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	* Allows the option: 10 axb4 cxb4 which sacrifices our bishop for maintained tempo and a treat on Ze's knight. [[User:87.74.55.84|87.74.55.84]] 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)		* Allows the option: 10 axb4 cxb4 which sacrifices our bishop for maintained tempo and a treat on Ze's knight. [[User:87.74.55.84|87.74.55.84]] 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
	:* You need to consider that we're not 'sacrificing' here, we're exchanging a pawn for a bishop. Sacrifice entails (almost) immediate advantage, like sacrificing a piece in order to mate your opponent, or pick up decisive material gains. [[User:Brigade|<font color="#666666"><b><i>ßrigade</i></b></font>]][[User talk:Brigade|<font color="#FF3399"><sup>rant</sup></font>]]		:* You need to consider that we're not 'sacrificing' here, we're exchanging a pawn for a bishop. Sacrifice entails (almost) immediate advantage, like sacrificing a piece in order to mate your opponent, or pick up decisive material gains. [[User:Brigade|<font color="#666666"><b><i>ßrigade</i></b></font>]][[User talk:Brigade|<font color="#FF3399"><sup>rant</sup></font>]]
-		+	* this is interesting for about 20 seconds until you realize where it leads :) 9. ... c5 10. axb4 cxd4 11. Nxe4 fxe4 12. Bxe4 dxe4 13. Qxe4 Rf7 (to prevent Qxa8) 14. Ng5 (Ne5 is also possible) Qxg5 15. Qxa8 and black is completely lost. If instead 11. ... dxe4 12. Bxe4 fxe4 (d3 goes no where better) 13. Qxe4 Rf7 and we're back to losing a rook. [[User:Kingpatzer|Kingpatzer]] 13:48, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
	{{clear}}		{{clear}}

---

Revision as of 20:48, 7 July 2006

detailed history | current 3d view

	Ze	Us	consensus
1	d4	d5	56%
2	c4	e6	66%
3	Nc3	Bb4	48%
4	Nf3	Nf6	82%
5	e3	Ne4	56%
6	Qc2	f5	62%
7	Bd3	O-O	83%
8	O-O	b6	61%
9	a3	Bxc3	57%
10	bxc3	Ba6	65%
11	Ne5	Nd7	37%
12	Nc6	Qf6	89%
13	f3	Nd6	100%
14	e4	dxc4	100%
15	Be2	e5	100%
16	d5	Nb8	55%
17	Nb4	Bb7	93%
18	a4	a5	100%
19	Na2	Nd7	50%
20	Ba3	Rac8	50%
21	Rab1	Qg5	60%
22	Kh1	fxe4	61%
23	fxe4	Qg6	89%
24	Rxf8+	Rxf8	100%
25	Bxd6	Rf2	100%
26	Rg1	cxd6	100%
27	Qd1	Nf6	73%
28	Bf3	Nxe4	93%
29	Nc1	Rd2	53%
30	Bxe4	Rxd1	100%
31	Bxg6	Rxg1+	100%
32	Kxg1	hxg6	100%
33	Resign	---

Voting Closed Until Saturday - TGIF

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open SATURDAY @12PM EDT and close at MONDAY 12AM EDT (Sunday Night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

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Strategy Discussion

Contents 1 Voting Closed Until Saturday - TGIF 2 Strategy Discussion 2.1 Suggested Move Summary 2.2 Bd6 2.3 Bxc3 2.4 Nxc3 2.5 Be7 2.6 Ba5 2.7 a5 2.8 a3 2.9 dxc4 2.10 Nc6

Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. Our Knight at e4 is threatened by Ze's Bishop and Queen, but is protected by our pawns at d5 and f5. Our Bishop is threatened by Ze's a3 pawn, which forces us to exchange or retreat it. Also, since Ze castled his c3 Knight is no longer pinned and is free to move.

At this juncture, we need to decide whether to exchange pieces, retreat, or formulate a suitable counter-threat. Some of our options are listed below to get things started.

Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigade^rant

Suggested Move Summary

Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bd6	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bxc3	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Nxc3
Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Be7	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Ba5	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 a5
Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 c5	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 dxc4	Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Nc6

Bd6

• Retreats our Dark Bishop to safety, however Ze gains tempo and can begin to force us to respond to his game. Has both advantages and disadvantages, we're vulnerable to a pawn push c5, but we also control e5 and h2. ßrigade^rant
  • Actually .. i completely forgot about our b6! .. If he advances 10. c5 bxc5 and we win a free pawn .. so in actuality that's one disadvantage off the table. (if he responds with 11. dxc5 Bxc5 and we're still up a pawn. ßrigade^rant

• I like this move (even though it's defensive), because it also sets us up to do a Qh4 and Bxh2 at some point in the future, and start hard charging for the king. (although now that I've typed that, I'm getting more worried as we get into midgame that Ze is snooping around over here...) 66.47.159.86 12:14, 7 July 2006 (PDT) (aka Mike)

• what is blacks' response to 10. cxd5? I see nothing good here. Kingpatzer 12:15, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• 10 cxd5 Nxc3 and we can retake the pawn safely if we so choose, similiar situation to below though .. we need to look at the entire board, not just one threat. ßrigade^rant

• 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5 12. c4 and black is positionally busted. Against even an FM you can safetly resign Kingpatzer 12:55, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

Bxc3

• Possibly the best of the exchange variations, although we're exchanging our (slightly more valuable) dark bishop for his (slightly weaker) Knight, however we maintain tempo and control his next move (most likely bxc3, but there may be alternatives). ßrigade^rant
• not "possibly" definitely. Simply the only move that doesn't leave black in a pssive position after white blows up the center. Kingpatzer 12:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
• Yeah, I can't believe Ze didn't do 9. cxd5. Bxc3 capitalizes on his goof and brings us closer to parity. I wonder if he's toying with us or if he's just not trying or not very good? Jeff
• But what happens if he doesn't use bxc3 to recapture? Is Bxe4 decisive? (Each of us has lost a piece, and has a piece threatened, so it's still an even exchange) .. ßrigade^rant
  • Yes, Bxe4 is strongly in black's favor. 10. Bxe4 fxe4. Black would then have captured a Bishop & a Knight, while White would only have captured a Knight. White could then take our bishop, but would end up trading his Knight for a pawn. Ze's only real move is bxc3, giving us control on our next move. Shadowcrash 12:56, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • guys, you can't examine his worse move. You have to assume he'll play the best move on the board. Anything else is losing chess. Kingpatzer 12:59, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • We're not 'examining his worst move' .. we're evaluating potential responses .. and establishing what his best move is. Question: This is the obvious response, but what about this vague response? Answer: No, the vague response is worse than the obvious one. Instead of criticizing everyone else, why not be constructive instead and help with the analysis? ßrigade^rant
      • Seriously. If you (as in kingpatzer) want to sway the masses away from brigade's view, which has pretty much been running the show, you'll have to convince people to agree with you. While it may be valuable and necessary, teaching all of the people voting about chess theory will never happen. If you want people to vote for the best move (or as you say, the least bad move), then I believe it has to be shown WHY it is such. While you may not think any move is good, you are going to have a very hard time selling a move as "the least worst" vs. Brigade who is selling it as "the best". Try and put your best foot forward. This isn't chess man, this is propaganda, which is why I've just been nitpicking for the most part and seldomly voting. arc
• Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. I am convinced this is the best move for Black. If anyone (i.e. ßrigade) thinks this is not, then please say what you think the best move is and what you think White's best response to this is. That way we can narrow it down to just two branches of the tree. What I'm proposing is that we should just try an adversarial approach using moves rather than words. Jeff
• the most promising line from this position is 9. ... Bxc3 10. bxc3 Ba6 (pressures the c pawn and helps protect our center) 11. Ne5 when we have a couple of choices:

11. .. dxc4 is playable but dangerous as we pretty much agree to trash our pawn structure after 12. Bxe4 fxe4 13. Qxe4 we're effectively a pawn down (we can't keep the e pawn for long) and will still probably lose. However, we have a good line for our bishop and some temporary advantages that we might be able to make use.

11. .. Ng5 12. cxd5 Bxd3 13. Nxd3 Qxd5 14. c4 and we have a better pawn structure, though still not optimal, two knights against a bishop-knight pair. We can make this work but we'll have to be carefull to trade off our backward pawn as soon as possible.

11. .. Nf6 plays out the same as the above line more or less.

in both of the above lines, instead of Qxd5, exd5 can be played which leads to a better pawn structure but presents a challenge in stopping a future pawn advance by white should we ever lose the c pawn. Kingpatzer 13:41, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

Nxc3

• Another version of the exchange variation, which has the added benefit of exchanging a Knight for a Knight. However, Ze can choose to recapture either the Bishop or the Knight, which is a slight disadvantage to us. ßrigade^rant
• I see this move as similiar to Bxc3, except it gives Ze the choice of taking our Bishop or our Knight. If he chooses to take the Bishop, our night is still in jeopardy, forcing a retreat to e4 and giving him the next move. This is identical to Bxc3, except we waste a move. If he takes the Knight, our Bishop if forced to retreat, giving Ze greater position in the middle and still gives him control. Shadowcrash 12:04, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I agree .. I was just sticking this out here to get the ball rolling. When things (editing en mass) calm down, I'll stick this in the dumpster unless someone proposes keeping it here. ßrigade^rant
• Nxc3 is a subtle, but very real, blunder. after 10. axb4 the half-open A file is going to be heavily exploited to black's regret. Kingpatzer 12:17, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

Be7

• I would like to keep the queen pointed up the middle while allowing the bishop to aplly pressure to the diagonal. d5 is vulnerable as well as e4.
  • Also potentially allows for us to respond to Ne5 with Bf6 .. ßrigade^rant
• as with Bd6, what's the response to cxd5, besides tears? Kingpatzer 12:18, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
• I see three responses to cxd5, but we need to evaluate all of ze's options .. he's shown us in past moves (as well as this one) that he makes moves based on something that we cannot understand (for good or bad) ßrigade^rant .. none of us proposed a3 during the last discussion .. that said:

9. .. exd5 maintains material exchange, but isolates our pawns at d5 and f5.

9. .. Nxc3 10. bxc3 Qxd5 might look a bit better, but deserves further analysis.

• I think you mean 9. ... Bd7 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5

9. .. c5. Let him have the pawn. He has a myriad of responses and we'll end up a pawn down, but what move can we make on 10. to capitalize on this?

• So... 10. cxd5 exd5 11.Nd5? Salmancini

• Think it loses for us. 11. Nd5 Qxd5 12. Bc4 pins our Queen .. so we're losing a pawn unless there's another option here. ßrigade^rant

• we can't evaluate all possible responses to a move, the tree's too big. We can safetly ignore those moves of his that negatively impact him. Remember in chess (as in any state game) it is impossible to do anything to make your position better. You can either keep your level of advantage/disadvantage the same or make it worse. You can not improve. Winning chess relies on making least bad movesThat said let's look at these lines:

9. .. Be7 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxd5 and now we have to waste tempo moving the bishop so Bb6 12. Nf4 and black is really hurting. we'll have a hard time protecting the a8-h1 diagonal and we're down a pretty important pawn.

9. .. Be7 10. cxd4 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5 12. e4 Qd6 13. exf5 exf5 14. Qb3+ Kh8 15. Ne5 black's not busted here but he's got a long way to go to prove it. Ze's completely developed and entirely passive.

9. .. Be7 10. c5 (once again BAD move in these sorts of positiosn, but we can dream) bxd5 11. b3 Ba6 etc. more or less equal game. But we get here by Ze making a very sub-optimal move Kingpatzer 12:52, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• We're not going to argue chess theory for the remainder of the game .. we're trying to discuss strategy. It detracts from the game itself, which is what we're trying to do, win a game. We cannot fixate on ONE potential good/bad move of Ze's .. we need to analyze and evalaute as many potential threats as possible, in a short span of time, and optimize our position to take into account both his threats and his weaknesses. ßrigade^rant
  • if you don't understand the way the game is played you can't optimally analyze moves. Looking at your oponents sub-optimum responses is a waste of time precisely because they are sub-optimum responses and thus good for you. A move is bad for you if there is ONE response to it that demonstrates that the move weakens your position. It doesn't matter how many ways your oponent can blunder away the win. Kingpatzer 13:14, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I tend to agree with kingpatzer about this point. We should plan for his best possible responses and rejoice when he scrws the pooch. By the way I was the one who initially proposed this move, just so you know I am trying to be objective.... SalMancini
      • I agree with Brigade. Its stupid to not choose a move just because your opponent can utterly cripple you with his response to it. We have to consider all the posibilities. What if we make this move and Ze resigns? Wouldn't that be something! Wophugus

Ba5

• Mostly included for completeness, though it keeps pressure on Ze's knight and doesn't clutter our queen --AtteSmythe 12:01, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
• Ze's next move would probably be b4, capturing our Bishop. Shadowcrash 12:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• How would we respond to 10. b4 ? 87.74.55.84 12:04, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
• I can't really SEE a good response to 10. b4 .. one of the reasons why we avoided being forced or voluntarily moving Ba4 for the last several moves. Another potential candidate for dumpster in a few hours. ßrigade^rant

• clear blunder. Kingpatzer 12:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

a5

• Allows the option: 10 axb4 axb4 which sacrifices our bishop for maintained tempo and a treat on Ze's knight. 87.74.55.84 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
• 10. axb4 axb4 11. Rxa8 and black can resign. Kingpatzer 13:15, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

a3

• Allows the option: 10 axb4 cxb4 which sacrifices our bishop for maintained tempo and a treat on Ze's knight. 87.74.55.84 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• You need to consider that we're not 'sacrificing' here, we're exchanging a pawn for a bishop. Sacrifice entails (almost) immediate advantage, like sacrificing a piece in order to mate your opponent, or pick up decisive material gains. ßrigade^rant

• this is interesting for about 20 seconds until you realize where it leads :) 9. ... c5 10. axb4 cxd4 11. Nxe4 fxe4 12. Bxe4 dxe4 13. Qxe4 Rf7 (to prevent Qxa8) 14. Ng5 (Ne5 is also possible) Qxg5 15. Qxa8 and black is completely lost. If instead 11. ... dxe4 12. Bxe4 fxe4 (d3 goes no where better) 13. Qxe4 Rf7 and we're back to losing a rook. Kingpatzer 13:48, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

dxc4

• Counter-attacks at Ze's bishop and begins to open the d file for our queen. 87.74.55.84 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• 10. Bxc4 Bxc3 11. bxc3 Qd6 12. Bd2 and white has a clear advantage due to his pawn structure. black's not lost, but he's going to be hurting for the rest of the game. An inferior choice to Bxc3 Kingpatzer 13:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

Nc6

• Developes our knight, and allows us to respond to 10. axb4 with Nxb4, forking Ze's queen and bishop. Again we sacrifice our bishop but maintain tempo; in fact, here 10. axb4 may not even be Ze's best play. 87.74.55.84 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
• I think we still end up down a piece however you slice it. Why wouldn't he take the bishop? to save his pawn? The potential fork of 10...Nxb4 won't capture anything else without losing the knight. This would be dropping a piece for a pawn at best.
• loses immediately to 10. cxd5 when both knight and bishop are attacked. if 10. ... Nxd4 11. exd4 Bxc3 12. dxe6 Bxe6 13. axb4 is a forced line that ends with black a piece down with no compensation. Kingpatzer 13:22, 7 July 2006 (PDT)