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Old 02-10-2006, 08:39 PM   #196
Hyakujo's Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynn
Credibility. It's a mysterious, elusive thing. I tend to trust my own experiences, most of all - I think most people do that on a gut level anyway.

The fact is, there is no intellectual argument, no "scientific" study, no amount of ridicule or peer contempt that can convince someone who has had a number of intensely spiritual experiences that they did not actually have those experiences.
I would say it's certainly wrong, from a scientific point of view, to think that religious or spiritual experiences should just be dismissed. Even if you were unshakeable atheist, and disagreed with any religious interpretation of these experiences, they are still being experienced and still there to explain. You can't conclude romantic love doesn't exist just because there's no Cupid.

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Originally Posted by Brynn
To be told that they don't have a "normal, inquisitive mind" and that these experiences were scientifically impossible is akin to being told that the world is indeed flat because that is all that's observable to the people who didn't care to take the trip around.
The question might not be about the experience, but the explanation or interpretation of the experience. For the believer there's an obvious explanation, but for the non-believer that explanation is incompatible with their view of the wider world.

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Originally Posted by Brynn
If you don't want a religious experience, you won't get one.
Not so sure about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynn
I'm not a perfect person, I'm in recovery from a lot of things - but I assure you, I'm way more unpleasant to be around without Him - especially when I'm in denial about those faults of mine. He keeps the light shining on those dark places, and as a result I scrutinize them more than I might otherwise.

Whether I actually surrender or not to His healing is an agonizing lifelong process of letting go.
This is perhaps, the biggest baby in the religious bathwater. But I'm not sure that it couldn't be secularized. Certainly many Western Buddhist books deal with a similar process of dealing with your own inner junk and they're pretty secular.
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Old 02-11-2006, 12:22 AM   #197
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^ I'm sure this is true. The fact that I exhausted all secular means available to me, then explored Buddhism and rejected it as the right approach for my own particular set of problems does not mean that these approaches are not right for other people. They weren't right for me, that's all.

I'm more in the Brian McLaren/postmodernist camp. As a Social Justice Christian, I believe that not only is it nobody's damn business who's going to heaven and who's going to hell, but that all religions could quite possibly be "placeholders" for the ultimate truth of God - which Christians happen to ascribe to Jesus, and other religions ascribe to other leaders. I don't expect all Social Justice Christians to embrace that idea either. I can only trust that I was made the way I am for a reason, and am meant to view the world through my particular prisms, as everyone is.

As far as I can tell, everybody is walking along their own road in this life the best they possibly can. If the best they can possibly do isn't very nice or very agreeable or is downright hostile or even murderous, well - apparently that's the best they can do - and I include myself in that. I'm just doing the best I can to respond to it rather than react to it, if that makes any sense, and to try not to cause pain. But if I fail at that, I have resources to go to to help me clean the psychic slate and start over. That's invaluable to me.

Oh, and thanks for that link, Hfox - that's a great site!
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Old 02-17-2006, 10:54 PM   #198
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Bono's 2006 National Prayer Breakfast Remarks

(Sorry, it's long, so it's in parts)

If you're wondering what I'm doing here, at a prayer breakfast, well, so am I. I'm certainly not here as a man of the cloth, unless that cloth is leather. It's certainly not because I'm a rock star. Which leaves one possible explanation: I'm here because I've got a messianic complex.
Yes, it's true. And for anyone who knows me, it's hardly a revelation.
Well, I'm the first to admit that there's something unnatural...something unseemly...about rock stars mounting the pulpit and preaching at presidents, and then disappearing to their villas in the south of France. Talk about a fish out of water. It was weird enough when Jesse Helms showed up at a U2 concert...but this is really weird, isn't it?
You know, one of the things I love about this country is its separation of church and state. Although I have to say: in inviting me here, both church and state have been separated from something else completely: their mind.
Mr. President, are you sure about this?
It's very humbling and I will try to keep my homily brief. But be warned - I'm Irish.
I'd like to talk about the laws of man, here in this city where those laws are written. And I'd like to talk about higher laws. It would be great to assume that the one serves the other; that the laws of man serve these higher laws...but of course, they don't always. And I presume that, in a sense, is why you're here.
I presume the reason for this gathering is that all of us here - Muslims, Jews, Christians - all are searching our souls for how to better serve our family, our community, our nation, our God.
I know I am. Searching, I mean. And that, I suppose, is what led me here, too.
Yes, it's odd, having a rock star here - but maybe it's odder for me than for you. You see, I avoided religious people most of my life. Maybe it had something to do with having a father who was Protestant and a mother who was Catholic in a country where the line between the two was, quite literally, a battle line. Where the line between church and state was...well, a little blurry, and hard to see.
I remember how my mother would bring us to chapel on Sundays ... and my father used to wait outside. One of the things that I picked up from my father and my mother was the sense that religion often gets in the way of God.
For me, at least, it got in the way. Seeing what religious people, in the name of God, did to my native land...and in this country, seeing God's second-hand car salesmen on the cable TV channels, offering indulgences for cash...in fact, all over the world, seeing the self-righteousness roll down like a mighty stream from certain corners of the religious establishment...
I must confess, I changed the channel. I wanted my MTV.
Even though I was a believer.
Perhaps because I was a believer.
I was cynical...not about God, but about God's politics. (There you are, Jim.)
Then, in 1997, a couple of eccentric, septuagenarian British Christians went and ruined my shtick - my reproachfulness. They did it by describing the millennium, the year 2000, as a Jubilee year, as an opportunity to cancel the chronic debts of the world's poorest people. They had the audacity to renew the Lord's call - and were joined by Pope John Paul II, who, from an Irish half-Catholic's point of view, may have had a more direct line to the Almighty.
'Jubilee' - why 'Jubilee'?
What was this year of Jubilee, this year of our Lord's favor?
I'd always read the scriptures, even the obscure stuff. There it was in Leviticus (25:35)...
'If your brother becomes poor,' the scriptures say, 'and cannot maintain himself...you shall maintain him.... You shall not lend him your money at interest, not give him your food for profit.'
It is such an important idea, Jubilee, that Jesus begins his ministry with this. Jesus is a young man, he's met with the rabbis, impressed everyone, people are talking. The elders say, he's a clever guy, this Jesus, but he hasn't done much...yet. He hasn't spoken in public before...
When he does, his first words are from Isaiah: 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,' he says, 'because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.' And Jesus proclaims the year of the Lord's favour, the year of Jubilee (Luke 4:18).
What he was really talking about was an era of grace - and we're still in it.
So fast-forward 2,000 years. That same thought, grace, was made incarnate - in a movement of all kinds of people. It wasn't a bless-me club... it wasn't a holy huddle. These religious guys were willing to get out in the streets, get their boots dirty, wave the placards, follow their convictions with actions...making it really hard for people like me to keep their distance. It was amazing. I almost started to like these church people.
But then my cynicism got another helping hand.
It was what Colin Powell, a five-star general, called the greatest W.M.D. of them all: a tiny little virus called AIDS. And the religious community, in large part, missed it. The ones that didn't miss it could only see it as divine retribution for bad behaviour. Even on children...even [though the] fastest growing group of HIV infections were married, faithful women.
Aha, there they go again! I thought to myself judgmentalism is back!
But in truth, I was wrong again. The church was slow but the church got busy on this the leprosy of our age.
Love was on the move.
Mercy was on the move.
God was on the move.
Moving people of all kinds to work with others they had never met, never would have cared to meet...conservative church groups hanging out with spokesmen for the gay community, all singing off the same hymn sheet on AIDS...soccer moms and quarterbacks...hip-hop stars and country stars. This is what happens when God gets on the move: crazy stuff happens!
Popes were seen wearing sunglasses!
Jesse Helms was seen with a ghetto blaster!
Crazy stuff. Evidence of the spirit.
It was breathtaking. Literally. It stopped the world in its tracks.
When churches started demonstrating on debt, governments listened - and acted. When churches starting organising, petitioning, and even - that most unholy of acts today, God forbid, lobbying ... on AIDS and global health, governments listened - and acted.
I'm here today in all humility to say: you changed minds; you changed policy; you changed the world.
Look, whatever thoughts you have about God, who He is or if He exists, most will agree that if there is a God, He has a special place for the poor. In fact, the poor are where God lives.
Check Judaism. Check Islam. Check pretty much anyone.
I mean, God may well be with us in our mansions on the hill. I hope so. He may well be with us as in all manner of controversial stuff. Maybe, maybe not. But the one thing we can all agree, all faiths and ideologies, is that God is with the vulnerable and poor.
God is in the slums, in the cardboard boxes where the poor play house. God is in the silence of a mother who has infected her child with a virus that will end both their lives. God is in the cries heard under the rubble of war. God is in the debris of wasted opportunity and lives, and God is with us if we are with them. "If you remove the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger and speaking wickedness, and if you give yourself to the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then your light will rise in darkness and your gloom with become like midday and the Lord will continually guide you and satisfy your desire in scorched places."
(cont.)
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Old 02-17-2006, 10:56 PM   #199
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Bono at 2006 Prayer Breakfast (part 2)

It's not a coincidence that in the scriptures, poverty is mentioned more than 2,100 times. It's not an accident. That's a lot of air time, 2,100 mentions. (You know, the only time Christ is judgmental is on the subject of the poor.) 'As you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me' (Matthew 25:40). As I say, good news to the poor.
Here's some good news for the president. After 9/11 we were told America would have no time for the world's poor. America would be taken up with its own problems of safety. And it's true these are dangerous times, but America has not drawn the blinds and double-locked the doors.
In fact, you have doubled aid to Africa. You have tripled funding for global health. Mr. President, your emergency plan for AIDS relief and support for the Global Fund - you and Congress - have put 700,000 people onto life-saving anti-retroviral drugs and provided 8 million bed nets to protect children from malaria.
Outstanding human achievements. Counterintuitive. Historic. Be very, very proud.
But here's the bad news.
From charity to justice, the good news is yet to come. There is much more to do.
There's a gigantic chasm between the scale of the emergency and the scale of the response.
And finally, it's not about charity after all, is it? It's about justice.
Let me repeat that: It's not about charity, it's about justice.
And that's too bad.
Because you're good at charity.
Americans, like the Irish, are good at it. We like to give, and we give a lot, even those who can't afford it.
But justice is a higher standard.
Africa makes a fool of our idea of justice; it makes a farce of our idea of equality.
It mocks our pieties, it doubts our concern, it questions our commitment.
Sixty-five hundred Africans are still dying every day of a preventable, treatable disease, for lack of drugs we can buy at any drug store.
This is not about charity, this is about justice and equality.
Because there's no way we can look at what's happening in Africa and, if we're honest, conclude that deep down, we really accept that Africans are equal to us.
Anywhere else in the world, we wouldn't accept it.
Look at what happened in South East Asia with the tsunami.
150,000 lives lost to that misnomer of all misnomers, "mother nature."
In Africa, 150,000 lives are lost every month.
A tsunami every month.
And it's a completely avoidable catastrophe.
It's annoying but justice and equality are mates. Aren't they? Justice always wants to hang out with equality. And equality is a real pain.
You know, think of those Jewish sheep-herders going to meet the Pharaoh, mud on their shoes, and the Pharaoh says, "Equal?" A preposterous idea: rich and poor are equal? And they say, "Yeah, 'equal,' that's what it says here in this book. We're all made in the image of God."
And eventually the Pharaoh says, "OK, I can accept that. I can accept the Jews - but not the blacks."
"Not the women. Not the gays. Not the Irish. No way, man."
So on we go with our journey of equality.
On we go in the pursuit of justice.
We hear that call in The ONE Campaign, a growing movement of more than 2 million Americans...Left and Right together... united in the belief that where you live should no longer determine whether you live.
We hear that call even more powerfully today, as we mourn the loss of Coretta Scott King - mother of a movement for equality, one that changed the world but is only just getting started. These issues are as alive as they ever were; they just change shape and cross the seas.
Preventing the poorest of the poor from selling their products while we sing the virtues of the free market...that's a justice issue. Holding children to ransom for the debts of their grandparents...that's a justice issue. Withholding life-saving medicines out of deference to the Office of Patents...that's a justice issue.
And while the law is what we say it is, God is not silent on the subject.
That's why I say there's the law of the land. And then there is a higher standard. There's the law of the land, and we can hire experts to write them so they benefit us, so the laws say it's OK to protect our agriculture but it's not OK for African farmers to do the same, to earn a living?
As the laws of man are written, that's what they say.
God will not accept that.
Mine won't, at least. Will yours?
[pause]
I close this morning on...very...thin...ice.
This is a dangerous idea I've put on the table: my God vs. your God, their God vs. our God...vs. no God. It is very easy, in these times, to see religion as a force for division rather than unity.
And this is a town - Washington - that knows something of division.
But the reason I am here, and the reason I keep coming back to Washington, is because this is a town that is proving it can come together on behalf of what the scriptures call the least of these.
This is not a Republican idea.
It is not a Democratic idea.
It is not even, with all due respect, an American idea.
Nor it is unique to any one faith.
'Do to others as you would have them do to you' (Luke 6:30). Jesus says that.
'Righteousness is this: that one should...give away wealth out of love for him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for the emancipation of the captives.' The Koran says that (2.177).
Thus sayeth the Lord: 'Bring the homeless poor into the house, when you see the naked, cover him, then your light will break out like the dawn and your recovery will speedily spring fourth, then your Lord will be your rear guard.' The Jewish scripture says that. Isaiah 58 again.
That is a powerful incentive: 'The Lord will watch your back.' Sounds like a good deal to me, right now.
A number of years ago, I met a wise man who changed my life. In countless ways, large and small, I was always seeking the Lord's blessing. I was saying, you know, I have a new song, look after it. I have a family, please look after them. I have this crazy idea...
And this wise man said: Stop.
He said, stop asking God to bless what you're doing.
Get involved in what God is doing - because it's already blessed.
Well, God, as I said, is with the poor. That, I believe, is what God is doing.
And that is what he's calling us to do.
I was amazed when I first got to this country and I learned how much some churchgoers tithe. Up to 10% of the family budget. Well, how does that compare with the federal budget, the budget for the entire American family? How much of that goes to the poorest people in the world? Less than 1%.
Mr. President, Congress, people of faith, people of America:
I want to suggest to you today that you see the flow of effective foreign assistance as tithing.... Which, to be truly meaningful, will mean an additional 1% of the federal budget tithed to the poor.
What is 1%? (One percent of last year's budget would have been about $26 billion.)
1% is not merely a number on a balance sheet.
1% is the girl in Africa who gets to go to school, thanks to you.
1% is the AIDS patient who gets her medicine, thanks to you.
1% is the African entrepreneur who can start a small family business thanks to you.
1% is not redecorating presidential palaces or money flowing down a rat hole. This 1% is digging waterholes to provide clean water.
1% is a new partnership with Africa, not paternalism toward Africa, where increased assistance flows toward improved governance and initiatives with proven track records and away from boondoggles and white elephants of every description.
America gives less than 1% now. We're asking for an extra 1% to change the world. to transform millions of lives - but not just that and I say this to the military men now - to transform the way that they see us.
1% is national security, enlightened economic self-interest, and a better, safer world rolled into one. Sounds to me that in this town of deals and compromises, 1% is the best bargain around.
These goals - clean water for all; school for every child; medicine for the afflicted, an end to extreme and senseless poverty - these are not just any goals; they are the Millennium Development goals, which this country supports. And they are more than that. They are the Beatitudes for a globalised world.
Now, I'm very lucky. I don't have to sit on any budget committees. And I certainly don't have to sit where you do, Mr. President. I don't have to make the tough choices.
But I can tell you this:
To give 1% more is right. It's smart. And it's blessed.
There is a continent - Africa - being consumed by flames.
I truly believe that when the history books are written, our age will be remembered for three things: the war on terror, the digital revolution, and what we did - or did not do - to put the fire out in Africa.
History, like God, is watching what we do.
Thank you. Thank you, America, and God bless you all.
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Old 02-22-2006, 03:27 PM   #200
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Whoa...

I just read a bunch of these posts...and wow. I haven't ventured on to the Debate section yet...this might have been an ambitious place to start.

Brynn - thanks for posting the Bono speech! I'd just read it the other day and I am happy to know that you've shared it with everyone, because I think it's quite interesting.

Reading the thoughts of others on this board makes my mind whirr...I wonder what you all might think of this:

I was not raised as a Christian. I was raised Unitarian Universalist. I now struggle with all 'organized religion,' though I live by a very strict, self imposed code. Anyway, I know my ideas are not conventional. But what if...
What if the Bible is allegorical? Instead of a literal Heaven and Hell, the idea is that you can acheive immortality - a sort of afterlife - by doing GOOD while you exist on this planet. Your good deeds make your life enjoyable and meaningful and worthwhile, so you feel great and find pleasure and have a "Heavenly" existence. AND, if you are a sh*tty, shallow or mean person, who is self serving and materialistic, you live a meaningless existence and never know the joy and depth experienced by those who do good. You don't really live on because people are somewhat happy to see you go and eager to forget about you.

Just a thought. I hope I haven't offended anyone who takes the Bible literally.

Your thoughts?
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:05 AM   #201
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I think if anyone reads the Bible with an open, questioning heart, and allows the rhema of the words to sink deeply into their spirit, then whether it's allegorical or not is besides the point, don't you think? It's how you read it and why - that's what makes the crucial difference.

If we look at "allegory" as something that hides a message within its story, then yes, the Bible certainly is that in places. Jesus taught in parables all the time, and was confident that "those who have ears to hear" would get what he was saying just fine. I always pictured him rolling his eyes a little at people who would stubbornly insist on interpreting his stories literally - like with the guy who, after hearing the story of the Good Samaritan, wanted to find a loophole and pin him down with a question like "yes, but exactly who is my neighbor that I have to be kind to him?"

Some books of the Bible are just blatant good advice and make no bones about it - like Proverbs. Or James. And the Psalms are pure worship, and about being authentic before God. If it floats your boat to read the Psalms and imagine that God is some symbol for something else that has meaning for you, why not? If that is what makes it rich and beautiful for you, who would I be to say that's 'wrong"? But my guess is that after a number of years of pursuing anything like that with real passion and fervency, sooner or later you're going to catch up with it, or it will catch up to you and the experience will deepen and broaden into ways that can't even be imagined at the start.

I guess the only thing I would say definitely about it one way or another is that whatever it is one pursues, do it as completely and fully as possible - commit to it. It's the shallow dabbling and sampling and cherry-picking that, although fun and entertaining, doesn't always lead to as deep and satisfying an experience that many of us really do crave. That's what I figured out about myself, anyway. Joseph Campbell kind of laments about that very thing in his brilliant The Power of Myth - an amazing interview that he gives to Bill Moyers - he expresses regret for the fact that he's really just been a student/observer of the world's religions his whole life, rather than diving in deeply as a participant.

One thing that comes to mind that has always captured my imagination (you reminded me of it with your "what if?" questions) was a passage somewhere in the New Testament (dang, I wish I could pull the exact place of it out of thin air)where some apostle - Matthew? or perhaps it was Paul, who knows? - is shown several visions by the Lord up in heaven, etc. and then, very mysteriously, is strictly forbidden to tell anyone what he saw about one particular thing he was shown. I heard someone conjecturing about what that could possibly be, once, a monk/guru/priest type - and it was so interesting. I'll come back with it when I track down the passage, unless someone can quickly point me to it...
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:34 AM   #202
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Are you talking about Revelations 10:4?
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Old 03-18-2006, 12:17 AM   #203
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Thanks, not sure - I had an idea that it was actually much earlier in the New Testament, but perhaps not. At any rate, someone was conjecturing that what the apostle could have been shown at that point - and forbidden to reveal - might very well have been a vision of heaven filled with everyone - believers in Christ (as the only Son of God, killed for the sins of the entire world and ressurrected) and non-believers alike. Which would of course be everyone else, "good" and "bad" alike, just as there are "good" and "bad" Christians alike.
The priest went on to say that if that were true, it would make complete sense not to report that to everyone or else there would be no code of accountability and the world would most likely be even more hellish to live in than it already is. There's been a lot of discussion here about that - basically that with or without the Ten Commandments, for instance, mankind would somehow find it in itself to just be naturally kind-hearted to all as a mere matter of survival - but not arguing that here right now.
what i am suggesting is that this priest paints a picture of heaven that is all-inclusive, not just a club for Southern Baptists and people who do good deeds and follow all the rules, blah blah blah.
To me, if we take the Bible at its word that Christ's suffering on the cross was for all of mankind, that "none should persish, but have ever-lasting life" - not just for those in the future who would embrace him by faith - there is nothing inconsistent with this priest's theory.

Furthermore, it takes nothing away from the fact that Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life - no one comes to the Father except by Me," as long as you take that in terms of whether or not you consider that what he set out to accomplish by dying on the cross (to save all of mankind from the ultimate consequences of sin) was a task that was truly completed or not. Did he actually save the whole world for all time or not? Whether or not we embrace him for it, is, and always has been, entirely voluntary, as with everything to do spiritually with him. Hear me out on this - let me make this clear - whether or not we accept this offer of his still takes nothing away from the fact that he is still indeed the very means by which we've all entered heaven and "come to the Father" when the time comes. But with the possibility of an all-inclusive heaven, we can then embrace him out of gratitude rather than fear. We are then truly liberated from fear in all its forms.

I think most Christians could agree that when it comes to the work done on the cross, yes, Jesus himself said "It is finished." As a preacher once put it to his congregation "It's like Jesus is pleading with us all, saying 'Look, I paid the ultimate price for you. I've bought you. Now may I have you?"

If we look at the work of the cross from this point of view - then it truly is good news for everyone for all time. It's quite a challenge for rigidly traditional Christians to consider. I would think it could wipe a smile off of a smug, self-righteous face or two.

It does, however, bring up the problem of justice. Is it "fair" that Hitler gets into heaven? No, not by what anyone would consider "fair." But God has made it clear that everyone will have to answer for what they've done - and not only that, but that "judgment begins with the house of the Lord." So that says to me, basically, that forget everyone else when it comes to facing judgement, whatever that entails, because everyone needs to answer for themselves and will be doing well to do just that without worrying about the rest of the world as well. Or, as Brian McLaren says, "It's nobody's business who gets into heaven."

Over and over we are told in the Bible not to judge others, but to just let the Holy Spirit accomplish its work in us so "that we may present ourselves" as spotless before the Lord - a state that God already views us in, seeing as how the blood of Christ has already washed us clean for all time anyway.

"But what about the Great Commission?" other Christians might wonder.
Well, what about it? Anyone? Bueller?

Anyway, just weird stuff I think about sometimes. I have no idea if any of this interpretation is absolutely "right" or true or not. But I do find it appealing on a personal level. Above all else, I guess a requirement of my own is that whatever theory is out there, it needs to be elegant and consistent with what's established in the words of Christ - what we have access to, anyway.

I also find it far more interesting to discuss things like on this on a less confrontational theoretical level rather than whether or not any of it exists, you know? Minds far greater than ours have done that already in a far more satisfying way. Trying to change each other's mind on that is pointless.

So yeah, here you are in the Christianity Discussion thread (or rather, the "Christianianity" Discussion thread )
Can we please discuss Christianity now?
I do believe that the Squid Overlords have their own "let's make fun of christianity thread" now, so ...
I'm particularly interested in where modern Christianity is going, what schools of thought, ethical struggles within the faith are these days - stuff like that. I'd love to be able to bounce ideas like this off of people who would enjoy actually discussing Christianity. It's a rich topic, and I can use all the imput I can get - there's no end to the questions I have of my own.
peace peace peace
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1. While sitting at your desk, lift your right foot off the floor and make clockwise circles.
2. Now, while doing this, draw the number "6" in the air with your right hand.
3. Your foot will change direction.

Last edited by Brynn : 03-18-2006 at 12:39 AM. Reason: can't spell, etc.
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Old 03-18-2006, 01:39 AM   #204
trisherina
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The Squid Overlords have noted your mocking of their cadre.
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Old 03-18-2006, 04:13 PM   #205
craig johnston
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sorry brynn, but i have a lot of trouble with all
that heaven and hell stuff.

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Old 03-18-2006, 07:23 PM   #206
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I've always been particularly drawn to this portion of the Christian bible:

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, is not pompous, it is not inflated,

5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,

6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.

7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails.

Skip to verse 13: So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Those verses, when compared to these verses in 1 John, have always been intriguing to me:

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.

8 He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

These verses have always given me pause for thought.

My .02 cents worth.

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Old 03-18-2006, 07:34 PM   #207
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That writ, perhaps the Squid Lords love us the same way...
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Old 03-19-2006, 01:46 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynn
where some apostle - Matthew? or perhaps it was Paul, who knows? - is shown several visions by the Lord up in heaven, etc. and then, very mysteriously, is strictly forbidden to tell anyone what he saw about one particular thing he was shown.
He was shown........nothing.
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Old 03-20-2006, 05:30 PM   #209
Brynn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmotionalVelcro
it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury
This in particular is where I fall down all the time

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmotionalVelcro
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God.

8 He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.
Sounds pretty inclusive to me. I like the requirement of the active choice to love in order to experience the presence of God. There's something about the personal pronoun in the name of God ("I am") that almost suggests that when we choose to love, we enter into the best of who we are as well.
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1. While sitting at your desk, lift your right foot off the floor and make clockwise circles.
2. Now, while doing this, draw the number "6" in the air with your right hand.
3. Your foot will change direction.
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Old 03-20-2006, 07:19 PM   #210
EmotionalVelcro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynn
Sounds pretty inclusive to me. I like the requirement of the active choice to love in order to experience the presence of God. There's something about the personal pronoun in the name of God ("I am") that almost suggests that when we choose to love, we enter into the best of who we are as well.
What happens to the poor buddhist Mongolian yak-herder who lived in 1200AD, who--just like you--tried his best to love everyone, tried to control his temper, tried not to "brood over injury," though was not perfect in doing so, but never heard of Jesus?

What happens to that guy?

I don't mean to be offensive or anything, I've just always wondered what the take was on a situation such as this.

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