Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move9

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** I do not. I see cxd5 as putting black in a real bind. [[User:Kingpatzer|Kingpatzer]] 16:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT) ** I do not. I see cxd5 as putting black in a real bind. [[User:Kingpatzer|Kingpatzer]] 16:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
** Viable, yes. It's a matter of the best way to deal with that threat. I'm trying to look at a line where we don't lose a pawn in that exchange .. I think we still might lose a pawn after Bxc3 also. At this point, Bxc3 is looking like the move to make, (even though we're hoping for equal gameplay with it), however, I still think that there might be a way to keep the bishop and not lose a pawn .. just have to look at a few more lines. I don't even think cxd5 is the move black will make .. but it's still a vulnerability we need to address before moving forward. I refuse to vote for any move that I don't wholeheartedly support, and I can't bring myself to choose one over the other at this point .. either move could be lossy but there don't appear to be any alternatives, so I'm trying to find the advantages that each give us. [[User:Brigade|<font color="#666666"><b><i>ßrigade</i></b></font>]][[User talk:Brigade|<font color="#FF3399"><sup>rant</sup></font>]] 16:40, 7 July 2006 (PDT) ** Viable, yes. It's a matter of the best way to deal with that threat. I'm trying to look at a line where we don't lose a pawn in that exchange .. I think we still might lose a pawn after Bxc3 also. At this point, Bxc3 is looking like the move to make, (even though we're hoping for equal gameplay with it), however, I still think that there might be a way to keep the bishop and not lose a pawn .. just have to look at a few more lines. I don't even think cxd5 is the move black will make .. but it's still a vulnerability we need to address before moving forward. I refuse to vote for any move that I don't wholeheartedly support, and I can't bring myself to choose one over the other at this point .. either move could be lossy but there don't appear to be any alternatives, so I'm trying to find the advantages that each give us. [[User:Brigade|<font color="#666666"><b><i>ßrigade</i></b></font>]][[User talk:Brigade|<font color="#FF3399"><sup>rant</sup></font>]] 16:40, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
 +** I still don't really see the argument for this move as opposed to Bxc3. Has anyone shown a reasonable line out of cxd5 that doesn't leave us with our position on the board trashed and white about to open hell? Has anyone found a really horrible line out of Bxc3 or some reason why we wouldn't want to make a clean exchange while keeping the initiative and our basic structure? It seems to me that Bxc3 followed by moving our other bishop to a3 ends the cxd5 threat, puts Ze under pressure, and retains the initiative. The downside, i guess, is a bishop knight exchange. How is this bad? What am I missing? [[User:Wophugus|Wophugus]]
{{clear}} {{clear}}

Revision as of 03:18, 8 July 2006

detailed history | current 3d view
Ze Us consensus
1 d4 d5 56%
2 c4 e6 66%
3 Nc3 Bb4 48%
4 Nf3 Nf6 82%
5 e3 Ne4 56%
6 Qc2 f5 62%
7 Bd3 O-O 83%
8 O-O b6 61%
9 a3 Bxc3 57%
10 bxc3 Ba6 65%
11 Ne5 Nd7 37%
12 Nc6 Qf6 89%
13 f3 Nd6 100%
14 e4 dxc4 100%
15 Be2 e5 100%
16 d5 Nb8 55%
17 Nb4 Bb7 93%
18 a4 a5 100%
19 Na2 Nd7 50%
20 Ba3 Rac8 50%
21 Rab1 Qg5 60%
22 Kh1 fxe4 61%
23 fxe4 Qg6 89%
24 Rxf8+ Rxf8 100%
25 Bxd6 Rf2 100%
26 Rg1 cxd6 100%
27 Qd1 Nf6 73%
28 Bf3 Nxe4 93%
29 Nc1 Rd2 53%
30 Bxe4 Rxd1 100%
31 Bxg6 Rxg1+ 100%
32 Kxg1 hxg6 100%
33 Resign ---

Voting Closed Until Saturday - TGIF

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open SATURDAY @12PM EDT and close at MONDAY 12AM EDT (Sunday Night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

Since Knowledge rests on weekends, any moves not under serious consideration or garnering serious support will be relocated to the Magic Dumpster tonight, before voting begins Saturday afternoon. Bear in mind that you have 36 hours to vote (as opposed to the normal 5-hour window).

If you cannot vote while the polls are open: Early voting IS allowed in the comments section, and when polls open your vote will be edited into the proper place. We don't want anyone to feel left out by time constraints, but bear in mind a LOT of deliberation takes place both before and after the polls open. Don't forget to include your sig/timestamp also.

  • (very) Rough draft of the Fabuloso Chess Edit Guide is now up and located here

Use the following tags to help suggest moves, and remember if you want to throw up an example speculative board in the discussion, please refer to the Edit Guide on how to properly format it.

 <!-- ==Speculative Move== -->

 <!-- REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD

  REMOVE THIS LINE TO INSERT BOARD -->

 <!-- MAKE CERTAIN YOU ADD A COMMENT TO JUSTIFY THIS POSITION-->

{{clear}}

Just follow the instructions, and completely delete those lines .. and don't forget to replace 'Speculative Move' with the actual move name. Also bear in mind that anything after the clear tag won't be visible, so don't enter any text underneath it (unless you're adding another section)

  • Cut and paste the following to vote:
# '''VOTE''' by ~~~~: add a comment! 

Strategy Discussion

Current Position
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Image:chess_zver_26.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_26.png
Image:chess_zhor_26.png
Last Move: 9. a3

Contents


Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. Our Knight at e4 is threatened by Ze's Bishop and Queen, but is protected by our pawns at d5 and f5. Our Bishop is threatened by Ze's a3 pawn, which forces us to exchange or retreat it. Also, since Ze castled his c3 Knight is no longer pinned and is free to move.

At this juncture, we need to decide whether to exchange pieces, retreat, or formulate a suitable counter-threat. Some of our options are listed below to get things started.

Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigaderant

Suggested Move Summary

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bd6
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bxc3
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Nxc3
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Be7
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Ba5
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 a5
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 c5
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 dxc4
Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Nc6


Bd6

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bd6
Speculative Line
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Line: 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5
  • Retreats our Dark Bishop to safety, however Ze gains tempo and can begin to force us to respond to his game. Has both advantages and disadvantages, we're vulnerable to a pawn push c5, but we also control e5 and h2. ßrigaderant
    • Actually .. i completely forgot about our b6! .. If he advances 10. c5 bxc5 and we win a free pawn .. so in actuality that's one disadvantage off the table. (if he responds with 11. dxc5 Bxc5 and we're still up a pawn. ßrigaderant
      • white's move of c5 remains good for black. Kingpatzer 14:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I like this move (even though it's defensive), because it also sets us up to do a Qh4 and Bxh2 at some point in the future, and start hard charging for the king. (although now that I've typed that, I'm getting more worried as we get into midgame that Ze is snooping around over here...) 66.47.159.86 12:14, 7 July 2006 (PDT) (aka Mike)
  • what is blacks' response to 10. cxd5? I see nothing good here. Kingpatzer 12:15, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • 10 cxd5 Nxc3 and we can retake the pawn safely if we so choose, similiar situation to below though .. we need to look at the entire board, not just one threat. ßrigaderant
  • 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5 12. c4 and black is positionally busted. Against even an FM you can safetly resign Kingpatzer 12:55, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Evaluating that line against the best that Bxc3 10. cxd5 has to offer .. I think we're in a better position. Our Dark bishop makes a difference, and our Knight is still advanced. Plus, 12. c4 Bb3 is tactically sound. ßrigaderant
  • Found a better response: 10. cxd5 exd5 .. if he tries 11. Nxd5 Bxh2+ and we equalize .. he loses a center pawn AND his castling position is vulnerable. We could also 12. Qh4+ to chase him (or make him interpose with g3) then take the Knight. Let me set up a board here. Ultimately, this looks like the best response to the threat of cxd5 that we have .. compared to the lines below. ßrigaderant
  • Damn .. nevermind .. I forgot about Bc4 pinning our queen down. Trash that theory... ßrigaderant
  • Moot point .. the idea was to trade off the bishop for his knight, and gain a castled pawn in the deal .. in actuality Nxh2 is better for us than Kxh2, it's pulling his Knight to the corner where he's got limited mobility .. there's got to be another way around losing a pawn at cxd5 .. that's the only potential flaw in this move that I can see (or that's been brought up) .. ßrigaderant
  • Oh yeah I see the c4 pin now. jeez out of the frying pan....SalMancini
  • I can't tell from the above: Does anyone still think this is a viable move given 10. cxd5 ? Jeff
    • I do not. I see cxd5 as putting black in a real bind. Kingpatzer 16:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Viable, yes. It's a matter of the best way to deal with that threat. I'm trying to look at a line where we don't lose a pawn in that exchange .. I think we still might lose a pawn after Bxc3 also. At this point, Bxc3 is looking like the move to make, (even though we're hoping for equal gameplay with it), however, I still think that there might be a way to keep the bishop and not lose a pawn .. just have to look at a few more lines. I don't even think cxd5 is the move black will make .. but it's still a vulnerability we need to address before moving forward. I refuse to vote for any move that I don't wholeheartedly support, and I can't bring myself to choose one over the other at this point .. either move could be lossy but there don't appear to be any alternatives, so I'm trying to find the advantages that each give us. ßrigaderant 16:40, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I still don't really see the argument for this move as opposed to Bxc3. Has anyone shown a reasonable line out of cxd5 that doesn't leave us with our position on the board trashed and white about to open hell? Has anyone found a really horrible line out of Bxc3 or some reason why we wouldn't want to make a clean exchange while keeping the initiative and our basic structure? It seems to me that Bxc3 followed by moving our other bishop to a3 ends the cxd5 threat, puts Ze under pressure, and retains the initiative. The downside, i guess, is a bishop knight exchange. How is this bad? What am I missing? Wophugus


Bxc3

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bxc3
  • Possibly the best of the exchange variations, although we're exchanging our (slightly more valuable) dark bishop for his (slightly weaker) Knight, however we maintain tempo and control his next move (most likely bxc3, but there may be alternatives). ßrigaderant
  • not "possibly" definitely. Simply the only move that doesn't leave black in a pssive position after white blows up the center. Kingpatzer 12:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Yeah, I can't believe Ze didn't do 9. cxd5. Bxc3 capitalizes on his goof and brings us closer to parity. I wonder if he's toying with us or if he's just not trying or not very good? Jeff
  • But what happens if he doesn't use bxc3 to recapture? Is Bxe4 decisive? (Each of us has lost a piece, and has a piece threatened, so it's still an even exchange) .. ßrigaderant
    • Yes, Bxe4 is strongly in black's favor. 10. Bxe4 fxe4. Black would then have captured a Bishop & a Knight, while White would only have captured a Knight. White could then take our bishop, but would end up trading his Knight for a pawn. Ze's only real move is bxc3, giving us control on our next move. Shadowcrash 12:56, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • Conversation thread relocated Here to keep discussion on topic.
  • the most promising line from this position is 9. ... Bxc3 10. bxc3 Ba6 (pressures the c pawn and helps protect our center) 11. Ne5 when we have a couple of choices:
11. .. dxc4 is playable but dangerous as we pretty much agree to trash our pawn structure after 12. Bxe4 fxe4 13. Qxe4 we're effectively a pawn down (we can't keep the e pawn for long) and will still probably lose. However, we have a good line for our bishop and some temporary advantages that we might be able to make use.
11. .. Ng5 12. cxd5 Bxd3 13. Nxd3 Qxd5 14. c4 and we have a better pawn structure, though still not optimal, two knights against a bishop-knight pair. We can make this work but we'll have to be carefull to trade off our backward pawn as soon as possible.
11. .. Nf6 plays out the same as the above line more or less.
in both of the above lines, instead of Qxd5, exd5 can be played which leads to a better pawn structure but presents a challenge in stopping a future pawn advance by white should we ever lose the c pawn. Kingpatzer 13:41, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • You forgot one (if you're playing them out this far .. i still think more than 2 moves is too much variation:
11. .. Nd7 12. Nd6 and we move our queen .. still it's an ugly position, our bishop stuck on the a file and the entire center still in flux .. I'm starting to lean more towards 9. .. Bd6 so we can control e5 and keep Ze on the lookout for mating sacrifices. ßrigaderant
    • Clearly Black will have to move the queen at some point. I think 11. Ne5 Qe8 and then what can White do? Jeff
  • I see it going 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qd3 exd5 which isn't all that bad. Geedubber 16:56, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I'm a bit fatigued. Mark me down as
# '''VOTE''' by [[User:AmericanJeffBowden|Jeff]]: Brings Black closer to parity

Be7

Speculative Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 9. a3 Be7
  • I would like to keep the queen pointed up the middle while allowing the bishop to aplly pressure to the diagonal. d5 is vulnerable as well as e4.
    • Also potentially allows for us to respond to Ne5 with Bf6 .. ßrigaderant
  • as with Bd6, what's the response to cxd5, besides tears? Kingpatzer 12:18, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I see three responses to cxd5, but we need to evaluate all of ze's options .. he's shown us in past moves (as well as this one) that he makes moves based on something that we cannot understand (for good or bad) ßrigaderant .. none of us proposed a3 during the last discussion .. that said:
9. .. exd5 maintains material exchange, but isolates our pawns at d5 and f5.
9. .. Nxc3 10. bxc3 Qxd5 might look a bit better, but deserves further analysis.
  • I think you mean 9. ... Bd7 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5
9. .. c5. Let him have the pawn. He has a myriad of responses and we'll end up a pawn down, but what move can we make on 10. to capitalize on this?
  • So... 10. cxd5 exd5 11.Nd5? Salmancini
  • Think it loses for us. 11. Nd5 Qxd5 12. Bc4 pins our Queen .. so we're losing a pawn unless there's another option here. ßrigaderant
  • we can't evaluate all possible responses to a move, the tree's too big. We can safetly ignore those moves of his that negatively impact him. That said let's look at these lines:
9. .. Be7 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxd5 and now we have to waste tempo moving the bishop so Bb6 12. Nf4 and black is really hurting. we'll have a hard time protecting the a8-h1 diagonal and we're down a pretty important pawn.
9. .. Be7 10. cxd4 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5 12. e4 Qd6 13. exf5 exf5 14. Qb3+ Kh8 15. Ne5 black's not busted here but he's got a long way to go to prove it. Ze's completely developed and entirely passive.
You lost me here .. cxd4 doesn't appear to be a valid move .. ßrigaderant
sorry 9. .. Be7 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5 ...
9. .. Be7 10. c5 (once again BAD move in these sorts of positiosn, but we can dream) bxd5 11. b3 Ba6 etc. more or less equal game. But we get here by Ze making a very sub-optimal move Kingpatzer 12:52, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Conversation thread relocated Here to keep discussion on topic.
  • Alright .. it's looking like our best prospects are Bd6, Bd7, and Bxc3 .. why don't we iron out the positives/negatives between Bd6 and Bd7 Be7 first, figure out which one plays best, then debate retreat and exchange after that? We have all weekend to make a decision, best to use the time we have imho. ßrigaderant
    • sounds good... i'm gonna go set up a board to look through Be7 Kingpatzer 14:29, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I assume that must be a typo where Bd7 is considered to be among black's 'best prospects'?


Specualtive Moves Lacking Support

The following moves have been discussed and have been found lacking. Please feel free to add other lines above, but these all seemed to be flawed.


Ba5

Speculative Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 9.a3
  • Mostly included for completeness, though it keeps pressure on Ze's knight and doesn't clutter our queen --AtteSmythe 12:01, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Ze's next move would probably be b4, capturing our Bishop. Shadowcrash 12:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • How would we respond to 10. b4 ? 87.74.55.84 12:04, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I can't really SEE a good response to 10. b4 .. one of the reasons why we avoided being forced or voluntarily moving Ba4 for the last several moves. Another potential candidate for dumpster in a few hours. ßrigaderant
  • clear blunder. Kingpatzer 12:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)


a5

Speculative Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 9.a3 a5
  • Allows the option: 10 axb4 axb4 which sacrifices our bishop for maintained tempo and a treat on Ze's knight. 87.74.55.84 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • 10. axb4 axb4 11. Rxa8 and black can resign. Kingpatzer 13:15, 7 July 2006 (PDT)


a3

Speculative Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 9. a3 c5
  • Allows the option: 10 axb4 cxb4 which sacrifices our bishop for maintained tempo and a treat on Ze's knight. 87.74.55.84 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • You need to consider that we're not 'sacrificing' here, we're exchanging a pawn for a bishop. Sacrifice entails (almost) immediate advantage, like sacrificing a piece in order to mate your opponent, or pick up decisive material gains. ßrigaderant
  • this is interesting for about 20 seconds until you realize where it leads :) 9. ... c5 10. axb4 cxd4 11. Nxe4 fxe4 12. Bxe4 dxe4 13. Qxe4 Rf7 (to prevent Qxa8) 14. Ng5 (Ne5 is also possible) Qxg5 15. Qxa8 and black is completely lost. If instead 11. ... dxe4 12. Bxe4 fxe4 (d3 goes no where better) 13. Qxe4 Rf7 and we're back to losing a rook. Kingpatzer 13:48, 7 July 2006 (PDT)


dxc4

Speculative Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 9.a3 dxc4
  • Counter-attacks at Ze's bishop and begins to open the d file for our queen. 87.74.55.84 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • 10. Bxc4 Bxc3 11. bxc3 Qd6 12. Bd2 and white has a clear advantage due to his pawn structure. black's not lost, but he's going to be hurting for the rest of the game. An inferior choice to Bxc3 Kingpatzer 13:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)


Nc6

Speculative Position
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Last Move: 9.a3 Nc6
  • Developes our knight, and allows us to respond to 10. axb4 with Nxb4, forking Ze's queen and bishop. Again we sacrifice our bishop but maintain tempo; in fact, here 10. axb4 may not even be Ze's best play. 87.74.55.84 13:05, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I think we still end up down a piece however you slice it. Why wouldn't he take the bishop? to save his pawn? The potential fork of 10...Nxb4 won't capture anything else without losing the knight. This would be dropping a piece for a pawn at best.
  • loses immediately to 10. cxd5 when both knight and bishop are attacked. if 10. ... Nxd4 11. exd4 Bxc3 12. dxe6 Bxe6 13. axb4 is a forced line that ends with black a piece down with no compensation. Kingpatzer 13:22, 7 July 2006 (PDT)


Nxc3

Speculative Move
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Image:chess_zver_22.png
a8 b8 c8 d8 e8 f8 g8 h8
a7 b7 c7 d7 e7 f7 g7 h7
a6 b6 c6 d6 e6 f6 g6 h6
a5 b5 c5 d5 e5 f5 g5 h5
a4 b4 c4 d4 e4 f4 g4 h4
a3 b3 c3 d3 e3 f3 g3 h3
a2 b2 c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 h2
a1 b1 c1 d1 e1 f1 g1 h1
Image:chess_zver_22.png
Image:chess_zhor_22.png
Speculative Move: 9. a3 Nxc3
  • Another version of the exchange variation, which has the added benefit of exchanging a Knight for a Knight. However, Ze can choose to recapture either the Bishop or the Knight, which is a slight disadvantage to us. ßrigaderant
  • I see this move as similiar to Bxc3, except it gives Ze the choice of taking our Bishop or our Knight. If he chooses to take the Bishop, our night is still in jeopardy, forcing a retreat to e4 and giving him the next move. This is identical to Bxc3, except we waste a move. If he takes the Knight, our Bishop if forced to retreat, giving Ze greater position in the middle and still gives him control. Shadowcrash 12:04, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
    • I agree .. I was just sticking this out here to get the ball rolling. When things (editing en mass) calm down, I'll stick this in the dumpster unless someone proposes keeping it here. ßrigaderant
  • Nxc3 is a subtle, but very real, blunder. after 10. axb4 the half-open A file is going to be heavily exploited to black's regret. Kingpatzer 12:17, 7 July 2006 (PDT)









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