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malina 09-14-2003 08:28 PM

i don't think nationality matters in any country

catbelly 09-15-2003 10:20 PM

I must laugh at myself... I was reading the posts re: nationality above, and I had a crazy moment where I thought to myself, "holy smack, I don't understand what people are saying.... what is going on.... is it possible that I don't know what 'nationality' means even though I use the word all the time??"

Ha.

So I finally figured out (I think?) that you guys are using nationality = race or ethnicity... is that right?

I use nationality = nation you are from, nation being the country.

That's really interesting.

catbelly 09-15-2003 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nycwriters
Actually the political phenomena in Canada has been that you're your nationality first, Canadian second. It's been studied by sociologists for years.

Whereas across the border, you are most definately American first, your nationality second ...

Sorry chica, didn't read immigration into your post.

So yes if you put it in that context, you certainly make sense. :)

So malina, you were also talking about immigrants? Being proud of their home nation?

malina 09-16-2003 12:00 AM

i don't understand the concept of being proud of any nation, whether birth nationality or as an immigrant.

it's like being proud to be blond or blue eyed or tall or short. there is no merit in living in one country or another ( that's the way i feel ). i can only be proud of something that took an effort on my part. pride is something that needs to be earned.

catbelly 09-16-2003 12:19 AM

EEEeeeee I have all sorts of undeserved pride in that case!!

Maybe it's a "shade" of pride... it's not by any greatness of my own that my mom and dad are great, but I am proud anyway... my brother is super, also very proud of him... my Jamaican heritage is something I feel happy and good about, though I don't take credit for the cool things about Jamaica of course .... maybe you wouldn't call that pride?

What do you call those feelings, if you have them? If not pride, then something else?

Just as a fer instance, if you believe really strongly that voting makes a difference and you vote for someone that ends up elected, and they do a bunch of great things that you also believe in... didn't you help that happen? And, say you live in Canada where those good things happened, aren't you helping to build a country that you are proud of? And aren't you justified in that case in being proud, because the state of your country is partly due to your efforts?

*sigh* I realize that probably sounds super corny. But, on a micro scale - taking the whole voting thing out of it - I think that living a life that you're proud of and living in a place that matches your ideals is sort of the same thing ... it's like your personal values reinforce the country's national values, and I think that's good enough reason to be proud of where you choose to live (whether you were born there or not).

catbelly 09-16-2003 01:09 AM

You may be interested in some thoughts from this book about my life:http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...1.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

azur 09-16-2003 08:09 AM

Quote:

malina wrote:
i don't understand the concept of being proud of any nation, whether birth nationality or as an immigrant.
It's like defending your lifestyle and your culture. If we were not proud of them there would exist one, global village. Kind of gigantic Mac Donalds.
Diversity is precious.

chuckie egg 09-16-2003 08:21 AM

Exactly, there nothing wrong with being proud.

malina 09-16-2003 09:23 AM

i didn't say there was anything wrong with being proud

Miss Malevolent 09-16-2003 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malina
i don't understand the concept of being proud of any nation, whether birth nationality or as an immigrant.

it's like being proud to be blond or blue eyed or tall or short. there is no merit in living in one country or another ( that's the way i feel ). i can only be proud of something that took an effort on my part. pride is something that needs to be earned.

It's like being proud of the accomplishments of the people that came before you being proud of your heritage.

Using your, "blond or blue eyed" analogy. It's like being proud to be African-American cause of MLK Jr. or Harriet Tubman...the proud black people that came before you.

At least that's how I define being proud to be American.

malina 09-16-2003 11:40 AM

i have reservations about taking credit ( feeling pride ) for someone else's work.

maybe it's a matter of definition. i can understand feeling pride for someone. what catbelly said before about being proud of your kids, your siblings, etc. makes sense.

but can i only be proud of the *white* people that came before me because *i* am white?

dickieC 09-16-2003 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chuckie egg
Exactly, there nothing wrong with being proud.
Chuckie: It's a deadly Sin!!!!!!

catbelly 09-16-2003 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by malina
i have reservations about taking credit ( feeling pride ) for someone else's work.

maybe it's a matter of definition. i can understand feeling pride for someone. what catbelly said before about being proud of your kids, your siblings, etc. makes sense.

but can i only be proud of the *white* people that came before me because *i* am white?

Malina, so you will never be the dinkish co-worker who takes credit for other people's stuff?? How will you ever get ahead??? I am sooo kidding of course. I totally agree. Taking credit and being proud are separated in my head, though, so I can do one and not the other.

I think being proud of colour is a bit odd, unless colour represents something to you - like culture, or your heritage, family, etc. Colour can also bind you to a heritage, if that makes sense. Make you feel an affinity, maybe that's a better way to put it.

ETA, I didn't really address what you said, sorry ... I think that if you *only* identify with white people, then sure, maybe you would *only* be proud of them. I think that would be sad, though, and I doubt you feel that way. Why did you phrase it that way, Malina? Sorry if I'm being dense but I don't get it.

LOL about the deadly sin, dickie ;) I just ate a huge sandwich and two containers of coleslaw... looks like I've got two sins to deal with at the moment! What if I'm slothful because of my gluttony.... three!! Doh. And it's only lunchtime.

malina 09-16-2003 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by catbelly
ETA, I didn't really address what you said, sorry ... I think that if you *only* identify with white people, then sure, maybe you would *only* be proud of them. I think that would be sad, though, and I doubt you feel that way. Why did you phrase it that way, Malina? Sorry if I'm being dense but I don't get it.

i was replying to what miss m. had said because i don't get it either ;) ... you're very far from being dense, dear cat!

Quote:

Originally posted by Miss Malevolent

Using your, "blond or blue eyed" analogy. It's like being proud to be African-American cause of MLK Jr. or Harriet Tubman...the proud black people that came before you.

At least that's how I define being proud to be American.


catbelly 09-16-2003 04:46 PM

re: density - never say never :)
 
I see Malina - but I also see what miz mal said, because MLK and Harriet Tubman were enormous contributors to culture - American culture, but also black culture. It's not just that they were black - it's that they were outstanding human beings who were black and advocated human rights for all people, but, due to their own characteristics, made the most impact in black culture because they were not only leaders they were role models. It may be hard to fathom now (or, I hope it is!), but in the past the race lines were so much more clearly delineated that having a role model of a different race was ... well, sometimes unfathomable.

I don't know what term everyone is comfy with, so I really am sorry if "black culture" is not the right one.... words are important, I respect that.

Anyway - maybe it seems weird to race-identify in terms of being proud, but I think in this case it's different because it is IMO all tied up with culture - "black" is not just a colour.

ETA, I think ideas of cultural/racial pride are also tied up in self-worth and social acceptance. In the case of race, non-white people in America have not normally been accepted right away (not just by white Americans, by whoever is already there). So, to be proud of one's culture/ethnicity is a very positive thing, IMO - many years / generations have been spent not feeling accepted and, outside of the family home, not proud.


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