Talk:Fabuloso Friday 2/Fabuloso Chess/Move9/compare

From zefrank

Comparing the merits/disadvantages of both boards.

Here's a side-by-side comparison of both initial moves.	Bd6 - Start Position Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bd6	Bxc3 - Start Position Speculative Move: 9. a3 Bxc3
For the sake of this debate, we're assuming that cxd5 will be Ze's next (unforced) move. In the Bd6 line, this capture is countered by forcing a Knight trade. In the Bxc3 line, Ze is forced to recapture with his pawn or suffer a loss of material. It was suggested that Ba6 was the best move to make following this.	Bd6 - Knight Trade Speculative Move: 10. cxd5 Nxc3	Develop Bishop Speculative Move: 10. bxc3 Ba6
Ze completes the exchange by capturing our Knight, allowing us to pick up the pawn we lost with exd5, equalizing in material. Here Ze makes his (assumed) cxd5 move, which forces us to respond with Bxd3 trading both bishops in a (now open) position. Bear in mind that if we respond 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Bxa6 is decisive, as White has another bishop on the board and this will force our other Knight to a6 to recapture (forced).	Recapture and Equalize Speculative Line: 11. bxc3 exd5	Bxc3 Line - cxd5 Capture Speculative Move: 11. cxd5 Bxd3
Ze advances his Knight to e5, protected by his pawn (and blocking our d6 bishop), we can respond by Be6 (developing our bishop to the center .. see pic) or Bb7 (the long diagonal, covering our d5 pawn and our potential Nc6 move) Pawns capture and board equalizes. Originally Qxd5 was suggested for black, but those defending this move prefer exd5.	Advance and Develop Speculative Line: 12. Ne5 Be6	Recapture and Equalize Speculative Move: 12. Qxd3 exd5

Discussion

To be honest, I didn't even see the huge threat that cxd5 exposes in the Bxc3 line until I put this comparison together ... if there's another move that Black can make (aside from Ba6, which is flawed) then we need to analyze that .. because based on THIS information, Bd6 is clearly a superior move.

The only other alternative to 10. .. Ba6 I can see is c6, protecting from the cxd5 exchange, but this locks up our only bishop on the board, and also restricts our Knight moves to a6 and d7.

Ultimately, we maintain a stronger queenside pawn dominance in the Bd6 line (which is useful in the endgame, negligible in the middlegame), but strong Kingside pawns in the Bxd3 line (which, in this circumstance, is inferior).

• Well I am convinced that saving the bishop is the thing to do. Any chance we can see a side by side comparison like this of Bd6 vs. Be7? I concede to the chess heavyweights who apparently have chess analysis software at their disposal. If onlythey would agree:) SalMancini
  • Too bad I'm not using analysis software .. it ruins the spirit of the game. The one arguement that has been brought to the forefront is the 'imminent' cxd5 capture .. which has been proven as an advantage to our position. ßrigade^rant
• this analysis is flawed because of the assumption that knight versus bishop always favors the bishop. This isn't true. at all!! The important line is this one: 10. bxc3 Ba6! 11. cxd5 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 exd5 (see diagram). Now white's problem, and the reason this is GOOD for black is that his bishop sits on dark squares, as do all of his center pawns. That means that his pawns are in the way of his own Bishop. He has a long term problem that his mobility is hampered. meanwhile we have several positional pluses -- on the queen side we have a superior pawn structure and a 4-3 pawn advantage. The kingside isn't a worry because it's immobile for white due to his own knight and a need to not create a backward e pawn. Black has multiple outposts for his knights in white's space on c4, e4 and g4, and can also make use of the a4 square due to the pawn on a3, which is hopelessly weak. White meanwhile can't do anything usefull with his bishop, his queen is bottled up, and he only has the e5 square for his knight, which we can get rid of as well with Nc6 or Nd7. White's only good feature is the half-open b file, which is the only thing that keeps his game from being completely dominated by black at this point. In short, any claim that Ba6 is a mistake is simply ignoring the reality that knight versus bishop in a semi-closed position favors the knight when the bishop is bad and behind it's own pawns (as is in this case) and the knight has good outposts, again as in this case. This move holds no fear for black. If Brigade wants to challenge me on that, I'll gladly play a couple of games from move 11., but I find no significant improvements for white. he's not lost, but he's defensive and struggling to hold onto his advantage after this series of moves. This is because, btw, while 8. ... b6 was a mistake, Ze failed to capitalize on it and made an even bigger mistake in return in a3! Kingpatzer 07:52, 8 July 2006 (PDT)
• You're forgetting a few important points:

Knight/Bishop tends to be stronger than 2 knights (especially in the endgame with pawns all over the board), especially when confronted with a pawn chain that stretches across the board. If the pawns were isolated to one side, then yes the knights are stronger, but not in this case.

First, you are mis-applying a general principle and you're forgetting that calculations trump general principles. In my database of ~ 4 million GM level games, knight & bishop versus 2 knights with the bishop player having at least 1 center pawn on a square of his own color favors the 2 knights. It's a slight advantage, but it is statistically signficant. But ignoring that important point, the simple reality is that after 10. bxc3 Ba6 white has no good plan. None. Show me what white can do from that position. Don't just tell me that he's worse, prove it! Kingpatzer 09:47, 8 July 2006 (PDT)

In position 12, look at the board as of move 12. We've exchanged off yet another major piece (thus approaching the endgame) and still in an undeveloped position. In potentially 2 moves (a3 and Ba3) White has his bishop in the game .. and our undeveloped Knight is a liability (have to move out to d7 to develop, then where to go from here?). ßrigade^rant

• show me how he gets there and what he does with that Bishop when it has no safe squares to play on. Give me a line, not an assertion. Kingpatzer 09:47, 8 July 2006 (PDT)

Contrast that with the Bd6 line .. white has no realistic threats and is still bottled up .. we're in control of the board and have a superior force (c4 is easily countered by c6) .. it's a better position overall and gives us the ability to get our last piece developed so we can start planning for an endgame strategy. ßrigade^rant

• black's resulting structure in the Bd6 line is inferior to what happens here. It's a very poor second choice. Be7 is slightly better, but not by much. Kingpatzer 09:47, 8 July 2006 (PDT)

• (in the Bxc6 line) how do you respond to the threat of c4 .. you don't see it as isolating both your d and f pawns? (I'm guessing 13. c4 c6 14. cxd5 cxd5 .. which isn't pretty leaving 2 isolated pawns against and entire legion chained together ..)

• Look at how the games play out Here .. Black has a pawn in the Bd6 line on the a-file that has White's King and Queen tied up trying to prevent it's advance, and White's pawn chain is going to fall apart quickly on the kingside. It's a tough game .. but on the Bxd3 side, Black is fighting a losing battle quickly. In both situations, the side with the bishop is in better shape than the one with the Knight, and faces a winning endgame.