'traps' .. forcing Ze to respond defensively and allowing us to further develop at his expense. He can't threaten our Knight easily (his own Knight blocks a pawn advance) .. it's not just a fancy 'trap,' it's sound chess tactical theory.
        • OK, lets forget Ze's spying: What about 6. Bd3 ??? medwardstalk
          • Ok .. 6. Bd3, Nxc3 7. bxc3 (or we have a free knight), Bxc3+ (winning his Rook) ßrigaderant
          • Ze?
      • Restored, was originally attached to the first vote: he moves the knight you get his queen
        • Uh... His queen isn't capture-able by our knight in this scenario. medwardstalk
          • No, but this does set up a possible queen/rook fork a couple moves in.
            • I still don't see where this goes. He has to move his king for that fork not to be a pointless waste of our knight. I honestly don't see the short-term goal of this move, and no one is talking about how it benefits us in the long term. medwardstalk
              • There is no fork, we will lose the knight in a trade and be left with a dismal position! mayorcjSR
                • This move is not good at all. This premature attack is easy to counter and forfeits defense. ~NaMorris
                  • Eh, the knight is still in a move to have quite an affect on defense. I haven't voted yet because to some extent I believe this way, but I have seen no other propositions that I like better. -arc

If you are reading this it is not too late to change your move! Sports racers, if you voted to push in for the attack because "everyone was doing it" now is your time to move against the grain! Sure this will put pressure but where do we go from there? Our best bet is C5, and every chess analyzer I have checked has agreed with this. No where could I find a suggestion of pushing the knight in. Sure its a cool idea to fork the rook and queen, but right now its just not feasable! be patient and develop more peices, then put on the pressure. THIS is NOT the move. mayorcjSR

  • Ignore the king-side queen/rook fork. It's not important. This move is good for Nxc3. Imagine it forward from there. There are only three real responses open to Ze after Nxc3; one of them leads to losing a rook, one leads to losing his queen, the other is fairly neutral. I outlined this in the discussion of last game if you care to view (but Ze, you're not allowed). --128.61.49.42 15:00, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
  • Now, mayorcj, do you still think my idea that only stake-holders should vote is an insane idea. I mean look at the votes below, half of them unsigned, but I have a better idea that doesn't have to do with money... I have moved the ideas of improving voting here. --gelbitalk 15:56, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
  • Major .. TRUST ME on this one .. it's a valid move, and any decently read/ranked chess afficianado will tell you for true. We lose nothing, and have a lot to gain. Man .. i dearly hope I don't have to talk you into a 'classic bishop/queen' sacrifice for forced mate later on .. that'll be even more of an uphill battle.  :-) .. ßrigaderant
  • Brigade, I'm sorry, but "trust me" is not good enough. If I'm a little slow on accepting this move it's because I'm at best considered amateur. I need to see a sequence of moves that is plausible and reasons the sequence won't go a different way before I'm going to get in your camp (not that you need me, you're overwhelming in the polls now). Faith is for religion, not my online community chess. medwardstalk

Voting

  1. YES!
  2. THIS is the move. Trust me on this one.  :-) ßrigaderant 12:15, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
  3. Absolutely! Victory will be ours.--SirPentor 12:19, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
  4. VOTE - starts Ze a'running for safety. Me likey. -Mike
  5. The voices in my head tell me this is the like best move. J
  6. Vote - sepll cehck
  7. VOTE - His only power-pieces on the board are the knights, and they dont make a line of czech. I would suggest holding off on the castling, and drawing more of his pieces to our queens side of the board. His pawn-move says thats where he is putting his bishop. Its always a good thing to get our pieces into action when he isnt getting his pieces into action. AnonHC
  8. Vote - Even if he sees through it, it puts him in the position of reacting to us. He who says zonk 13:10, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
  9. Vote - kraki
  10. Vote - This is a solid offensive move. Make Ze play our game. Jnu 13:18, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
  11. Vote - It looks delicious! -Adam
  12. Vote- Somebody stole mine (my vote post without a name :P) earlier. ChaiSpaghetti 13:52, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
  13. Vote - he shall reap the whirlwind.bobbie_mactalk
  14. Vote - FTW
  15. Vote - Solid move
  16. Vote - Hey, It lets the queen out, and puts on pressure. Juicy and Cruncy, I like that. --Funky citrus 15:40, 29 June 2006 (PDT)


c5

Late Tarrasch Defense - Our POV
Image:chess_zhor_26-flip.png
Image:chess_zver_26_flip.png
h1 g1 f1 e1 d1 c1 b1 a1
h2 g2 f2 e2 d2 c2 b2 a2
h3 g3 f3 e3 d3 c3 b3 a3
h4 g4 f4 e4 d4 c4 b4 a4
h5 g5 f5 e5 d5 c5 b5 a5
h6 g6 f6 e6 d6 c6 b6 a6
h7 g7 f7 e7 d7 c7 b7 a7
h8 g8 f8 e8 d8 c8 b8 a8
Image:chess_zver_26_flip.png
Image:chess_zhor_26-flip.png
Speculative Move: 5. e3 c5


Late Tarrasch Defense - Standard POV
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Speculative Move: 5. e3 c5
  • Kind of a late-point Tarrasch Defense idea. I like the idea of pushing the knight in, but I'd like to see some more pieces supporting the middle before we go hard-charging in. Thoughts? medwardstalk
    • Uh .. could you turn the board around? Kindof makes it a bit confusing.
      • Done. They're both there, I kind of like seeing things from our POV medwardstalk
  • We risk either losing a pawn, or pulling our bishop off the pin on his Knight and losing it. Better to leave the bishop there unless it's forced off. Here's a progression of moves for you:
5. e3 c5
6. a3 Ba5 <-- Only other option is Bxc3, trading for his knight
7. b4 Bb6
8. dxc5 <-- Bishop is lost, and we're down a pawn
  • Let's keep him playing OUR game. We own tempo and he's responding to our moves (BIG advantage for black) ßrigaderant
    • Fair enough, but I'm still super-uncomfortable with pushing the knight in with as little support as it has (though I appear to generally be in the minority, you seem unseasonably good at exhorting the majority to your side! :P ). Going to add some more speculation into your side in a sec.medwardstalk
  • This makes me nervous because although we protect the bishop we also close off his diagonal retreat. --voodooboy 16:46, 29 June 2006 (PDT)


Voting

  1. VOTE by mayorcjSR: I think this is the best way to go. We need more support before we go in for a strike. If we go through with the "trap" as mentioned with the Knight advancement we'll only be setting up for an exchange that will leave us with no forward momentum. Let Ze make first strike so that he might suffer doubly in his blunders.
  • I think you are going to need to be a little more convincing. Sorry, I just don't like this move. -arc
  1. I vote here too. Better foundation, and we don't have to use the bishop if we don't want to, since in a normal Tarrasch it isn't there anyway. --Salamander 13:26, 29 June 2006 (PDT)
  2. My vote goes here. We need to develop, not attack.
  3. Patience sports racers. I’ve lost a lot of chess games not having it! Develop the pieces and let Ze impale himself on a good foundation. I vote for this move. Dan-o
  4. Vote-wophugus


Further Speculation

  • Speculative move 5. e3 Nf6
    • Uh .. our knight is already on f6. This isn't a move
  • we should also think about where to put our bishop when the inevitable a3 happens.
    • See discussion above, either we're forced to capture his knight, or forced to retreat.
Personal tools