From zefrank

detailed history | current 3d view

	Ze	Us	consensus
1	d4	d5	56%
2	c4	e6	66%
3	Nc3	Bb4	48%
4	Nf3	Nf6	82%
5	e3	Ne4	56%
6	Qc2	f5	62%
7	Bd3	O-O	83%
8	O-O	b6	61%
9	a3	Bxc3	57%
10	bxc3	Ba6	65%
11	Ne5	Nd7	37%
12	Nc6	Qf6	89%
13	f3	Nd6	100%
14	e4	dxc4	100%
15	Be2	e5	100%
16	d5	Nb8	55%
17	Nb4	Bb7	93%
18	a4	a5	100%
19	Na2	Nd7	50%
20	Ba3	Rac8	50%
21	Rab1	Qg5	60%
22	Kh1	fxe4	61%
23	fxe4	Qg6	89%
24	Rxf8+	Rxf8	100%
25	Bxd6	Rf2	100%
26	Rg1	cxd6	100%
27	Qd1	Nf6	73%
28	Bf3	Nxe4	93%
29	Nc1	Rd2	53%
30	Bxe4	Rxd1	100%
31	Bxg6	Rxg1+	100%
32	Kxg1	hxg6	100%
33	Resign	---

Voting Open

Today's Suggested Moves have been posted, and the voting polls will open SATURDAY @12PM EDT and close at MONDAY 12AM EDT (Sunday Night), in order to give time for enough deliberation before the votes are cast. Don't have a username/Id yet? Get one here! and take some credit for your contributions!

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Strategy Discussion

Contents 1 Voting Open 2 Strategy Discussion 2.1 Suggested Move Summary 2.2 Bd6 2.2.1 Voting 2.3 Bxc3 2.3.1 Voting 2.4 Be7 2.4.1 Voting 3 Specualtive Moves Lacking Support 3.1 Ba5 3.2 a5 3.3 a3 3.4 dxc4 3.5 Nc6 3.6 Nxc3

Our Pawn at d5 is still being threatened by the pawn at c4, but it is protected by pawn at e6. Our Knight at e4 is threatened by Ze's Bishop and Queen, but is protected by our pawns at d5 and f5. Our Bishop is threatened by Ze's a3 pawn, which forces us to exchange or retreat it. Also, since Ze castled his c3 Knight is no longer pinned and is free to move.

At this juncture, we need to decide whether to exchange pieces, retreat, or formulate a suitable counter-threat. Some of our options are listed below to get things started.

Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some common middlegame tactics as well.

Also, please don't be too hesitant to suggest your own move in this section. Just use * to begin a line and add your idea, even if you aren't familiar with notation, or don't feel comfortable updating the boards/suggestions yourself, there are plenty of us that will be more than willing to set them up for you (and keep everything organized) ßrigade^rant

Suggested Move Summary

Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bd6

Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bxc3

Speculative Move Speculative Move: 9. a3 Be7

Bd6

• Retreats our Dark Bishop to safety, however Ze gains tempo and can begin to force us to respond to his game. Has both advantages and disadvantages, we're vulnerable to a pawn push c5, but we also control e5 and h2. ßrigade^rant
  • Actually .. i completely forgot about our b6! .. If he advances 10. c5 bxc5 and we win a free pawn .. so in actuality that's one disadvantage off the table. (if he responds with 11. dxc5 Bxc5 and we're still up a pawn. ßrigade^rant
    • white's move of c5 remains good for black. Kingpatzer 14:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• I like this move (even though it's defensive), because it also sets us up to do a Qh4 and Bxh2 at some point in the future, and start hard charging for the king. (although now that I've typed that, I'm getting more worried as we get into midgame that Ze is snooping around over here...) 66.47.159.86 12:14, 7 July 2006 (PDT) (aka Mike)

• what is blacks' response to 10. cxd5? I see nothing good here. Kingpatzer 12:15, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• 10 cxd5 Nxc3 and we can retake the pawn safely if we so choose, similiar situation to below though .. we need to look at the entire board, not just one threat. ßrigade^rant

• 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5 12. c4 and black is positionally busted. Against even an FM you can safetly resign Kingpatzer 12:55, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• Evaluating that line against the best that Bxc3 10. cxd5 has to offer .. I think we're in a better position. Our Dark bishop makes a difference, and our Knight is still advanced. Plus, 12. c4 Bb7 or Be6 is a good position for us. ßrigade^rant

• I can't tell from the above: Does anyone still think this is a viable move given 10. cxd5 ? Jeff
  • I do not. I see cxd5 as putting black in a real bind. Kingpatzer 16:19, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I still don't really see the argument for this move as opposed to Bxc3. Has anyone shown a reasonable line out of cxd5 that doesn't leave us with our position on the board trashed and white about to open hell? Has anyone found a really horrible line out of Bxc3 or some reason why we wouldn't want to make a clean exchange while keeping the initiative and our basic structure? It seems to me that Bxc3 followed by moving our other bishop to a3 ends the cxd5 threat, puts Ze under pressure, and retains the initiative. The downside, i guess, is a bishop knight exchange. How is this bad? What am I missing? Wophugus
    • Basically, in essence .. both moves are going to open up the board a lot (I'll have to put some prospective boards up for the Bxc3 thread as well) .. and having 2 bishops in an open game (when the center is in flux and not jammed up with pawns) is more valuable than having a bishop and a knight. They control more space and have more range of movement. Another consideration: cxd5 is not a definite move, but even if it is made, we voted for b6 in the last line to avoid losing our dark bishop .. if we just sacrifice it off now, we're changing gears mid-stride. So we have to play the position that we have, and I think that this move probably capitalizes on it. ßrigade^rant
      • except in the Bxc3 line it's not an open position after Ba6. It's very much to black's advantage, while in these lines black is working hard to maintain equality. After Ba6 in the Bxc3 lines white can't blow up the center and has to figure out something better to do.
• I'm setting up some boards to do a side-by-side comparison 2 moves out .. it's the easiest way to visualize the differences between the two moves resulting from cxd5 (the only threat we've found to either position) Here .. it nullifies the threat of cxd4 ... looks like a winner to me .. I'm sold. ßrigade^rant

Voting

1. VOTE by ßrigade^rant 09:11, 8 July 2006 (PDT): I all three moves are playable, but I like this the best.

Bxc3

• Possibly the best of the exchange variations, although we're exchanging our (slightly more valuable) dark bishop for his (slightly weaker) Knight, however we maintain tempo and control his next move (most likely bxc3, but there may be alternatives). ßrigade^rant
• not "possibly" definitely. Simply the only move that doesn't leave black in a pssive position after white blows up the center. Kingpatzer 12:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
• Yeah, I can't believe Ze didn't do 9. cxd5. Bxc3 capitalizes on his goof and brings us closer to parity. I wonder if he's toying with us or if he's just not trying or not very good? Jeff
• But what happens if he doesn't use bxc3 to recapture? Is Bxe4 decisive? (Each of us has lost a piece, and has a piece threatened, so it's still an even exchange) .. ßrigade^rant
  • Yes, Bxe4 is strongly in black's favor. 10. Bxe4 fxe4. Black would then have captured a Bishop & a Knight, while White would only have captured a Knight. White could then take our bishop, but would end up trading his Knight for a pawn. Ze's only real move is bxc3, giving us control on our next move. Shadowcrash 12:56, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • Conversation thread relocated Here to keep discussion on topic.
• the most promising line from this position is 9. ... Bxc3 10. bxc3 Ba6 (pressures the c pawn and helps protect our center) 11. Ne5 when we have a couple of choices:

11. .. dxc4 is playable but dangerous as we pretty much agree to trash our pawn structure after 12. Bxe4 fxe4 13. Qxe4 we're effectively a pawn down (we can't keep the e pawn for long) and will still probably lose. However, we have a good line for our bishop and some temporary advantages that we might be able to make use.

11. .. Ng5 12. cxd5 Bxd3 13. Nxd3 Qxd5 14. c4 and we have a better pawn structure, though still not optimal, two knights against a bishop-knight pair. We can make this work but we'll have to be carefull to trade off our backward pawn as soon as possible.

11. .. Nf6 plays out the same as the above line more or less.

in both of the above lines, instead of Qxd5, exd5 can be played which leads to a better pawn structure but presents a challenge in stopping a future pawn advance by white should we ever lose the c pawn. Kingpatzer 13:41, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• You forgot one (if you're playing them out this far .. i still think more than 2 moves is too much variation:

11. .. Nd7 12. Nd6 and we move our queen .. still it's an ugly position, our bishop stuck on the a file and the entire center still in flux .. I'm starting to lean more towards 9. .. Bd6 so we can control e5 and keep Ze on the lookout for mating sacrifices. ßrigade^rant

• • Clearly Black will have to move the queen at some point. I think 11. Ne5 Qe8 and then what can White do? Jeff

• I see it going 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5 which isn't all that bad. Geedubber 16:56, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• Take a look at the comparison link below .. losing both bishops is a killer, and we're fighting a losing game. After 12. Qxd3 I expect to see 13. Ne5 and then 14. a4 (for Ba3 .. mobilizing his bishop)ßrigade^rant

• I'm a bit fatigued. Mark me down as

# '''VOTE''' by [[User:AmericanJeffBowden|Jeff]]: Brings Black closer to parity

• I've set up some boards to do a side-by-side comparison between the two moves .. it's the easiest way to visualize the differences between the two moves resulting from cxd5 (the only threat we've found to either position) Here .. it helped me visualize the weakness in trading off our dark bishop. ßrigade^rant

wait i don't get it. why would we do 12. Qxd3 Qxd5 and not 12. Qxd3 exd5 Geedubber 23:10, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• since I can barely manage to edit this page let alone set up side by side boards (damn wiki gods!) I'll try and explain where I deviate from Brigade's analysis and why. After 9. ... Bxc3, Ze has three interesting forcing choices in bxc3 or cxd5. He also has some other options in moves like Ne5 and Be2. Let's look at those first.

10. Ne5 b5!! Yes, that looks wierd. Someone who plays only by principles instead of by calculating out the moves will think it's wrong. But, believe it or not, Ze is stuck for a response. After a few moves fighting things out in the center, with best play the result will be a locked center with us having a few targets in his Knight and slightly backward e-pawn, while he will have the b-file. It'll be an even game with a slight advantage to us!

10. Be2 Bxb2 11. BxB Ba6 here, Ze might decide to temporarily give up a pawn to open up the B file so his pieces can have some more space to play in. This would be devistating except that we can use the Ba6 square to fight for the a6-f1 diagonal. Ze's pieces are, for the moment, less coordinated than ours and we can make use of that to buy us time to better position ourselves to defend his coming queenside attack. This would actually be a fun variation to play as both sides have soem strong pluses and strong minuses, so the game would be interesting for a number of moves.

Ok, those are the non-capturing moves, now let's look at the more serious problems we have to face:

10. bxc3 Ba6 The reason for this response is simple, Ze's advantage lies in his superior pawn structure, but we can attack that structure at it's weakest point. The c4 pawn can only be defended by pieces, while we can attack it with pieces and pawns. Now if cxd5 Bxd3 leaves Ze with a bad bishop against two knights, an advantage for black! So he has to find some other way to play. The most likely choice now is 11. Ne5 opting for counter play. But we have a nice resource in 11. ... c5. Now any attempt to liquidate the center still leaves him with the same bad bishop versus good knights scenerio. This is fine line for black and we should welcome this line of play!!

10. cxd5 this move attempts to complicate the game and delays capturing our bishop to try and obtain additional advantages. But after 10. ... Bxd4 11. exd4 exd5 12. Ne5 Kh8 (to get off the potentially weak a2-g8 diagonal) white's advantages (bishop pair on an open board, better development) are set off by his weakness, an isolated blocked pawn) We have to be carefull here because the bishop pair can be very strong on an open board, but we have lots of good counterplay.

• Conclussion: this is the best move we have available to us. Play through the response to bxc3 of Ba6 and it's easy to see that this game is quite equal. Black has to play accurately, it's true, but white has no hope of any lasting advantage in any of these lines. The important line is this one: 10. bxc3 Ba6! 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5 (see diagram). Now white's problem, and the reason this is GOOD for black is that his bishop sits on dark squares, as do all of his center pawns. That means that his pawns are in the way of his own Bishop. He has a long term problem that his mobility is hampered. meanwhile we have several positional pluses -- on the queen side we have a superior pawn structure and a 4-3 pawn advantage. The kingside isn't a worry because it's immobile for white due to his own knight and a need to not create a backward e pawn. Black has multiple outposts for his knights in white's space on c4, e4 and g4, and can also make use of the a4 square due to the pawn on a3, which is hopelessly weak. White meanwhile can't do anything usefull with his bishop, his queen is bottled up, and he only has the e5 square for his knight, which we can get rid of as well with Nc6 or Nd7. White's only good feature is the half-open b file, which is the only thing that keeps his game from being completely dominated by black at this point. In short, any claim that Ba6 is a mistake is simply ignoring the reality that knight versus bishop in a semi-closed position favors the knight when the bishop is bad and behind it's own pawns (as is in this case) and the knight has good outposts, again as in this case. This move holds no fear for black. If Brigade wants to challenge me on that, I'll gladly play a couple of games from move 11., but I find no significant improvements for white. he's not lost, but he's defensive and struggling to hold onto his advantage after this series of moves. Kingpatzer 07:52, 8 July 2006 (PDT)

Voting

Be7

• I would like to keep the queen pointed up the middle while allowing the bishop to aplly pressure to the diagonal. d5 is vulnerable as well as e4.
  • Also potentially allows for us to respond to Ne5 with Bf6 .. ßrigade^rant
• as with Bd6, what's the response to cxd5, besides tears? Kingpatzer 12:18, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• I see three responses to cxd5, but we need to evaluate all of ze's options .. he's shown us in past moves (as well as this one) that he makes moves based on something that we cannot understand (for good or bad) ßrigade^rant .. none of us proposed a3 during the last discussion .. that said:

9. .. exd5 maintains material exchange, but isolates our pawns at d5 and f5.

9. .. Nxc3 10. bxc3 Qxd5 might look a bit better, but deserves further analysis.

• I think you mean 9. ... Bd7 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5

9. .. c5. Let him have the pawn. He has a myriad of responses and we'll end up a pawn down, but what move can we make on 10. to capitalize on this?

• So... 10. cxd5 exd5 11.Nd5? Salmancini

• Think it loses for us. 11. Nd5 Qxd5 12. Bc4 pins our Queen .. so we're losing a pawn unless there's another option here. ßrigade^rant

• we can't evaluate all possible responses to a move, the tree's too big. We can safetly ignore those moves of his that negatively impact him. That said let's look at these lines:

9. .. Be7 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxd5 and now we have to waste tempo moving the bishop so Bb6 12. Nf4 and black is really hurting. we'll have a hard time protecting the a8-h1 diagonal and we're down a pretty important pawn.

9. .. Be7 10. cxd4 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5 12. e4 Qd6 13. exf5 exf5 14. Qb3+ Kh8 15. Ne5 black's not busted here but he's got a long way to go to prove it. Ze's completely developed and entirely passive.

You lost me here .. cxd4 doesn't appear to be a valid move .. ßrigade^rant

sorry 9. .. Be7 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Qxd5 ...

9. .. Be7 10. c5 (once again BAD move in these sorts of positiosn, but we can dream) bxd5 11. b3 Ba6 etc. more or less equal game. But we get here by Ze making a very sub-optimal move Kingpatzer 12:52, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

• Conversation thread relocated Here to keep discussion on topic.

• Alright .. it's looking like our best prospects are Bd6, Bd7, and Bxc3 .. why don't we iron out the positives/negatives between Bd6 and Bd7 Be7 first, figure out which one plays best, then debate retreat and exchange after that? We have all weekend to make a decision, best to use the time we have imho. ßrigade^rant
  • sounds good... i'm gonna go set up a board to look through Be7 Kingpatzer 14:29, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
  • I assume that must be a typo where Bd7 is considered to be among black's 'best prospects'?
• This defensive play with the bishop clears it from the possibility of Ze advancing his knigt, threatening the bishop if we were only to move it to d6.
• ok, here' my best shot at analysis for his move, and by and large it's not as bad as I initially thought. Main line is: 10. cxd5 Nxc3 11. bxc3 exd5 12. c4 c6 when white has a few different plans but by and large only a slight advantage, due mainly to our poor development and bad pawn structure. Black is in for a defensive game, but might hold the draw. Possible deviations:

10. Ne2 c5 holds no fear for us

10. Bd2 Ba6 is actually quite nice

10. b4 c6

11. Qxc3 exd5 12. b4 c6 and we're ok

11. dxe6 is a blunder of course after and good for black

My conclussion is that this is, while not perfectly sound, playable. I still prefere Bxc3, but this is not as bad as I originally thought. Kingpatzer 07:14, 8 July 2006 (PDT)

Voting

Specualtive Moves Lacking Support

The following moves have been discussed and have been found lacking. Please feel free to add other lines above (just copy the speculative templates and paste them above this section), but these all were found to be flawed. The complete boards and discussions of the moves are located in the Magic Dumpster.

Ba5

a5

a3

dxc4

Nc6

Nxc3