is fascism sexy?

[Frieda]

i think those pictures are sexy too. but that's my idiotic taste for uniforms and blinking metal and bruce willis-style action movies.

what i don't like is that the uniform is nazi, because nazis are not cool because of all the bad stuff that happened in the past and of the crazy people that claim to be nazis today.

so what if it had been a usa navy uniform from 1945? would that make it less sexy? probably not for me, as i like the military style. how about you, agent?

[Con ate dog]

Originally Posted by madasacutsnake

That's nice.

It seems to me that asian countries are less sensitive to the whole nazi thing than the rest of us. Probably to do with their notorious lack of history teaching/revisionist history teaching.

While in Hong Kong I was surprised by the amount of shops devoted almost solely to selling nazi memorablilia. I don't know if they were real pieces or reproduction or some combination of the two. I didn't care to look too closely.

However, the ongoing resentment against Japan for what they did is still profound, especially in China and Korea. China alone lost about as many civilians as Russia did.

There are a lot of woman here doing their jobs in lilitary uniforms. Yeah, uniforms are damn sexy. Period. Don't know why.

There is a fetish out there for Nazi outfits. Evil, naughty, some folks blend the two. "Oh! Himmler! Get away, you nasty Nazi brute!"

[Brynn]

That sort of reminds me of that scene in Gone With The Wind when Scarlett blows away "that dirty Yankee!" I'm no Confederate, but that was hot.

Seriously though, there are many people out there who are completely spooked by anything Nazi, and believe that it's cursed. I might be one of them. My husband, who is normally a very unsuperstitious, logical guy was given a ceremonial sword that, upon closer inspection, bore a tiny Nazi insignia. He completely freaked out and got rid of it - did not want it in our house or anywhere near it. I have no idea what he did with it. My practical Scottish nature immediately thought "Wow, we could have made a fortune on E-Bay!" but you know, upon reflection, I just can't imagine that any amount of money gained from an item like that could lead to any good thing, so I'm glad he's more principled than I am!
I think one reason he's so sensitive to stuff like that stems from something that happened while he was getting his degree as a young American student in Heidelburg. He tells an interesting story about it - a story that he was very reluctant to even tell, but had alluded to it over the years. I've gotten it out of him little by little by asking lots of specific questions until he finally just told me about it.

One early evening, he and his roommate (another American) decided it would be fun to pack a romantic picnic and hike with a couple of very cute, very "available" German girls up to this spot up on a hill in the woods. They'd heard rumors that there were the remains of an old Nazi amphitheatre there, where many Nazi rallys had been held - after all, Heidelburg, home to Nietzche, had been the birthplace of Nazism, and was considered its cultural center. Hitler himself had spoken at this amphitheatre many times, so they figured it would be a great historical place to check out, creep the girls out just a little - and perhaps score. The girls were curious and game, so they set out.

It was a pretty strenuous climb, so they were all really looking forward to "resting" and eating once they got there. They were laughing and joking and flirting, and generally having a fantastic time together.
As they approached the site, he says that the atmosphere gradually got more and more oppressive, and the jokes subsided (which is saying a lot if you knew my husband). The girls were starting to feel weirded out, and started to talk about turning back.
Horny boys = persuasive boys. They all decided that they were just spooking themselves. So they pressed on. Eventually they saw the ruins through the trees. Suddenly "it was like hitting a wall of - well, darkness. I really can't explain it," he says. The girls refused to go any farther. The guys, needing to make a macho show of shaking it off, told the girls to wait at the edge, and kept going, entering the site.

As they made their way to the middle, with the original intent of walking into the stands and exploring, they found they couldn't go any farther. As they stood there, he says he felt "pressed in on all sides. Like standing and trying to breathe in a vat of pea soup. It was like something terrible was there." He says that a pure sense of panic and flight shot through him, which he struggled to ignore. The place emanated evil. This emanation, for lack of a better word, was completely dark and devoid of goodness.

He had trouble with the next part and I had to ask a lot of questions here. What happened? What was it like? Describe it. What do you think it was?

"Just imagine what something like that - something with no goodness in it whatsoever, would be. As we stood there, it was as if a creeping blackness was oozing from the ground itself, it was everywhere, as if everything was covered in blood. And if we stayed there any longer, we ourselves would get infected with it. It was coming up from the ground and all around. I don't believe in Satan, but if anything was ever satanic, this was. Someone had definitely been tortured and murdered there. Maybe a lot of people. I felt like screaming."

He said it was the most tangibly evil thing he or his roommate had ever encountered, and an overwhelming sense of self-preservation overtook them at the same time. They both independently decided to run at the same moment. They high-tailed it back to where the girls were supposed to have been waiting. The girls had left already, and they were all scattered.
They spent the next hour calling for the girls, who were making their way down the hill in complete darkness. Once down, everyone headed straight home, completely shaken. They managed to call the girls once they got home to make sure they'd made it okay. The girls didn't want to see them, didn't want them to check on them. The guys never did hook up with them again, nor did they try. As hungry as they'd been, they found that neither of them could eat that night.

I asked if he knew of any religious groups had ever gone up to that site to try to exorcise it or pray over it or bless it or cleanse it in any way. My pacifist husband told me that what it needed was to be nuked. He did find out while he was there that a lot of people in Heidelburg knew about the place, that it was an open secret. No one ever talked about it, and people that my husband spoke to about it could not believe they had actually gone up there at night. Apparently it was sitting on a very valuable piece of land that for years developers had tried to make into something, but all attempts to turn it into something usable were fruitless, and sometimes ended in tragedy. People spoke about it as if it were truly cursed, and stayed clear of it.

So here was a case of some guys who thought a place like that would be a sexy spot to "do it," but the reality proved to be more than they could handle. I challenge anyone who thinks this s*** is sexy, go find this place and try to do what they did.

[Alighieri]

Hello all,

I have been researching WW2 and Nazi fetish. First let me take away some of the myths of what people into this fetish do and do not believe. First, the facination is not with Nazism its with the power that the uniform signifies. For many especially in the S&M world the whole kick is giving someone else power over your body. And for some that Hugo Boss Uniform exudes power and control. We in America even pattern many of our police Honor Guard uniforms off of the same patterns.

Secondly few, if any, think killing 6 million people is sexy. And if they do they need to be committed. Most people will tell you that they hate what the nazi's did, but the uniforms were nice. As the quote goes "the devil has the best music and the Nazi's have the best uniforms." Or another quote more apt is "you can admire the asthetics (of the Nazis) but not the ethics."

I am on a dicussion board (www.fedoralounge.com) that if you even mention that the Nazi Uniforms are nice looking and that the symbols they used are not inherently evil, you could get banned. They are all about how great the US was in WW2 and how evil Germany was. Even to the point of absurdity. This reaction is part of what draws people to the Nazi imagry. The power it has. Even now people fear the uniform. (
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showp...2&postcount=60) The uniforms of the SS were crafted to be powerful propaganda for Germany and they succeded. In the US we see tshirts with the communist hammer and sickle, the rising sun, even the red star, and dont blink at it usually. However if we see a swastika we freak out and claim insensitivity.

We as people give power to symbols and items. A unifom is nothing more than cloth, it is the man in the uniform that makes the difference. A symbol is just a bunch of lines till we give it power. We as humans can give, take away, or change the power of a symbol.

-Alighieri

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by Brynn

He had trouble with the next part and I had to ask a lot of questions here. What happened? What was it like? Describe it. What do you think it was?

"Just imagine what something like that - something with no goodness in it whatsoever, would be. As we stood there, it was as if a creeping blackness was oozing from the ground itself, it was everywhere, as if everything was covered in blood. And if we stayed there any longer, we ourselves would get infected with it. It was coming up from the ground and all around. I don't believe in Satan, but if anything was ever satanic, this was. Someone had definitely been tortured and murdered there. Maybe a lot of people. I felt like screaming."

He said it was the most tangibly evil thing he or his roommate had ever encountered, and an overwhelming sense of self-preservation overtook them at the same time. They both independently decided to run at the same moment. They high-tailed it back to where the girls were supposed to have been waiting. The girls had left already, and they were all scattered.
They spent the next hour calling for the girls, who were making their way down the hill in complete darkness. Once down, everyone headed straight home, completely shaken. They managed to call the girls once they got home to make sure they'd made it okay. The girls didn't want to see them, didn't want them to check on them. The guys never did hook up with them again, nor did they try. As hungry as they'd been, they found that neither of them could eat that night.

I asked if he knew of any religious groups had ever gone up to that site to try to exorcise it or pray over it or bless it or cleanse it in any way. My pacifist husband told me that what it needed was to be nuked. He did find out while he was there that a lot of people in Heidelburg knew about the place, that it was an open secret. No one ever talked about it, and people that my husband spoke to about it could not believe they had actually gone up there at night. Apparently it was sitting on a very valuable piece of land that for years developers had tried to make into something, but all attempts to turn it into something usable were fruitless, and sometimes ended in tragedy. People spoke about it as if it were truly cursed, and stayed clear of it.

So here was a case of some guys who thought a place like that would be a sexy spot to "do it," but the reality proved to be more than they could handle. I challenge anyone who thinks this s*** is sexy, go find this place and try to do what they did.

I would like to point out that the phenomenon you describe is the same thing that happens to people watching a scary movie or in a "haunted" house. The mind plays tricks on us. When we think something is there our mind can imagine it. I am not discounting that Hitler was evil, he was. But he was not supernatural. Just as there is not curse on the Pharohs tomb, that place is not cursed either.

-Alighieri.

[craig johnston]

hmmm, interesting points. i think the comparison with people wearing communist symbols on their t-shirts misses an important aspect, which is that no-one does that to be sexy. you don't find people dressing up in soviet uniforms to go to fetish clubs etc (believe me, i've researched this!).
yes, i can understand the power/control thing, but does that have to be played out by associating yourself with the most evil political movement the world has ever known?
i only just found out about the hugo boss thing. good job it's not an issue for us paupers.

[madasacutsnake]

Originally Posted by Alighieri

Secondly few, if any, think killing 6 million people is sexy.

TWELVE million.

FFS.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by craig johnston

hmmm, interesting points. i think the comparison with people wearing communist symbols on their t-shirts misses an important aspect, which is that no-one does that to be sexy. you don't find people dressing up in soviet uniforms to go to fetish clubs etc (believe me, i've researched this!).
yes, i can understand the power/control thing, but does that have to be played out by associating yourself with the most evil political movement the world has ever known?
i only just found out about the hugo boss thing. good job it's not an issue for us paupers.

Agreed, few wear communist symbols to be sexy, but they wear them and we as a society barely even take notice, where we revile at the thought of the symbols the Nazi stole from other cultures and tainted with their evil. And as luck would have it I know of a few people who do have Soviet uniforms that dress up in them.

I am not sure if you check the history that the Nazi's are the most evil, that is part of my point. The Soviet and Chinese communists have sent many more people to their death than did the Nazi's. I think in Western Culture we are taught that Germany was the ultimate evil and we accept it since we fought a war against them, where we didn't fight a war with USSR and have yet to need to war with China.

Power is sexy and the Nazi uniform has always represented total power. Even in movies today (V for Vendetta comes to mind) authoritarian power is represented by a similar uniform, much like American police uniforms.

-Alighieri

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by madasacutsnake

TWELVE million.

FFS.

I was speaking of just the Jewish people as that seems to be who is the most offended by the symbols the Nazi's used. The total number is up for debate it ranges from 9-20 million depending on your source.

Alighieri

[madasacutsnake]

Originally Posted by Alighieri

I was speaking of just the Jewish people

No you weren't. Good job on the googling though.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by madasacutsnake

No you weren't. Good job on the googling though.

Actually I was only speaking of the Jewish people. And I didn't have to google anything, like I mentioned I have been researching this for some time. Many people were in the camps for a variety of reasons. The Jews were the single largest group of people, as well as the people who seem to still be the most effected by it, thus my reason for using their number.

Regards

Alighieri

[madasacutsnake]

Well in which case you rather successfully succeeded in not only minimalising Nazism but ostracising a lot of people who for whatever reason, came along and made up the numbers at Goering's party.

Which is kind of an insensitive way to make a sensitive point.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by madasacutsnake

Well in which case you rather successfully succeeded in not only minimalising Nazism but ostracising a lot of people who for whatever reason, came along and made up the numbers at Goering's party.

Which is kind of an insensitive way to make a sensitive point.

Well since the total number is still up for debate, the only number that is universally agreed on is the Jewish number it seemed to be the most solid fact to use in a discussion. If the number is 20 million then you have minimized Nazism and ostracized a lot of people as well with your 12million figure. But none of this is actually pertinent to the original discussion. If you like we can debate the death toll in another thread.


Alighieri

[craig johnston]

the reason that i described the nazi regime as the most evil ever, is that it was so systematic, and took place in a shorter period of time. yes, stalin was clearly responsible for at least as many deaths, but the object of communism is not the extermination of whole races of people, this was his personal evil. the concept of nazi-ism calls for the liquidation of those races considered to be inferior.

Agreed, few wear communist symbols to be sexy, but they wear them and we as a society barely even take notice, where we revile at the thought of the symbols the Nazi stole from other cultures and tainted with their evil. And as luck would have it I know of a few people who do have Soviet uniforms that dress up in them

yes, but look at the title of the thread. i am questioning why it is particularly nazi uniforms that seem to arouse certain people's ardour. your answers sound like apologies for the unforgivable.

[12"razormix]

Originally Posted by Alighieri

Power is sexy

i'm curious - is that a result of your research or your personal opinion (or both?)