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August 16, 2006

Time disconnecting the dots

TIME Magazine Archive Article -- Why the Middle East Crisis Isn't Really About Terrorism -- Aug. 7, 2006


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Comments (58)

not much to say about this. Other then that it's a very good article. thanks.

HN@il

Posted by: herenot at August 16, 2006 12:15 PM

It not being about terrorism is obvious. If there is no weapons and we cut off the head of the snake then it's pretty ovious that it's not about terrorism. That article just stated what i arleady knew. Waiste of time for someone with common sence.

Posted by: Phast Phood at August 16, 2006 3:04 PM

phast phood...you seem to be a man of great wisdom...and poor spelling...and grammar.

what weapons are you talking about? what snake?

moron.

Posted by: dempsy at August 16, 2006 3:18 PM

If people would only study how terror organizations work before trying to make the world fit into their world views.

The reason for Bush's proclamation to fight any terror organization is because these organizations are cooperating. Saying "they're cooperating only because we're hunting them" is like saying "they'll stop hate us if we'll pay them" - it's based on idelogies that have no place in their frame of mind.

When a Pakistani terrorist group is looking for British passports, to attack U.S. airplanes, who do you think will help supply them? Even if it's just so that next time, they can provide access to training camps on explosive use on Saudi soil.

For examples, see events like the PFLP/RAF cooperation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozo_Okamoto) or for more current events, just take a look at the tri-border area... (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/11/07/terror.triborder/index.html)

Posted by: surprised at August 16, 2006 3:27 PM

surprised - did you even read the article...it exactly shows how you are full of shit.

Posted by: dempsy at August 16, 2006 3:37 PM

Dempsy - of course I read the article. The writer is taking the view "since Hizballa is Shiite and focusing on attacking Israeli targets, they are not a threat to the U.S."
She ignores the training, money and fake passports that Hizballa activists (not the leadership) provide to other activists. As well as the fact that Hizballa activists are used as the "long reach" of Iran, e.g. to prevent any criticism on their nuclear weapons plan.

Posted by: surprised at August 16, 2006 3:54 PM

I love how much she doesn't say. Take the key paragraph:

"The U.S. has interests in the Middle East, such as protecting Israel. Some of them are subtle and require explaining, like resisting Iran's efforts to expand its influence. And many of them have nothing to do with global terrorism."

"Interests" being a euphemism for oil and the men who own oil-related industries. Men who own our government, and so decide what is a "US interest."

"Protecting Israel" is in our interest, how? Is there one historical example of how Israel is an ally? One instance where Israel has helped US standing in the world? No one in the media dares talk about the 911 Israel spy ring that withheld information on Al-Qaeda while infiltrating our national security. (Look it up yourself: hundreds of Israeli spies deported/not-arrested in November of 2001.)

The Israel lobby is the most powerful on Capitol Hill. That's why it's called simply "The Lobby." It extracts from US taxpayers:
$10,000 for each Israeli citizen per annum
$3.5 billion a year and rising
$100 billion to date.
Tiny Israel receives more aid than Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined.

Compare the devastating cuts to American social services passed by the House last year, totalling $50 billion. Compare these cuts to Israeli aid increases. Compare their $2 billion surplus to our $477 billion record deficit.

And the aid is for what? So Israel can brutalize Palestinian natives. So Israel can say fuck you to countless UN resolutions that tell it to get out of Palestinian lands stolen in 1967. For what? The enmity of the Arab world for anything American.

Why do we give all this money? Because the Israel Lobby places Israel above all, above US interests, above world peace.

Take the line "resisting Iran's efforts to expand its influence." Never mind that it is against international law for any nation, including Israel or Iran, to develop nuclear weapons. But if Iran is to prevent Israel from becoming the hegemonic power over the Arab & Persian world, isn't a nuclear bomb the only option it is given?

Never mind that it was the United States that overthrew Dr.Mossadagh, the democratic reformer of Iran, before we installed a brutal Hussein-like dictator called the Shah.

Has any American ever considered that it is not our right to circumscribe or interfere with Iran or the Middle East at all? No matter what the oil and Israel lobby tells us we have an obligation to do.

The article only begins to liberate Americans mired in the quagmire of American propaganda. Think about all it does not say.

Not to do so, as lame duck Bush and Elmer Fudd Cheney eye Iran, and read their Revelations, is a betrayal to the species.

Israeli and thieves, neo-cons, American leaders, weapons salesmen, oil industrialists: these bastards are driving us to unimaginable war.

And all Americans can do is suck their thumbs, waiting for some asshole-o-crat to save them.

But it's all worth it, as long as Israel is ok, and the oil barons make their killing.

Remember: Willie Nelson's new Mercedes runs entirely on VEGETABLE oil. The technology awaits investment. It awaits $100 billion dollars.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 16, 2006 10:31 PM

MB it must be so easy. If there is a problem anywhere, you already know why it happened. Nothing horrible can occur in the world that can't be pointed straight back to the US in some fashion. Interesting.

BTW, my fellow engineer is doing the vegetable oil thing and is finding it difficult to obtain large enough amounts of free waste oil to make it worth while. I wonder how much more corn, soy, etc would we need to grow to make this viable for most drivers to use.

Posted by: Prairie Dog at August 17, 2006 6:23 PM

Prairie Dog:

Thanks for the response, and the information about real experiences with bio-fuel.

A major problem with alternative fuels is that research was stopped by the Reagan government--the famous ripping out of the solar panels from the White House illustrates his budget slashing. Without heavy investment, alternative fuels will never be able to reach fossil fuel output. The political will and capital is just not there. Bio-fuel is no answer, but it can make a few cars run. Your friend should check out better technologies--a little more expensive, but a good long-term investment.

As to the America-the-root-of-all-evil skepticism, I understand your call for measurement. How do we measure the effects our funding of terrorist groups and dictators has had on the Middle East? Our funding and weapon-flooding of Afghan mujahadeen, Al Qaeda, Sadaam Hussein's Baathists, the Iranian Shah, the list is very long.

The measurement is available now, in the after-effects. We are living in the nightmare unleashed in the Cold War. The scale can be measured in the cost to blood and treasure of these current unwinnable wars. In the past when we wanted to overthrow someone, we sent in the CIA to cause trouble, and gave guns to the wacky right-wing insurgents who would conduct the coup d'etat for us. Simple. The we made our puppet dictator rule with iron-fist, while our corporations stole what Hugo Chavez calls "the people's" natural resources.

Today such countries put up a fight. Today they kick our ass in war. Today they kill our soldiers. Today they give us quagmire when yesterday the CIA operatives called all the shots. Today Vietnamese-style resistance is the rule. And no matter how psycho we get, they'll get more psycho. And have no doubt, killing civilians is PSYCHO. And that's exactly what we do. Arabs and Muslims and Persians have Al-Jazeera, and very long memories. They will not allow us to dismiss their dead as gooks. They remember, just like we do. They value their citizens, their children. How dare you forget to measure such depravity? American depravity. Have you lost your mind with the rest of this TV-begoggled nation?

I appreciate skepticism, but skepticism without a basic understanding of America's neo-colonial adventures (massacres, genocides, dictators, terrorists, gross resource theft) and the importance of them, makes it very difficult to talk.

Most Americans are terribly ignorant. It makes talking to them about the real world, in a time of war, like talking to a child about inflation or creeping recession. They simply don't understand.

But we will learn. The hard way.

Watch what happens as Bush becomes a lame duck.

You think it's bad now? The recession hasn't even hit yet. And no weapon-fueled economy is going to plug the hole on the horizon.

Wake up or be rudely awakened.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 18, 2006 12:52 AM

ManhattanBrendan, you are saying many seemingly interesting things, but there are some problems with you rhetoric:

1 - it is totaly a one sided, simplistic, view. the fact that you used "fuck" in relation to israel seems to be a good indication of your feelings twards the only trully democratic state in the middle east.

2 - you don't state any real facts. all your arguments are all based on speculation, in some cases paranoia, and when regarding israel - probably hate (that 911 conspiracy theory you imply is laughable as well as digusting).

3 - the thought that the US has no interests in the middle east other then oil is simplistic, and, infact wrong. Israel, for example has no oil, yet it holds important R&D facilities for some rather large american corporations.

4- I know this point has been brought over and over, but 911 can be viewed as the result of the US's lack of actions in dealing with Bin-ladden - who, if I should so remind you, tried to blow up the WTC two times PRIOR to 911.

"Wake up or be rudely awakened."

you mean, like in 9/11? or pearl harbour? if you are not prepared - you are suprised. The US has to be prepared. there is no alternative. You can question the tactics used, but being blind will not ease the hate Iran has for the US, which BTW, has more to do with the US past policies regarding the Shah and the Iraq-Iran war - not so much as you'd think with Israel.

The Nuclear ballence of power, which you mentune with regard to Iran and Israel (who has never publicly admited to having these weapons, nor has threatened anyone that they'lll use them) compeared to Iran, who have publicly stated the they will distroy Israel, given the chance.. This is not a "ballance of power" situation. A ballance of power is obtained when you have two powers who have a common fear of distruction based on the implications of atomic war. Iran is a theological dictatorship with a blind faith that glorifies death. Israel is a democratic, western society. What kind of ballence of power do you think can be maintaned here? Iran HAS to be nutralised, or else - not only israel might suffer the consiquences - but also the US, and all of western civilization.


One thing we probably agree is that going into Iraq was not a smart move by the US administration. Actually it was a hopelessly stupid move. It definetly caused more damage then any percivable strategic or economic gain to anyone (other then a few american cooperations).

Posted by: czman at August 18, 2006 12:47 PM

Czman

You criticize my rhetoric, and then offer nothing more. Except your laughable attempts to spell the word balance, variously as "ballence" and "ballance" and "balence."

9/11 conspiracy theory implied? What are you talking about? The 9/11 Report satisfies me. Islamic militants trained by the CIA to fight the Soviet Union constructed a terror network that planned and finally hit the United States.

That's a key point. The US once was able to manipulate Middle Eastern countries with a little training of right-wing terrorists by the CIA. Give the muja AK47s, they overthrow a problematic government in Afghanistan. Now, it takes 100s of billions of dollars and massive armies to try to do the same thing, and yet it still fails. Czman's glib "Iraq was not a smart move" is so grossly insufficient it makes one want to laugh, think better of it, and then cry. Iran is much much stronger than sanction-strapped Iraq Czman. Please enlist in the army before you have us send more American troops to go an die for the "security" of Israel. By "security" Zionists mean hegemonic control of the Middle East.

I think it's cute the way you number your response 1) 2) 3) and 4) like in a Powerpoint presentation, and then say 1) nothing 2) lies 3) foolish remarks 4) empty rhetoric.

Lebanon was a fine democracy until Israel blew it up. It had those markings of a fine democracy of which Israel so fundamentally lacks: multi-cultural, multi-religious power-sharing, and a reputation among its neighbors for being a good neighbor. Israel is rich, sure, but it is not a democracy. It is a racist Jewish state, that denies full citizenship to its Arab residents, regulating for example miscegnation laws that prohibit the marriage of an Israeli woman to a Palestinian man, among other such backward religious-fundamentalist laws. Israel is rich, because we give it 20% of our foreign aid each year. And those R&D contributions you talk about, are weapons-related. Such R&D the world could do without, thank you. Fuck Israel. I don't like supremacist states. I said the same thing about South Africa. When Israel drops apartheid, I love Israel again. I'll be nicer to Israel when it moves back into its UN-granted borders, and stops killing kids for the sake of "security."

Essentially the tone Czman takes is a glib claim to superior understanding. And yet when you read his comments, you see that all he manages to do is dismiss facts with the vague "it's so much more complicated than that." Of course it is asshole, and I am happy to provide additional reading materials to anyone who asks for them. In the meantime, Czman's simplistic defensiveness offers no contradictory information or new facts. He simply says, "please, just listen to the official narrative." It will all work out in the end.

It will not, unless people start participating in the project of thoughtfullness.

But if you want the nutshell version mine is: for oil and Israel the US has fucked up the Middle East with massive funding for dictators, weapons, Israel and now invasion. Islamic fundamentalism is a disgusting revolt against this.

Czman simply offers: terrorism bad, let's fight.

No. Let's talk. Let's invest our war budget in alternative fuels. Let's use some fucking common sense. Let's stop devising our foreign policy around lobby groups that put oil, Israel and weapon-production above all else.

Too simple? Ask me for citations. I'm happy to research these issues with anyone who is intellectually curious, and realistic about our future.

Brendan

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 18, 2006 8:39 PM

Wow MB. Thats some strong language, here and on your website. You appreciate skepticism, but only if people understand Americas neo-colonial adventures, otherwise, we're all thumb sucking babies waiting to be rescued, is that it? Hm, that sounds like some shit you heard elsewhere and regurgitated here, maybe its from the Atlantic Monthly, I dont care. Only an asshat would refer to any of Americas history of colonization as adventures, an asshat who refuses to acknowledge the powerful repercussions of that colonial past here at home. Sure its easy to point the finger at the Midlle East and say its all for oil, but how many computers have you bought and junked in your life? Guess what chump, that shits made from petrololeum. It's interesting how you suggest that you are the one in the forum who is realistic about the future. Are you? Can you grow your own food? Do you have a support network of people you can rely on for aid? Could you run for your life? Or are you one of the lucky few who will never need to do these things in America, now or in the future? The point is, a realistic view of the future might include things like learning to live on less for example and changing our extravagant lifestyles rather than focusing on how "evil" everyone else is, since that doesn't accomplish anything. Join the military. Walk more. Eat less. Spend less. Whatever, but dont sit on your fat ass complaining in Manhattan of all places about how shitty everywhere else is.
And Prairie Dog what kind of engineer is your freind? A diesel mechanic? Or a biochemical engineer? Because it does make a difference. Biodiesel is a fine alternative and abundant, unless you live in Hoonah.

Posted by: kate at August 18, 2006 11:18 PM

ummm...no. its my wensite. dammit...

Posted by: zefrank at August 19, 2006 1:19 AM

Seriously Ze, thanks for creating this site and thinking so well and making the art that you make. We all look up to you, even the sniping snides among us.

And kate, ur calling me out on being an asshat. Where are you from? What strange dialect do they speak there?

You also call me out on being a hypocrit. Because I use petroleum-based products. Oil is not in and of itself an evil substance, say like the sperm that made you. (Nah, I'm just playing, don't get mad, you called me an asshat, remember). The "evil" is asshole-o-crat greed and future-ignoring myopia. Geopolitics and war to preserve an out-dated fossil fuel infrastructure (including cars) is pure status-quo preservation. It's not good society building. I'm pissed at that.

You are too it seems. We all are, but we suck our thumbs watching democrats jenuflect to those aliens outside Manhattan, and hope these dems have some secret plan to stop the smirking fascists.

And my ass is not fat. It's firm and tight and squeaky clean. (Like an Arab I wash after bowel movements). And you can lick it sweetly if you want. In fact wear it on your face, or like a hat perhaps. (Just playing)

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 19, 2006 3:30 PM

Firm and squeaky clean you say? Hmm... The photos will be forthcoming, yes?
I dont really think you especially are a hypocrite, just that we all lament the situation we are in when we could do more to reduce our energy requirements, or say, join an armed resistance movement...Right. Really we are all capable of doing more than just sucking our thumbs and waiting.
And, come on, asshat is just funny-like poop or gaping hatchet wound.

Posted by: kate at August 19, 2006 9:04 PM

He's neither, we are all computer and electrical engineers. (We work at a major computer/server manufacturer) He's what you'd call an extremely early adopter.

He got his veggie oil modification as a kit on his diesel Toyota. He and a friend did research and rigged it up. When it works, it works great, they just have to get the engine above a certain temp and then switch over. The problem is that since he is such an early adopter, he's having to jury rig alot of things, filters and storage. Also, there have been failures, which he's had to fix or get around (such is the price of do-it-yourself).

He does have to work with restaurants for their waste oil. He seems to get most from Asian restaurants. I am not sure if they actually pay him to take it, or if its just free, the problem is that it takes at least three restaurants to provide enough, and he hasn't been able to find ones that keep a stable agreement with him.

My point of view is that while its actually a viable alternative, its not a replacement. The vast amount of oil that we'd need is staggering. We don't grow nearly enough. I imagine that if we tried to wean ourselves off petroleum we'd have to do it using several alternatives.

On the plus side(?) his car does make you hungry after a while.

Posted by: Prairie Dog at August 20, 2006 12:37 AM

Its too bad that there isnt a provider of waste oil in your town, I know there are a couple of them where I live and it's by no means a large town, but fairly affluent. What kind of climate do you live in? As in is is it fairly cold year round, and does your friend have a hot start or glow plug in his vehicle? A jacket water heater might make a difference but with those kinds of things you require energy so you would be burning more coal for example. Its tough. How old is his car? We did a modification on our vehicle and since it was fairly new it was pretty easy. And yeah, it smells like fries.

I dont think that anything could completely replace coal for our household energy needs or petroleum for our vehicles (which in comparison is extremely clean burning) since we all tend to use energy like it is inexhaustible and the demands would be too great at this point in time. The key is to reduce our needs and try to meet the reduced demand with alernatives as much as possible.

My family and I are trying to find the right balance now where we can live close enough to walk but still have enough space to grow food. Its extremely difficult and its nice to have the luxury of enough time to figure things out like carpools and crop rotation now, before there is any serious urgency, you know, before the depression comes in five years, hardy har har.
Its sad when I see houses at night where no one is obviously up or at home and there are four friggin lights burning away. Sure it makes great viewing since you can see everything inside from the darkened sidewalk, but thats a different matter.

Posted by: kate at August 20, 2006 9:51 AM

Interesting article in Harpers this week on the "Petrolocalypse."

It paints a not-so-cheery picture about alternative fuels, and the already-happening contraction of the power-grid.

The "coming" crash would coincide with the worst effects of global warming.

Problem with alternative fuels is that we have systematically failed to fund research that would get us viable alternatives in time for the oil-price scenario that comes about as we reach the peak on the bell curve of production.

Hence the wars for resources--like monkeys fighting over the last banana tree. The native monkeys versus the invading monkeys.

Alternative fuels are key, but so far we haven't found alternatives that can replace our 6.9 billion barrels. It takes fertilizer (petrol) to grow bio-mass, and farm (food) land.

On a wide-scale, our infrastructure is so absolutely petrol-based, switching over takes time and investment. Neither are forth-coming from the lobby whores in DC.

So we wait for the growing pains of a new world order. And hope the elites' plan of survival includes the average Joe Shmo.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 20, 2006 1:22 PM

MB where are the pics dammit? The gem that is your ass should be available for all to see! ;)

Not only does it take petrol to grow food on the agri-business scale, it also takes petrol to ship that crap all over the world. Those delicious raspberries from FLorida? Not only use fuel for growing and transporting, that shit's grown in what used to be the Everglades too. You know, the giant watershed in Florida home to thousands of native species not found anywhere else? Sad, but people have to have their berries in fuckin February.
Another interesting point is that monocultures generally dont use the land as well as native species or companion plantings etc (grasslands versus wheat or corn monocultures for example) and drain the soil of nutrients, thus requiring more petrochecmical fertilizer and more pesticides since they create a delightful buffet for insects.
Its pathetic how much land people waste growing their lawns when they could be growing all kinds of good junk to eat. Its not hard. You put seeds and shit (literally sometimes) in the ground, slap some water and wham! Food grows there.

Posted by: kate at August 20, 2006 9:23 PM

Kate,
Shoot, my ass ain't for sale. Never mind me giving away free pics on the Internet. Who you think I is?

My dick shots, however, are ready for download at www.canitbethatbig.com.

On the points you make about the ubiquitous use of oil (and you know I really mean lube) we're totally fucked (without lube).

There's literally no sustainable energy policy that thinks past the length of an election term. (don't ask me how long it is)

Oil prices rise and our infrastructure becomes too expensive to operate. (you know I operate like a sailor on shore leave)

Neo-liberalism (Thatcher-Reagan-Clinton-"free"-market trickle-down economics) has an answer. It states that as prices rise, the economic incentive to innovate kicks in.

The problem with that is the time frame needed to switch from the fossil fuel world into the eco-friendly world may not fit this impetus. (what the French call "shit hits fan while we were trying to take a shit")

Add to that the catastrophic water shortage and global warming phenomenon, and the puniness of American leadership becomes all too clear. (much smaller than my dick)

We don't like to say so, but it was politicians that let America's cities fall into urban decay in the 70s by encouraging factory flight through slavish adherence to neo-liberal ideology. People like me from NYC who look around and miss all the natives NYers who ran for their lives, really resent those politicians.

Just like they let vast swathes of America fall apart into a rust belt, it looks like they will let the oil infrastructure remain in place until the oil companies have made their killing and the rest of society has fallen into some kind of untenable decay.

I really think the only plan American leadership has is war. Looks like they plan to resuscitate pre-UN style conquest. How else to explain sinking a 1000 billion dollars into the Middle East?

Only the Amish will be spared. What's cool is we'll all get to witness it. Definitely exciting times. (Makes my cock swell.)

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 20, 2006 11:36 PM

ManhattanBrendan,

Typically Arab armies have launched several wars against Israel, and Muslim states openly threaten Israel's existence, and if Israel didn't have capital support for its military it would be absolutely screwed. That is my concern. I appreciate that you would not want to use this as a catch-all justification and that disaster can ensue anyway, but does such a prospect, of Israel without any support facing the wrath of numerous armies, bother you when you make this case about US interests and the "Israel lobby"?

Posted by: Dom at August 21, 2006 10:06 AM

Dom,

Jon Stewart said it best: Israel go back to its UN borders. Pay reparations to Palestinians so they can set up a viable state (with access to water). Make Jerusalem an international city.

Heal that gaping wound first. Then talk to me about Israel's need for $4 billion every year to buy more god damn bombs. The money would be better spent in the country whence come the tax payers.

Drop the poor Israel schtick. I'm fucking sick of sympathy for the bullies above all other empathy. Israel needs to learn to be a good neighbor.

Brendan

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 21, 2006 12:27 PM

Obviously, there are war crimes being commited all over the world by people who are fucking crazy and that is the thing to focus on, that every day you sit around wondering which flavor of Ben and Jerry ice cream to eat or whether you should tune up your car today or wait til tomorrow or what class you chould take next semester at NYU there are people who arent getting anything to eat at all.
Next time you watch fireworks, heres a neat trick-close your eyes and pretend its gun and mortar fire. Thats how a lot of people live everyday. With that level of noise but also fear. Fucking terrfic way to go about your life, right?
I find it hard to feel the level of irritation, anger even, with an entire people that some people (MB im looking at you) can muster when, ultimately, thats us, isnt it? think about how americans are characterized everyday, all over the world: useless lazy and mean spirited. Greedy. Heartless. I hope thats not me, is it you?
I just feel sad now.

Posted by: kate at August 21, 2006 8:11 PM

America used to be defined by the people. Or at least the people had a more direct power over its culture.

What the Internet is or is becoming, used to be American society -- it was freer. Ze would have been a minstrel on Vaudeville, or a medicine man, or some kind of hustler. Someone free to talk to the rest of us, without watching the producer's face for grimaces. It's hard to get this across, but what I mean is, America used to be full of unique individuals.

In the last thirty years our culture, our media, our institutions, our public spaces...have been bought out. They've been bought out by corporations. By corporations I mean pyramid schemes, with ownership way way up high, with all the rights of a citizen, but none of the responsiblities, and a sociopathic commitment to profit-above-all.

The result is so fucking boring. Only the Internet is interesting, and even that's under threat with the latest committee discussions from Congress Inc that want to steal broadband away from the people.

America is the fat rapist of planet earth, because we've all been so incorporated, we don't give a fuck about eachother anymore. We don't build community anymore. We think like consumers without philosophy or depth. Literally. We are really that vacuous, and more so.

We're part of a highly manipulative cult. A lot of us are snapping out of it. But not enough and not enough in time.

While the zombies chase the latest anxiety cure, our ecosystems fall into ruin, and global society is sickened on American weapons, lifestyle packages and pyramid schemes.

America is creating hell on earth. Meanwhile, the elite chew their prime rib and clink their glasses of Romanée Conti, toasting themselves on their ability to stoke our desire for heart attack crap and plastic junk.

I'm not depressed at all. It's all a game. The rich are winning, sure, but the moves are fascinating. It's like watching serial killers slice apart their victims. Can't help but be enthralled.

The best way to escape this shit is to study great Americans like Sitting Bull, Bob Dylan and George Carlin. Those Americans were free. They were real Americans. To be a real American is to be free. Be free. It's better than anything anything anything.

And, Kate, depression is nothing but selfishness. Fuck that.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 21, 2006 10:57 PM

Sadness and depression are different. A person can feel sad for the death and destruction of beauty but not be depressed. I am sad.
But at least I am capable. Isnt the ability to be enthralled with the moves of the game without involvement just as bad as sitting and sucking your thumb? Either way youre on the sidelines, still being manipulated, still part of the group think.
And gosh, MB, you sound so angry!

Posted by: kate at August 22, 2006 5:24 PM

If you're not angry, you don't really understand what's going on. Sadness and melancholy and depression is defeatist. Mourning what is not (yet) killed, speeds its end. It's also very common.

This common human response, explains why there was only one Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. It explains why Americans suck their thumbs.

Anger is energy, but it's not my only resource. I often laugh at it all. Sometimes I just watch to understand it better. I'm learning to resist. Our cult/culture is strong.

At the very least, I'm inspired by it all. We live in incredibly inspiring times.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 22, 2006 7:36 PM

You guys should do some philosophy courses, specifically the section on argument types. You'd be a lot happier. At least learn that abusing someone isn't actually an argument, it's something you should take a step back for, look at your motives and see if your really achieving something useful. Life's short.
A constructive argument and being proved wrong can be as positive as proving someone else wrong.

btw.. If anyone said that knowingly taking the chance of killing civilians to get any amount of perceived enemy is unreasonable and achieves nothing, I agree.
Would you do it in your own country? No? Then don't do it in someone elses.

When we stop listening to each other then we have a problem.

Posted by: MattyD at August 23, 2006 8:31 AM

Matty your points on civilian casualties are dead on (excuse the pun).

On your other points:
so much psychobabble, to say "play nice"

philosophy is not the same thing as decorum. The wagging therapist's finger is the scourge of Socratic gadfly-ness. The "abuse" you perceived is simply part of an urban patois--it's an ironic friendliness.

you wrote "abusing someone": "you guys should do some philosophy courses" (your implications are condescending, a form of assumptive abuse) In philosophy we call this hypocrisy. I hope you're not offended. Just kinda interesting.

"when we stop listening to each other": ironically you also wrote: "If anyone said": indicating your comments were based on a diliatory reading, and a rash judgment.

but I love you man, you sound like an ethical man of peace, my kind of people

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 23, 2006 10:58 AM

MattyD, I totaly agree. MB: read his point again. you obviously didn't get it.

Posted by: czman at August 23, 2006 11:28 AM

Czman's the guy I called a douche? Or the guy who defended Israeli massacres in Lebanon? Oh right, both. Sorry for hurting your feelings Czman. Now please go back andd read Matty's comments about civilian murder.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 23, 2006 12:08 PM

Uh oh!
I may not be college educated, but I always thought that feelings and opinions couldnt be right or wrong, you know cuz theyre feelings and opinions.
I guess I do need to take some philosophy courses-Ill just knock those out between the three jobs I work and the family I take care of. Thanks for the paternalism, can you show me how to wipe my ass too?
:) Hardy har har.
Was that abusive? Or just funny?
Yes civilian deaths are bad, bad. But thats the cost of war. Period. There will be civilian deaths and to try to think there is way around that is a mistake and naive. Yes it is wrong. All war is wrong, a tool of political wonks across the board. While we find killing people to be morally reprehensible, the folks in charge arent like us and human lives dont mean shit, and yes they would do it in their own country. Trail of tears anyone? Death row? Unmitigated and unrelieved poverty? Pres Bush isnt even sure how many civilian deaths have happened in iraq "30,000? I dunno " Now, admittedly, he has a full plate, but isnt that a figure the President could take the time to learn-its not like a he's a robot and his hard drive just gets full.
Guess what, soldiers dont really want to die either! Thats why they wear armor and run away sometimes.
Are their lives worth less because they are soldiers?

Posted by: kate at August 23, 2006 2:00 PM

MB: niether, actually. I NEVER defended the israeli massaces* in lebannon, and you didn't call me a dochbag either. I did counter your "israel is evil", "israel is the cause of 9/11" and "helping them is serves no american interest" crap. to which your responce was plain ignorant. I can't compeat with your verble diheria, I'm affraid. I simply dont have the time.

and you didn't call me a doche, asshole.

Posted by: czman at August 23, 2006 2:45 PM

Czman,
Then let me do so now. You're a douche. Total misrepresentation of what I said on Israel.

Israel is not evil. That's silly. Israel is a prosperous middle class society, that enjoys massive subsidies from the US--tiny Israel receives the same foreign aid as Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined. Look it up.

According to the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs “for the 1949-1996 time frame, the total of U.S. foreign aid to all of the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined was $62,497,800,000--almost exactly the amount given to tiny Israel.” Those who understand the socio-economic roots of AIDS transmission in Africa should be disgusted by this fact. Total Israeli aid to date now tops $100 billion.

Our deficit is $260 billion this year. Israel has a $2 billion surplus. I'm merely pointing out that the $4 billiion we give them each year is a waste. A waste because Israel is an atrocious violator of human rights. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International reports on Israel are easily availabe on-line. Israel is the new South Africa. Ask Nelson Mandela.

Such abuses cause nothing but bad will for the US, because we provide Israel with the funds and guns to be the bullies they are in the Middle East.

9/11 misrep too. Israel had nothing to do with the WTC. That's stupid. It is true that a ring of Israeli spies were deported/not-jailed in November 2001. Many question what these spies knew about the attacks. Did they warn the CIA? Obviously, I don't know. I'm guessing they did not know. But the spying is a violation of our alliance.

Also, two top Israel lobby execs were indicted last week for spying on the Pentagon, and passing military secrets to the Israeli government. That's some serious shit. And certainly does not serve American interests. Look that up too:

New York Times, 3/5/06: Pro-Israel Lobbying Group Roiled by Prosecution of Two Ex-Officials.

Cazman, I don't really think you're a douche. I'm sure you're really nice. Sorry for any offense. Just trying to get at some truth.

Kate, of course opinions can be wrong. Many people hold feelings about things based on lies, false information and prejudice. As to your education: not having a degree is freedom. Most grads are indoctrinated, not educated. Self-taught thinkers often think best.

If their dead don't count, then our dead don't count. We've evolved from this caveman shit. Undoing the Helsinki Accords on Human Rights, the UN Charter and the Geneva Conventions is not evoution. Don't fall into that ethical relativism nonsense. Call murder murder. And demand of your government civilized behavior. If war is necessary, let the debate be honest, let the information be true.

You too Czman. If you don't defend Israeli massacres, then condemn them. Go ahead. I dare you to be upstanding.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 23, 2006 3:56 PM

My opinion, MB, is that you arent digesting everything youre reading. Wrong? Maybe. But not to me because its mine.
The reason thats my opinion is that what i was trying to say, for clarification, is that our politicians do apply moral relativism to human lives lost, unlike what we as citizens typically, but not always do (rape victims who "deserve it" and poor people who "like" to be homeless are examples of the ways we as society justify causing pain or maintaining the status quo to our advantage for the short term). Yes they should be held accountable. How? Clearly my votes arent counting?
What do you propose to do then?
As for the freedom not having a degree brings, sure. Its very free not having money for things like vacations or food. Those are crazy luxuries that white collar workers get for shits and giggles. I guess I should really be sorry I dont have the freedom of being homeless too! Sorry for the sarcasm, but it seems a little like a pat on the head "self educated thinkers think best" Right. Thats why they live so well, with all the great insurance and therapy etc! A degree still has value, even as far from the grid as I try to get.
Asshat!
As long as were still name calling :)

Posted by: kate at August 23, 2006 9:11 PM

http://www.rpi.edu/~heuveb/teaching/M&M/Presentations/Arguments.ppt

A quick link on arguing. You don't need to be super intelligent to read it, or understand it.
I never suggested you would.

For MB:
> "when we stop listening to each other": ironically
> you also wrote: "If anyone said": indicating your
> comments were based on a diliatory reading,
> and a rash judgment.

I read 2/3rds of it and skimmed the last third because it had too much abuse in it. This is why I posted the comment, I was generally interested in the points of view, but the tone began to make it unreadable. I honestly wouldn't expect anyone to listen to abuse for an extended length of time, that would be stretching the statement a bit.

Having said that, there is some interesting links etc posted here that I am enjoying, keep it up.

Posted by: MattyD at August 24, 2006 6:30 AM

as for the US aid to Israel, it should be noted that all of it is used for buying US good (mostly arms and milletary related obviously) - the money goes back to the US economy. ALL of it.

As for US interests, in my original post I wrote that some major US corporations have R&D faclities in Israel. your reply was that they were millitary facilities - you are wrong. AFAIK no american millitary co's have r&d in israel.
I was refaring to companies such as intel (the centrino and core chips were designed in israel), motorola, ibm, sundisk, applied material, national semiconductor, and many, many other US companies who have israeli based R&D facilities. That's without mentuning israeli based companies like checkpoint software, mirabilis (IE ICQ which was bought by AOL, who.. have kept the ICQ branch and have an r&d facility here), m systems, etc.. all these companies bring revenues of billions of dollars into the US economy.

as for "israeli spy rings jailed in the days following 9/11" - AFAIK the US was extreemly paranoid at the time and jailed people who's visa's had run out. some of those were israeli. please back up your accusation with real information. please give links. I'm not aware of such things.

"You too Czman. If you don't defend Israeli massacres, then condemn them. Go ahead. I dare you to be upstanding."

obviously I detest the loss of innocent life, as much as anyone. And I'll go even further - I was against the israeli operation in lebannon

But I do think it was within israel's right to attack lebannon as the result of the lax rule of law in southern lebannon which allowed an aremed millitia to form and attack israel without provocation. a millitia which is, BTW, a brance of a political party in the lebannonise govrement, mind you.

as for israel being in violation of human rights - I have to agree that the situation is really crappy. I am against the settelments, as well as the ocupation of the west bank. but As the situation stands now, Israel has no real options there. pullingout of gaza (and uprooting the few thousend israelis that settled there over the last 40 years) has not helped anyone. not the israelis, who now suffer daily rocket attacks from gaza, nor the palestinians - who are under a siege far worse then before the pullout. Also Israel's pullout of lebannon in 2000 has apeased no one, as the last confrentation in lebannon clearly demonstrated.

I've said before: the situation in israel and the middle east is much more complicated then you can possibly imagine.

Posted by: czman at August 24, 2006 4:04 PM

"Dom,

Jon Stewart said it best: Israel go back to its UN borders. Pay reparations to Palestinians so they can set up a viable state (with access to water). Make Jerusalem an international city."

When Israel withdrew from Gaza the attacks worsened, Israel has already repatriated about a million Arabs, most who accepted repatriation in 1948 and some 200,000 more recently. Very few of the remainder are due a thing. I agree anyway, that a future peace depends on creating trust - but it also flatly depends on the renunciation of calls to destroy Israel. Seems it is just you who thinks that is some kind of whiny excuse when you write, "heal that gaping wound first ... Drop the poor Israel schtick. I'm fucking sick of sympathy for the bullies above all other empathy. Israel needs to learn to be a good neighbor."

Israel is a good neighbour. Ask Jordan, for whom peace with Israel has brought additional security - the two countries have a complex military and intelligence relationship - tourism and economy benefits. The countries that call for death to Israel make for pretty bad neighbours. You clearly hate America, but I can't see why Israel falls into the same boat. Israel has a fight on its hands whether you like it or not. I am astounded at denial of this, and at the tacit support for Israel's enemies. Whatismore if you are basing this on the news from Lebanon you are just being another angry sucker. I recognise that you are playing that game where enough antipathy to Israel is like support for world peace, but that is a bullshit game and not the one the Arabs are playing.

Posted by: Dom at August 26, 2006 5:41 AM

I'm bowing out. Not my living room. I've said a lot already.

Check out this great Jewish hipster play that pretty much says what I was trying to get across, but much better.

It's called An Olive on the Seder Plate.
http://www.libertycabbage.org/

Hating the Israeli government's war crimes, and our own, is based in love for people.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at August 26, 2006 1:01 PM

Yay i love modern antisemitism ::dance around joyfully, throw out flowers of totally not understanding the history of modern israel tulips!:: that is all.

shalom.
(ah crap, he's jewish, can't be trusted)

Posted by: Keith at August 28, 2006 10:53 PM

Haha, modern anti-semitism, eh?

Ever stop to think tht Arabs are semites too?

Let's all just get along :(.

Salaam.

Posted by: Arij Mikati at September 4, 2006 9:23 PM

Arij,

Regardless of any other points about hatred of Arabs, that point about Arabs being semites is always really idiotic. Keith is referring to hatred of Jews.

Posted by: Dom at September 7, 2006 8:14 AM

My answer to this question is always: jealousy.
The question being:
why "hatred" of the Jews?

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at September 7, 2006 3:51 PM

manhatten: check out this video. that should answer your question.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V-trMOYNhlo

specificly, check out what she says at 2:15 - 3:00 and 4:00 on to the end. powerfull stuff.

Posted by: czman at September 7, 2006 5:45 PM

Her rhetoric is familiar.

Essentially she reinforces a set of opposites.
One one side: Jewish scientific civilized
On the other: Muslim medieval barbaric

This the Thomas Friedman school of thought.

Couple of problems: first, Muslim capacity for civilization has been proven. The vaccum exploited by the British after the fall of the Ottoman Empire is the beginning of Muslim enslavement.

You have to understand Muslim backwardness as a result of Western propping up dictators in the region, who steal oil money, and refuse to reinvest in the people.

Two, the Islamic extremists are essentially using the rallying power of Islam to bolster the people to overthrow, not only USA, but the USA-proxies: Israel AND the Muslim dictators.

Their seeking power in religion to achieve this essentially nationalistic revolutionary goal to gain the natural resources of the Middle East for the peoples' use.

This is exactly what Zionism did. Zionist had their suicide bombers too.

Religion is a big aspect Israeli war planning. It also explains why Israel is guilty of human rights violations and war crimes that outpace the barbaric Muslim terrorists.

Muslims are well able for science and civilization. USA-backed dictators deprive Middle Eastern societies the advances made by Muslim Americans, Turks and Indian Muslims.

I don't fall for that racist rant that pits Jews (good) and Muslims (bad) against one another. That's just monkey business: demonization without sensitivity to historical political contexts.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at September 7, 2006 6:53 PM

"I don't fall for that racist rant that pits Jews (good) and Muslims (bad) against one another"

nither do I, btw. But you should know who was the person you watched, before accusing Wafa Sultan of being racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan

The argument is not racist at all. This about culture, not race. using the term "racist" here is a semantic trick - smoke and mirrors. I'll go even further, the problem lies not with Muslim, but with extreem relgious musilims and I'll even agree that extreem religious jews, specificly the zionist religious jews are a problem too, if they ever come to power in israel.


"This is exactly what Zionism did. Zionist had their suicide bombers too."

really? when? I'm not aware of any suicide bombing ever commited by a zionist. there have been cases of barbaric murder made by zionist terrorists, But not suicide bombings (and those acts of barbarism are few, and far between)

"first, Muslim capacity for civilization has been proven. The vaccum exploited by the British after the fall of the Ottoman Empire is the beginning of Muslim enslavement."

I agree with you there. definetly. but what happned 100 years ago is not something we are dealing with now. We have to deal with whats in front of us. I agree (and I've agreed with you before) that some of the american strategies in the mid-east were pretty bad, for everyone. for example Iraq - I still don't fully understand what was the point for the extended millitary action there. Iraq was not a threat to the US (or israel, actualy) after 1991. so WTF? (other then the obvious oil issues).

"Religion is a big aspect Israeli war planning. It also explains why Israel is guilty of human rights violations and war crimes that outpace the barbaric Muslim terrorists."

Logical falicies galore..

Religion is not an aspect of israeli war planning, self preservation is. And even if it was.. it doesn't explain israels human rights violations (which exist, mind you), years of barbaric acts of violence tward civilian population by muslim terrorists have a bigger part on the blame, IMHO. as for "outpace the barbaric Muslim terrorists". haha. good one.

Posted by: czman at September 8, 2006 6:14 AM

There are many examples of sick-o behavior on both sides.

The Israeli army has been well-fed by the USA, so it doesn't need to suicide bomb anymore, that tactic was given up long ago and replaced with air-assaults on cchildren. (cf Qana massacres of 1997 and 2006, etc)

It has been a while since Jews suicide bombed, but there are lots of examples of Jewish terrorism. February 25, 1994 Baruch Goldstein was on a suicide mission, and killed 29 Muslim worshippers and wounded 125 in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank. No different from a suicide bomber in Tel Aviv.

The most famous act of Jewish terrorism was a suicide bombing: The King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) -- members of Irgun — a terrorist Zionist organization--dressed as Arabs, exploded a bomb at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

91 people were killed, most of them staff of the secretariat and the hotel[1]: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured.

Palestinians are no different from Jews. They have a cosmopolitan culture, that was rooted in Jerusalem until Jewish terrorists came in and forced them to live like animals in tents.

Jewish terrorism is alive and well. That's why Amnesty International and Human Rights watch has condemned it for war crimes (state level terrorism).

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at September 8, 2006 1:16 PM

Czman:
"Religion is not an aspect of israeli war planning, self preservation is. And even if it was.. it doesn't explain israels human rights violations (which exist, mind you),"

Finally, an admission of Israeli war crimes. So who do we try? Nuremberg is very clear. Mosad was very clear. War crimes mean war criminals. I want those Israeli war criminals tried. And I want Israel to pay reparations for the property it stole. And for the innocent lives is ended.

Religion is all over that thing. Israel is a fiction. The Jewish claim to Israel is based on a Contract with Yahweh. It's based on a literalist/historical reading of the Bible. It's based in a romantic sense of self-importance on the part of Jews that can see their stealing Arab lands is good, but the stealing of Jewish property by the Swiss is an abomination.

Religion is all over that conflict. Religion in the form of a Bible written by political propagandists. Religion in the form of a Contract with God that provides for the slaughter of outsiders interfering with it. Etc.

Czman wrote:
years of barbaric acts of violence tward civilian population by muslim terrorists have a bigger part on the blame, IMHO. as for "outpace the barbaric Muslim terrorists". haha. good one.

No it's not a joke. If the Palestinian-Israeli conflict were a football match: Israel has killed far more many children and women and innocents than have the Palestinian liberation fighters and sicko terrorists.

I'm simply calling for a non-hypocritical look at Israel and by extension, the United States. We are not the good guys and them the bad guys. It's much more complicated than that.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at September 8, 2006 2:30 PM

I sort of knew you would mentune Golstien and the Irgun.. I mean.. those are the only examples that are anywhere close to "israeli suicide bombers" that actually exist.. two isolated examples in 60 years of history.. Well done! these were not the only cases BTW, there a few more. less deadly actions, but those are rare. They don't happen that much becoase ISRAEL DOES NOT EDUCATE THIER CHILDREN TO BROW UP TO BECOME TERRORISTS. get it?

Goldsteins act was an isolated incident, one man, in 1995, he had no organization funding him and no logistics - it is NOT the same as a terrorist organization which has to have logistical planing and excecution for getting a suicide bomber into the heart of tel-aviv, or jerusalem. not the same from a logistical planing POV though I agree THAT WAS a barbaric act .

The irgun, is another matter. This was an organization who acted in order to get the british out of plalestine, how ever.. the king david hotel was the civil headquarters of the british mandate- it was a logistical target. the irgun did NOT blindly target civilian targets , the way the palestinan terrorists do (a bus, a caffe, etc') and your wrong... it was'nt a suicide operation (the explosives were smuggled into the building and exploded using a timer) . BTW, the jewish leadership in israel did this to the Irgun:

"Following the assassination of Lord Moyne by Lehi, the Yishuv and Jewish Agency initiated "The Hunting Season" on Irgun and the Lehi group, facilitating the arrest of some 1000 members of those organizations who were interned in British camps. The British deported 251 of them to camps in Africa." (wikipedia)

later, the Irgun was dissolved and it's personel were scattered in the new formed Israeli army.

Do you see something like this happening in the palestinian authority? or lebannon? the govrement actually fighting it's local millitias? Still think this is similar?

"Religion is all over that thing. Israel is a fiction."

Israel is most definetly NOT fiction. And religion is irrelevant. The jews in israel, were, for the most part BORN IN ISRAEL. what happened 50 years ago is almost irrelevant now. As for the Fictional Ethos of nations... Well this is true of ANY country and culture. The US, IRAN, the palestinians, Lebanon, Syria, England.. all are "based in a romantic sense of self-importance on the part of ...." fill in the blank.

"If the Palestinian-Israeli conflict were a football match: Israel has killed far more many children and women and innocents than have the Palestinian liberation fighters and sicko terrorists."

but it's NOT a football match. when you are attacked by your surrounding countries what do you expect israels responce to be? Hizzbullah (which you might well compare to the Irgun of the 40s) is NOT BEING DELT WITH BY THE LEBANNONIES govrement. Who should be held accountable then? those who protect themselves or those that harbur the terrorists?

"Finally, an admission of Israeli war crimes. "

your pretty good at demagogary. take one thing I say, and totaly missreprisent it. you should be in politics.

Posted by: czman at September 10, 2006 1:00 PM

Israel is a fiction. All countries are fictions. It just happens that Israel's is based on the Bible, one of the greatest compendium of lies ever told. God did NOT whisper to anyone named Moses anything about Jews being chosen or Jews being promised land.

As to Jewish terroristic acts...

As I said previously, Zionist terrorism graduated. Once Israel was founded, and started lapping up billions of free US tax money to buy airplanes, Zionists stopped strapping bombs to themselves to blow up the king david hotel, and got lots of practice bombing little kids from the sky.

You may not call that terrorism Czman, but Amnesty International does. AI etc

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at September 11, 2006 7:24 PM

ManhattanBrendan,

Countries are not fictions. They do exist. You may consider borders arbitrary, but none of the parties to a running conflict can do without them. The dissolution of borders is not the end of conflict. The dissolution of borders is not what brings peace. Dissolution of borders in Germany in a time of peace, as well as being a powerful symbol of peace, allowed for freedom, cooperation and reintegration not possible in a time of war. Proposing that a dissolution of borders would bring peace reflects an idealistic agenda that bends truth to fit. Sometimes that agenda is hardline communist or anarchist or anti-capitalist or anti-Israel and sometimes is is noble idealism bending to scrape the bottom of the zeitgeist. You have done that, appearing to understand only the most villifying tropes about Israel and purporting to understand big politics in the name of 'waking people up'. czman has convincingly challenged a couple of your factual statements and graciously acknowledged your sentiments for peace. I do not think that your simplifications and underhand smears are making up for your lack of proper research and disrespect for accuracy. If you smear czman, who is being rigorous and straight and talking responsibly, as another warmongering partisan, I think you just wallpaper your rose tinted glasses.

Posted by: Dom at September 11, 2006 9:02 PM

you are saying two things in your first paragraph. one of them is a missunderstanding (or an outright lie) the other one I agree with..

"God did NOT whisper to anyone named Moses anything about Jews being chosen or Jews being promised land."

I totaly agree with this. I'm an athiest myself. Absolutly right. Really.

It's the first part of the paragraph I have a problem with..

"Israel is a fiction. All countries are fictions. It just happens that Israel's is based on the Bible, one of the greatest compendium of lies ever told."

Nope. Israel is not based on the Bible. Israel is based on history. You simply don't understand what zionism is. here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

religion plays a part, obviouslt but the thing is The thing is, that history, plays a bigger role. Some secular jews have realised at arround the 19th century that they are not not just a religion, but that the world arround them views them as a race, whether they like it or not. since jews were always present in palestine (in jerusalem, in zfat, and other places) and historicly that's the place this people came from , that's the place they should came back to. This is zionism - self determination of the jewish people as a nation.
it HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH JEHOVA. you should learn who Hertzel and the early zionists actually were. The were not religious. To this day The govrement of israel, in it's majority, is not religious.

"As I said previously, Zionist terrorism graduated. Once Israel was founded, and started lapping up billions of free US tax money to buy airplanes, Zionists stopped strapping bombs to themselves to blow up the king david hotel, and got lots of practice bombing little kids from the sky."

Sigh. I thought we've been over this before:

1 - King david was not a suicide bombing. (reread my previous reply). At least pretend to read what I write.

2 - "bombing little kids from the sky" Israel protects it self, from adversaries who attack Israeli civilians from within civilian areas. in war innocent people get hurt, killed, suffer, etc' perticulary when the people who do the fighting like to hide behind the population.

"bombing little kids from the sky"- these are serious alligations which imply INTENT. I urge you to prove there was intent. (good luck with that, btw, there wasn't any).

3 - "You may not call that terrorism Czman, but Amnesty International does. AI etc"

Just what are you rafering to regarding Amnesty? I seriously doubt that "israeli bombing kids from the sky" has ever apeared in an amnesty report about israel.


Posted by: czman at September 11, 2006 10:19 PM

and Dom, thanks. It's nice to be appriciated, arguing with MB has a kind of grinding effect. grinding water, that is.

Posted by: czman at September 11, 2006 10:39 PM

state Israeli war crimes

= (and kills more kids than)

Palestinian liberation terrorism

(Amnesty International & Human Rights Watch & Czman agree, Israel engages in war crimes)

The nice thing, is that a majority of Americans (save the zealot christian right, and some nostalgic Jewish Americans) are beginning to understand this. I am guessing Zionist hegemony within the United States will wane, as people are sick and bored with the lawyer talk used to defend massacres.

Someone above said Zionism is "historical" not "religious."
That person is ridiculous. And not jsut because Israel itself has replaced Yahweh the contract-maker. The old religion remains firmly in the state's imagination.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at September 12, 2006 6:23 PM

"Someone above said Zionism is "historical" not "religious."
That person is ridiculous"

that person was me..

I'm not the ridiculous demagog in this disscussion, MB. You are clearly entrenched in your own warped missunderstanding and ignorance. I've tried to point you to real information which you clearly did not bother to read. review the disscussion - it least try to understand the perspective of the people you are dehuminizing.

"And not jsut because Israel itself has replaced Yahweh the contract-maker. The old religion remains firmly in the state's imagination."

WTF does that suppose to mean? "states imagination"? what is that? can you explain? it makes no sense. "Yuhweh the contract maker"?! WTF are you talking about?. LEARN THE SUBJECT MATTER. you are spuing garbage. tell me, am I trully wasting my time in this here disscusion? I simply can't understad how can someone be so obtuse.

I trully tried to engage in a real disscussion here, but I feel this is going nowhere.

Posted by: czman at September 12, 2006 8:36 PM

To remind you: Our discussion pits Israeli violence against Arab violence.

You said two things about Israeli violence: 1) it's war crimes 2) it's ok.

Menachim Begin, the founding terrorist of Israel said:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

Source:

one source: May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

Ariel Sharon has come choice words too.

Zionism is no less ugly than Palestinian attempts to convince Zionist bullies to take their American combat boots off.

I'm perfectly happy to end this discussion. It's obvious you're intent on arguing pro-war-crime. I find that uncivilized.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at September 12, 2006 8:46 PM

"I'm perfectly happy to end this discussion. It's obvious you're intent on arguing pro-war-crime. I find that uncivilized. "

I have a problem with people who call zionists: war criminals (as if all zionists are war criminals). who talk of "the jews" do this, and "the zionists" do that. as if everything that is done by zionists have a clear agenda (to rob america, and kill arabs, and control the world and kill babies).

you are using clear demagogic tactics in this disscusion

1 claming I'm pro-war-crimes, for example.
2 using sniplets of historcal events which you distort (king david, for example) to match your agenda.
3 inflamatory language (calling me names, saying isral "kills babies from the skys" - as if that is a israeli objective)


and last, but not least:

YOU NEVER UNSWER MY QUESTIONS. it's trully a one way disscussion. you attack and speu CRAP arguments - I retort trying to make you explain your crap. which you never do. you just spue new crap, that is not related to the old crap. I'd like you to answer the questions I ask.

that's what I mean by a waste of time.


Someone above said Zionism is "historical" not "religious."
That person is ridiculous"

that person was me..

I'm not the ridiculous demagog in this disscussion, MB. You are clearly entrenched in your own warped missunderstanding and ignorance. I've tried to point you to real information which you clearly did not bother to read. review the disscussion - it least try to understand the perspective of the people you are dehuminizing.

"And not jsut because Israel itself has replaced Yahweh the contract-maker. The old religion remains firmly in the state's imagination."

WTF does that suppose to mean? "states imagination"? what is that? can you explain? it makes no sense. "Yuhweh the contract maker"?! WTF are you talking about?. LEARN THE SUBJECT MATTER. you are spuing garbage. tell me, am I trully wasting my time in this here disscusion?

Posted by: czman at September 12, 2006 9:27 PM

The Yahweh contract is a reference to the covenant. Clearly, the basis to the claim for Israel/Judah is based on Isaiah's early and Jeremiah's later fiction about Moses' contract with Yahweh.

On that ridiculous claim, the state of Israel is founded. The state's imagination is bound up with the Torah. If you study the history of the writing of the Torah, you discover its political propagandistic value both to king Josiah and to Ariel Sharon.

The subsequent (subsequent to Jeremiah in 621bc) history of Israel and Judah is the history of how a small kingdom built a Temple, wrote up theocratic laws and then fell apart with invasions. Judah was ended in 73, when Masada fell.

Jewish history in that region becomes a footnote to the many peoples who went on to build the Jerusalem familiar to the British in 1917. Jewish history, on the other hand, becomes an exciting multi-cultural, cross-global history.

Zionists in Europe, did not originally claim ownership of what had been known as Palestine, since the days of Herodotus, at least. Because they had no claim.

IF EVERY SMALL KINGDOM FROM THE ANCIENT WORLD WAS GIVEN RIGHTS TO FORMER TERRITORIES, I WOULD BE TYPING IN LENAPE.

The only claim to Israel was made on the basis of the bible, and its "history." The 30,000 Jewish inhabitants of Palestine were not Zionist, and had excellent relations with the majority of the native population of Arabs.

It was the European implants that started trouble, pushed Arabs off the land and stole it.

The UN set borders. Israel then pushed into foreign territory, and continues to occupy it brutally. That's what all the Amnesty International condemnations are about. That's why you have terrorism--to force the Israelis out of lands reserved for the other state in the two state solution.

Posted by: ManhattanBrendan@gmail.com at September 13, 2006 6:10 PM


"The 30,000 Jewish inhabitants of Palestine were not Zionist"

True. nither did jews in europe or anywhere else... ZIONISM DIDN'T EXIST untill the end of the 19th century.

"Zionists in Europe, did not originally claim ownership of what had been known as Palestine, since the days of Herodotus, at least. Because they had no claim."

You mean "jews", not "zionists". the fact you are confusing the two things is an indication of your views, I think. (that and the "fuck israel" comment earlier) - if you had a respect to jews - you wouldn't have made that mistake.

your confusing theology with nationalty - assuming that they are one and the same. they are not.

"On that ridiculous claim, the state of Israel is founded"

rediculous claim.. perhaps. BUT - It doesn't really matter NOW. fact is Israel exists, much in the same way any other nation exists. what was it's history, reasons of forming, isn't relevant to what is happening now.

"Jewish history, on the other hand, becomes an exciting multi-cultural, cross-global history."

haha. funny.. this is true, but you seem to be forgetting a few small things a bout that history..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anti-Semitism

"That's why you have terrorism--to force the Israelis out of lands reserved for the other state in the two state solution. "

oh really? you really think the two land solution is excepted by the palestinian terrorists? well.. if you do then you probably don't know jack shit about hamas (70% of the seats in the palestinian parlament) which has NEVER agreed to the two state solution.

and of corse.. what terrorism groups are you speaking of here? palestinian (PLO, hamas)? Al-quaida? muslim borthers? hizbullah?

Al quaida, for example, has very little to do with israel at all.

Posted by: czman at September 18, 2006 9:20 AM

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