From zefrank

detailed history | current 3d view

	Ze	Us	consensus
1	d4	d5	56%
2	c4	e6	66%
3	Nc3	Bb4	48%
4	Nf3	Nf6	82%
5	e3	Ne4	56%
6	Qc2	f5	62%
7	Bd3	O-O	83%
8	O-O	b6	61%
9	a3	Bxc3	57%
10	bxc3	Ba6	65%
11	Ne5	Nd7	37%
12	Nc6	Qf6	89%
13	f3	Nd6	100%
14	e4	dxc4	100%
15	Be2	e5	100%
16	d5	Nb8	55%
17	Nb4	Bb7	93%
18	a4	a5	100%
19	Na2	Nd7	50%
20	Ba3	Rac8	50%
21	Rab1	Qg5	60%
22	Kh1	fxe4	61%
23	fxe4	Qg6	89%
24	Rxf8+	Rxf8	100%
25	Bxd6	Rf2	100%
26	Rg1	cxd6	100%
27	Qd1	Nf6	73%
28	Bf3	Nxe4	93%
29	Nc1	Rd2	53%
30	Bxe4	Rxd1	100%
31	Bxg6	Rxg1+	100%
32	Kxg1	hxg6	100%
33	Resign	---

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Strategy Discussion

Contents 1 Strategy Discussion 2 Suggested Move Summary 2.1 c6 2.2 Bxc3 2.3 Nc6 2.4 Nxc3 2.5 Ng5 2.6 b6 2.6.1 Voting 2.7 Qe8 2.8 Kh8 2.9 Ba5

Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. Ze has castled, so the c3 knight threatens d5 (protected by e6 and our queen) and our knight on e4 (protected by d5 and f5). We have also advanced our Knight to f3 in preparation to possibly assault Ze's position. Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegametactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigade^rant

One thing to consider when suggesting a move is that in the middlegame, a move needs to have a plan behind it. Try to give justification for a move in a speculative set of moves. What is the best response? What happens after that? What are the strategic goals (how will the pieces be deployed at the end of the sequence of moves you envision?) And what tactics will make it possible (what are the exact moves that will get there?) Successfull middlegame play requires analysis of each move. You don't have to do this to suggest a move. But the more insight you provide into your reasoning for considering an idea, the more focused the analysis that happens for that move can be. Kingpatzer

Suggested Move Summary

Suggested Move Suggested Move: 8. O-O c6	Suggested Move Suggested Move: 8. O-O Bxc3	Suggested Move Suggested Move: 8. 0-0 Nc6
Suggested Move Suggested Move: 8. 0-0 Nxc3	Speculative Position Last Move: 8. 0-0 Ng5	Suggested Move Suggested Move: 8. O-O b6
Suggested Move Suggested Move: 8. O-O Qe8	Suggested Move Suggested Move: 8. O-O Kh8

c6

• solidifies center and takes the sting out of a future Ne5 move by white Kingpatzer 11:43, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Also, btw, a move that occurs several times in my database of GM games with good results Kingpatzer 14:40, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• bottles up our knight and bishop in order to provide a bit of pawn support.
  • actually this frees up the bishop to attack white's C pawn via Ba6 -- a common enough theme in games with this type of structure
• I don't see a time loss here. I actually see problems with our structure that I'm trying to address. Possible response lines:

- 9. Ne2 Bd6 10. b3 Qf6 11. a4 b6 and we've covered our glaring weaknesses, solidified our pawn structure, and now we can start doing things like Ba6 (attacking c5) and Nd7-g6

- 9. Bd2 Bd6 10. Ne2 b6 looks reasonable, but also 9. ... Nxd2 10. Qxd2 Nd7 11. Qc2 Nf6 is a good posiiblity

- 9. a3 Bd6 10. b4 b6 and we're solid and ready to play either Ba6 or Nd7 as the next choice by white dictates

- in all these lines black is fine. We have a solid, active position with lots of choices on how to respond to white. We're maintaining our space and addressing structural weaknesses. We aren't creating weaknesses on the premise of attack. Remember, you can only attack in chess when your opponent has made a mistake. So far, ze's position is free from weaknesses we can target, so we want to remain solid but fluid. This does that. It allows us to attack c4 with the bishop, it allows us to play the knight into b4 if that oporuntity presents itself, it supports using the e & f pawns as weapons if the chance arises. Kingpatzer 12:56, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

• Only problem I have with your potential lines is you're guessing Ze's response on move 10 .. and those are all weak responses. The best move for him would be 9. c5 and we lose a move trading our bishop, while he has a stranglehold on the center. If we move our bishop, we CANNOT move to Bd6 while his pawn is a threat. ßrigade^rant
  • 9. Bd2 Bd6 10. c5 is good for black We should be very happy if white decides to weaken his pawn chain by over-advancing and locking up the position. That reduces possibilities for Ze and worsens his position while doing nothing bad to us. In a closed board tempo isn't everything -- and is certainly worth far less than having a good pawn lever in the center. Continueing: 10. ... Bc7 11. Ne2 (b4 is possible but good for us) Nd7 12. Nf4 Qe7 13. Bb4 e5 14. dxe5 Nxe5 15. Nx35 Bxe5 16.f3 Ng5 and black has a significant advantage given that white can't possibly support that c5 pawn all game. Kingpatzer 13:16, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
    • How is c5 good for black? We'll have NO pieces on the left side of the board, and he's completely locked us out from attacking his Queenside! He can advance pieces and/or pawns to shore up his defenses and take us apart slowly! Also remember that we HAVE to trade off our bishop for his knight, or we'll lose it to a3 and b4. You are assuming that Ze will move Bd2 .. this board is what his best response would be .. take a look.ßrigade^rant
      • because after 10. c5 white's pawns are immobile he has no way to leverage open the center using his pawns. Because we ARE under-developed this is to our benefit and to white's detriment. It is at best drawish chess and it fails to take advantage of his best features. And the head of the pawn chain is a target we can attack with a future b6 at a time of our choosing. After 10. c5 Bc7 black is solidly positioned and white is without a paln. His pieces are positioned for center or queen-side play but there are no targets for him to play against. He has to waste far more than a single tempo either enticing us to open up the queen side to give him targets or manuvouring to the king side. In either case, it's to our advantage. Go play over a few master level d4 games and you'll notice that white almost never advances c5. There's a reason. It's a bad move for white. Kingpatzer 13:47, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
      • if white plays an immediate 9. c5 (instead of 9. Bd2 Bd6 10. c5) it's GREAT for black. Now, an immedate 9. ... b6 puts white in a bind. he doesn't want to have to deal with isolated pawns so he more or less has to capture with 10. cxb when 10. ... axb gives our rook access to the Queenside, making a future Ba6 even stronger. Moreover, now we can play c5 when the end result is that black has gained more space than white, and it will result in black getting the upper hand. Kingpatzer 13:57, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

• • • • • specific line: 9. c5 b6 10. cxb6 (else bxc6) axb6 11. Ne5 Bd6 12. f4 c5

• I like what this does for pawn structure. What if the next move is 9. Ne5? How does this "take the sting" out of that?
  • if 9. Ne5 Nd7 10. f4 Nxe5 11. fxe5 b6 12. Bxe4 dxe4 and black is in a very solid position.
• I think 9. Bd2 is a fairly likely response by White. Black would then be wise to pull back to Bd6 or Be7. --Jeff

• I might not be around come voting time, so this is my vote please. Kingpatzer 16:07, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• I also can't be here after 7...but I like this one due to the quick way it gets back to a strong pawn structure. Put me down for this one when the votes open, please.bobbie_mac^{rap at me}
• Ok .. here's a line for you: 8. .. c6 9. a3 Bxc3 10. bxc3 Nd7 how does that look for Black? Take it a few steps further .. 11. Nd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 dxc4 .. it's an ugly, uphill game that White owns. c6 is a losing move unless Ze makes a blunder. ßrigade^rant

So how do we vote? Like this?

1. VOTE by Jeff: by far the safest move for black!
2. VOTE by AnonHC 16:41, 6 July 2006 (PDT) : Kingpatzer, if I ever play chess against you Im probably going to get my clock very strongly cleaned. I nominate you for honorable mention in the league of awesomeness for your strong chess analysis! Are us fabulosos allowed to do that? -AnonHC
3. VOTE by Kingpatzer 16:41, 6 July 2006 (PDT) : per the comment of this section, text added by AnonHC
4. VOTE by 64.231.133.110 : this is the most balanced move. P.S. how do I create a user name? I can play some chess but I'm a weak wikier...
5. VOTE by bobbie_mac^{rap at me}
6. VOTE by Wophugus

Bxc3

• Maintains tempo .. but sacrifices our bishop for his Knight. He either has to recapture, or check us with 9. Qa4+. ßrigade^rant 11:41, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Maybe I'm clueless, but Qa4 isn't check because we castled...
    • GAH .. sleep dep + mad wiki editing rears it's ugly head .. thanks for noticing that .. ßrigade^rant
• I have no problem with trading a bishop for a knight, but in this case his knight is pretty useless, while our bishop is well developed. I'd rather see us develop more of our weak side pieces or strengthen our defense in the middle.Shadowcrash 12:18, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• given that our pawns are all on white squares and likely will be for some time, I'm thinking this is a bad long-term decission. We'll be left with a bishop with very little scope against two knights who have a solid outpost on e5. I see nothing to be gained by this move. It's not immediately bad, but the long-term pluses are hard for me to find. Kingpatzer 12:34, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• Doesnt he just take our bish with his pawn, and leave us to give him a knight if we want to? This looks like a poor idea. -AnonHC
• The more I look at this the less I like it. consider:

- 9. bxc3 Nc6 10. Ba3 Re8 11. Kh1 Rb8 12. Rac1 Bd7 13 cxd5 exd5 14. c4 Be6 15. Rb1 black has some counter play for his weak pawn structure, but mostly, he's hosed. White will just use his space advantage to force concessions from black. It's not a forced loss, but black has no good options that I can see. Kingpatzer 15:00, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

Nc6

• Develops Queenside Knight for potential assault without obstructing our Bishop's retreat. ßrigade^rant 11:50, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Threatens any attempt by white for Ne5. medwards^talk

# VOTE by Wingnut: Looks like a good idea for us to continue developing the center, while he's on the defensive. 11:58, 6 July 2006 (PDT) Sorry about that, didn't know about that voting rule. Wingnut

• Are we going back to our voting without any discussion whatsoever and gut moves? arc

• Only if you cannot vote after 7PM .. I'll move his vote down to the voting section then .. but yes, voting opens up at 7PM. ßrigade^rant

• This is a bad move:

- 9. cxd5 exd5 10.Nxd5 Re8 11. Nxb4 Nxb4 12. Qb3+ Nd5 13. Bc4 c6 14. Ne5 and we're down a pawn with a passive position and no compensation. Making this move results in loss of material

Can't move 10. .. Re8 .. our bishop is in the way. ßrigade^rant

Um Rf8-Re8 where's the bishop that's in the way?? Kingpatzer 13:30, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

• Try 9. cxd5 Bxc3 (or Nxc3) 10. bxc3 exd5 .. I'll throw up a board if necessary .. but it leaves us with a solid position. If we calculate an intelligent response, we'll be fine, but your move assumptions are off a bit I think. ßrigade^rant

• 9. cxd5 Bxc3 10. dxc6!! and now black is going for a ride. I don't see how black avoids losing at least 2 pawns and all sense of pawn structure except by trading the bishop off, which leaves us down a full piece.
• 9. cxd5 Bxc3 10. bxc3 and now black must lose a piece.

• Why in 10. do we Re8 instead of Qxd5? - arc

• Because then 11. Bc4! will loose us our Queen because she will be pinned to our King. - TtT

• Whats the plan. There is a time for heuristics and there is a time for a well thought out plan. Mid game isnt the time for heuristics. That piece cant engage for 2 or three turns so why is moving it right now essential? If it can wait, and there is a better piece to move, shouldnt we move that one? -AnonHC
  • because Bc4 results in the loss of our queen
    • Instead of assuming we all see what you are talking about would you care to explain how this results in loss of queen? - arc
      • Bc4 pins our Queen to our King if we recapture with our Queen. ßrigade^rant
        • Okay, got it. There is an error to the board to the right which I'll fix though. -arc

Nxc3

• Trades Knight-for-Knight .. we're giving up our advanced post Knight, but forces him to recapture with bxc3, and then we can retreat our Bishop to d6, which covers e5 and threatens to assault his castled King. ßrigade^rant 11:56, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Actually .. we'd have to retreat to e7, since he could push his pawn to c5 and force us to move our bishop again .. this isn't a BAD spot, but again this maintains tempo and eliminates the threat of his unpinned Knight. ßrigade^rant
• I think this makes the board stronger for Ze and solidifies the middle ground for him. I also see Bd6 as much stronger than Be7, which raises the possibility of first taking c4 (d5xc4 9.Bxc4 Kxc3 10. b2xc3 Bb6). Again, the final position leaves Ze much stronger in the middle than us. Shadowcrash 12:29, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• I'm reluctant to support any exchange of pieces without some supporting move analysis as to why it's a good idea. We're behind in development. In a closed board position that's not too bad, but we have to make our choices knowing our negatives as well as our positives. Where's some calculation to show why this move is ok? Kingpatzer 12:45, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I don't really like the move .. I'm just throwing out some suggestions that will most likely pop up so we can shoot them down now as opposed to later. Being 'proactive' if you will.  :-) ßrigade^rant
• If I were Ze in this position, I would take the knight with the pawn, threaten the bish, and maybe have traded a pawn & a knight for a bish, a knight, and centerboard dominance. This gives Ze a very strong postion. -AnonHC
• While superficially not bad, looking closer I see nothing better than: 9. bxc3 Be7 10. cxd5 Qxd5 11. e4 fxe4 12. Bxe4 Qh5 Which gives us an isolated pawn against a very strong pawn island. The board gets broken open while we're still under-developed (we DO NOT WANT THAT!) and there are very real threats looming after Rb1, Re1 and c4 we're going to have a hard time not losing. Kingpatzer 13:09, 6 July 2006 (PDT) (typo fixed by AnonHC, "I worked through your moves.. this isnt a reply to a comment, its its own strong, standalone, comment")

Ng5

• Now that he has castled, we know where his king is. His king isnt going anywhere. Our goal is to get his king while keeping him from significantly weakening our position, or getting our king. This sets us up to bring our queen to the board, potentially take his knight, and make significant headway in putting our power-pieces near his king. AnonHC^talk
• Our knight isn't really threatened where it is now (if he captures our Knight with his bishop, we recapture with a pawn) .. I think it'd be better to keep him at his advanced post and develop our other Knight first. We burned two moves getting him down there, let's not waste one on retreat. ßrigade^rant
• I'm admittedly not much of a chess player, but this move scares me. It opens up a pathway for trapping our king in the castle. If he responds with cxd5, we're one way or the other losing support for f5. He could sac his light bishop there with queen support, leaving our abandoned knight. We'd have to knight trade, but he'd be left in a pretty good position. At least, from what little I understand of the game. --AtteSmythe 13:13, 6 July 2006 (PDT) 13:09, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
• Look three moves down this path. There is an imperfect game because he can see the counsel we keep and the justifications for our moves, and we cant see his. The only cover we have is to suggest moves without exhaustive justifications, and hope that enough people who are online & voting at voting time can see ahead a few moves. Move paths (Kxg5, Qxg5,...), (Bxf5, Pxf5, Pxd5, Qxd5). -AnonHC
  • I initially argued this way against medwards, but this is a good justification why you can't just expect this to work: "(copied in from the Chess talk page) Maybe a serious explanation as to why we take this concern so lightly... Unless you have a say 5 minutes time constraint, you don't win by trapping the opponent. You win by doing a deeper analysis at each move so that you are more likely to become aware of favorable deviations from previously analysed lines before you opponent. If we would put up a detailed analysis here and Ze would just follow with what we think is the best response from the wiki, he would be at a clear disadvantage. --Gelbitalk 19:32, 24 June 2006 (PDT)" - arc
• 8. ... Ng5 is a losing move.

- 9. Nxg5 dxc4 10. Bxf5 Rxf5 11. f4 Nc6

- if 9. ... Qxg5 10. cxd5 and black has no good responses

- in either case, black is headed for a very quick loss. Kingpatzer 13:22, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

• I was being too aggressive. We cant move the queen to that area without support. -AnonHC

b6

• This one has been discussed ad naseum, but now Qa4 no longer puts us in check. This gives our light bishop a little more freedom, doesn't block our dark bishop's movement, still allows us to do Nc6 in a later move if we want and will strengthen c5 if we eventually make that move.
  • Stole the words out of my digits, except you made them sound more eloquent. Funky citrus 13:23, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I was leaning more towards developing our Knight, but you're right .. this is a very nice move .. and effective use of our 'free move' (since Ze castled) .. I'm inclined to go with this one at this point unless I see some really convincing arguements to the contrary. ßrigade^rant
• 9. cxd5 Bxc3 10. bxc3 exd5 11. c4 Be6 12 cxd5 Bxd5 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. Bb2 and now what? black isn't bad, but he's passive and un-coordinated and white's set to play all over the board. This isn't a bad move per se, but it lets' white sit in teh driver's seat for the next 10 moves at least. Kingpatzer 14:06, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • You're entire theory resides on cxd5 .. you need to evaluate other moves .. every line you've analyzed has assumed that Ze will move cxd5 .. when there are other more likely alternatives. ßrigade^rant
    • I'm looking at alternatives. I'm merely coming back to the best moves for white. Give me a superior line for white if you don't like the one's I'm posting. But frankly, I'm giving lines not making assertions. To show a move is bad all I have to do is show one forcing line that ends with black worse off than when he started. 9. cxd5 is forcing, black has to respond, and it ends giving black a real struggle for the draw. Kingpatzer 14:51, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
      • Alright .. here's an alternative line for you. 9. c5 bxc5 10. dxcd Bxc5 and we free up our bishop. Your analysis is still lacking .. you're opting for 'worst-cast' scenarios for every other move that you don't support, and they're not even entirely realistic. This is TACTICS .. you can't guesstimate more than 3 moves ahead (and sometimes even that) without too many branches. This is a damn good alternative, even if he captures on d5. ßrigade^rant
• I might not be around to update the voting sections @7PM EST .. so I'm going to go ahead and post a vote for this move. When I get back I'll reevaluate, but the alternatives all look like losing propositions. I think this is the best (offensively, defensively, and developmentally) move that we have, and it still keeps us fluid without backing off or losing tempo. ßrigade^rant
• Can someone have a look at this line from white: 9 Bxe4 dxe4 10 Nxe4 fxe4 11 Qxe4 and his queen is pointed at our rook, the central pawn structure is decimated, and our knight at the advanced post is gone.
  • Only problem with that line: He's trading a bishop and a Knight for a Knight and a pawn. We stand to gain off that exchange.
• This is a terrible move. It totally gives away the center and probably loses a pawn for black in the long run. I agree with Kingpatzer's analysis up to move 10 but I think he missed 11. Ba3! for White. Jeff
  • Excellent improvement for white! Kingpatzer 16:10, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

11. Ba3 c5 equalizes with tempo. Re8 is the problem move in that line.

Voting

1. VOTE by ßrigade^rant 17:26, 6 July 2006 (PDT): c6 is a mistake, and the analysis for it is flawed. We've done good thus far, let's not blunder into a corner yet!
2. VOTE by Funky citrus 17:50, 6 July 2006 (PDT): The c6 bandwagon has left the corale. Please, If you're on it get the heck off before we get ourselves smitten!

Qe8

• Sets up for a possible queen exchange at a4 and generally makes it easier to move the queen out if needed Funky citrus
• This is not a bad staging move for the queen. It gets her packed up to move without commiting to fly on Delta Airlines. It does take her away from coverying the pawn at d5. If he takes d5 while queen is at d8, it gives us a chance to put queen at center-board at a critical time in the game. -AnonHC
• I forgot to mention the bit about the queen not being threatened by the Knight if we have to take it out towards the king's side of the board. Funky citrus
• ummm .. e6 has a pawn sitting on it, and isn't a square that the queen can move too. What's the move being considered here? Kingpatzer 14:08, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Qe8 - I think I fixed it for all instances. --AtteSmythe
• How do you propose to respond to 9. cxd5? The best I see is Bxc3 10. bxc3 exd5 and black can't stop white from creating an isolated blocked pawn on d5 without giving up at least a pawn, and in some lines, white's going to get a rook solidly lodged on c7 to boot. Kingpatzer 14:36, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

Kh8

• one of the things I've noticed in many lines I've been looking at is that the pawn structure for black is actually rather weak. The result is that in a few lines, white can actually attack the king on the a2-g8 diagonal with either the queen or bishop. The purpose of this move is entirely prophylactic in nature, but it's reasonably solid. White has several choices for continuation here depending on his plan: Bd2, a3, Ne2 cxd5 etc. None of them are particularly troubling that I can see. while i still think c6 is superior, this is a good alternative Kingpatzer 14:30, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

Ba5

I'm definitely not a chess person, but I don't see the disadvantage here, bishop threatens as it does now, and is one pawn move away from queen support. This bishop no longer pins the knight (c3) and is vulnerable to move a3. This move doesn't preclude c6 next and given the other possibilities and the weak bishop position I'd like someone who knows better to explain why not. Speed8ump 16:35, 6 July 2006 (PDT)