is fascism sexy?

[Avalon]

Alighieri
Here is a book for you to read..I am sure you will find something of interest for you somewhere in the pages, though I do not think it will be sexy.


Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time
By Michael Shermer

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0805070893&id=oZpEZuO7o-IC&pg=PR8&lpg=PR7&dq=number+of+people+killed+by+th e+nazis&sig=cHFukGp72gx74Xjlo7RxrmPXIvQ


Power is sexy? All power or just certain powers? Like..Donald Trump; he is powerful..you think he is sexy? *shudder*
Superpowers? ( Wolverine = SEXY----Hitler = NO! ) Or is it power over life and death that you find to be a turn on? Please educate me as I base sexiness on silly things like a nice smile and good teeth, kindness, similar interests, beautiful eyes, nice body. (This is, perhaps, how I ended up marrying a handsome, yet poor, man.)


While someone wearing a uniform may be sexy, I do not find the uniform itself a reason to bed someone. It should be the person you find attractive, the inner being, not the trappings. This is just me, but I gotta tell ya...I am happy and never had to question whether what I find attractive/sexy should be considered correct.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by craig johnston

the reason that i described the nazi regime as the most evil ever, is that it was so systematic, and took place in a shorter period of time. yes, stalin was clearly responsible for at least as many deaths, but the object of communism is not the extermination of whole races of people, this was his personal evil. the concept of nazi-ism calls for the liquidation of those races considered to be inferior.


yes, but look at the title of the thread. i am questioning why it is particularly nazi uniforms that seem to arouse certain people's ardour. your answers sound like apologies for the unforgivable.

A healthy debate can be had on the most evil regime in history. I personally think Stalin or Mao would rank at 1 and 2 for sheer numbers with Hitler being a close third for the reasons you gave. But that is opinion trying to compare dissimilar things. Mao and Stalin didn't concentrate on race, they were more into dissidents. But they both killed a huge number of people, more than Hitler according to most sources. I think that those regimes are not seen as the same kind of evil because there are not the horrible pictures of the gulags and we didn't war against them. Again mostly opinion based on the research I have been reading.

I think for much the same reasons that other taboos excite humans, that is why the Nazi uniforms attract the feelings they do. Vampires, though mythical, are killers but we have in society romanticized them in books and movies because it both excites and repels us. There is also the thought that "every girl loves a man in uniform" Military uniforms represent control, discipline and authority. Many people find that sexy.

And before the "apologist" argument erupts, I in no way deny or condone what Hitler or the Nazi's did.


Alighieri

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by 12"razormix

i'm curious - is that a result of your research or your personal opinion (or both?)

Both.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Alighieri
Here is a book for you to read..I am sure you will find something of interest for you somewhere in the pages, though I do not think it will be sexy.


Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time
By Michael Shermer

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0805070893&id=oZpEZuO7o-IC&pg=PR8&lpg=PR7&dq=number+of+people+killed+by+th e+nazis&sig=cHFukGp72gx74Xjlo7RxrmPXIvQ


Power is sexy? All power or just certain powers? Like..Donald Trump; he is powerful..you think he is sexy? *shudder*
Superpowers? ( Wolverine = SEXY----Hitler = NO! ) Or is it power over life and death that you find to be a turn on? Please educate me as I base sexiness on silly things like a nice smile and good teeth, kindness, similar interests, beautiful eyes, nice body. (This is, perhaps, how I ended up marrying a handsome, yet poor, man.)


While someone wearing a uniform may be sexy, I do not find the uniform itself a reason to bed someone. It should be the person you find attractive, the inner being, not the trappings. This is just me, but I gotta tell ya...I am happy and never had to question whether what I find attractive/sexy should be considered correct.

Thank you for the recommendation for my reading list. I may very well put in on my list. Though if your point was to be made by the "Holocaust denier" section of the book, I am afraid your point would be for naught as I don't denigh that the Holocaust happened or was horrific.

To a great many people, maybe not everyone (like yourself), find power sexy. "The" Donald is rarely without an attractive lady friend on his arm, to use your example. I am male so men rarely rate as sexy for me. If we are to address this to me personally, I find feminine power sexy and I enjoy friendships with powerful men. As to Hitler, along with Eva Braun, he had several female companions who must have thought he was attractive in some way. In most historical accounts of Hitler, when they discussed him personally, he was normally described as a very charismatic and likeable fellow. Much the same as when a serial killer is caught, many people said they never suspected that person because he was so nice.

Some people would tell you that the power over life and death is a turn on, I am not one of them. You have mentioned that you find other things attractive in men, which is fine. But other people do find power sexy like you think a smile is sexy. There is nothing wrong with either, just different. And again I agree with you that the uniform shouldn't be the only reason you bed someone, but that uniform might make someone more (or less) attractive to a potential mate.


Cheers,
Alighieri

[Brynn]

Kind of like the girl at the party who immediately asks the guy what kind of car he drives, or declares that she will "only date men who drive Saturns/Corvettes/Mercedes...(blah blah blah I'm stupid)!" I guess .

i think it's rather naive at this point in our history to just shrug at the implications that the swastika has taken on and say "it's just a symbol." Before, the swastika was an ancient symbol of life, yes. So what? The Nazis reversed the direction and made it a symbol of absolute evil. That's just the reality. To use the symbol today when the Holocaust is still fresh in the global psyche is nothing less than an act of belligerance, and to pretend it isn't belies a kind of cultural blindness. Nothing wrong with a "military look". But that which is specifically nazi is problematic.


I don't think it can be disputed that many people in all walks of life are drawn to taboo and think it's sexy simply because it's "forbidden." I guess in a world where all other perversions have been exhausted, nazi chic is just the latest shocking thing to apply to a desensitized sense of sexuality, not to mention a huge need for attention, negative or otherwise. I'd prefer not to have to rub shoulders with it, and admit to feeling contemptuous when I see it in a club, but if someone wants to look like a complete moron, it's none of my business. If it gets someone's rocks off to wear it, well, life is difficult enough already - let 'em. But societal acceptance of the practice isn't what the wearer is going for anyway.

Just curious - did you select your avatar just for this thread? Bit of tongue-in-cheek humor? After saying all that above, I do find the image at the very least appropriate to the discussion, anyway. Welcome.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by Brynn

Kind of like the girl at the party who immediately asks the guy what kind of car he drives, or declares that she will "only date men who drive Saturns/Corvettes/Mercedes...(blah blah blah I'm stupid)!" I guess .

That is close to my point, it is more like a guy that will only date Redheads or a girl who will only date guys taller than her. Heck I know a few women that have went out with guys because of a cologne.

Originally Posted by Brynn

i think it's rather naive at this point in our history to just shrug at the implications that the swastika has taken on and say "it's just a symbol." Before, the swastika was an ancient symbol of life, yes. So what? The Nazis reversed the direction and made it a symbol of absolute evil. That's just the reality. To use the symbol today when the Holocaust is still fresh in the global psyche is nothing less than an act of belligerance, and to pretend it isn't belies a kind of cultural blindness. Nothing wrong with a "military look". But that which is specifically nazi is problematic..

I guess a subtext to my argument is when is it "safe" to recaim a disgraced symbol? Christians did it with the cross. When can the world reclaim the Swastika? Or has the world already begun with this "nazi chic" style? Henry Miller has a good quote on breaking of taboos.

Originally Posted by Brynn

I don't think it can be disputed that many people in all walks of life are drawn to taboo and think it's sexy simply because it's "forbidden." I guess in a world where all other perversions have been exhausted, nazi chic is just the latest shocking thing to apply to a desensitized sense of sexuality, not to mention a huge need for attention, negative or otherwise. I'd prefer not to have to rub shoulders with it, and admit to feeling contemptuous when I see it in a club, but if someone wants to look like a complete moron, it's none of my business. If it gets someone's rocks off to wear it, well, life is difficult enough already - let 'em. But societal acceptance of the practice isn't what the wearer is going for anyway.

I agree with a live-and-let live philosophy.

Originally Posted by Brynn

Just curious - did you select your avatar just for this thread? Bit of tongue-in-cheek humor? After saying all that above, I do find the image at the very least appropriate to the discussion, anyway. Welcome.

Yes. I did. It is actually an Italian WW2 uniform, but many people would mistakenly identify it as a Nazi uniform. Which is always humorous to me, because those are usually the people who "scream" the loudest about how evil the nazi's were and everything about them should be banned.

Cheers,
Alighieri

[Brynn]

Ah yes, Mussolini's boys. Another facist of note. Fun guy.

Must a disgraced symbol be reclaimed at all?
The ancient swastika served its time, the nazi swastika served its time and place - I just wonder - for someone who isn't the least bit superstitious, where does the need to resurrect a graphic symbol - especially such a loaded one - come from? Is there a gap in the world right now that needs filling by the nazi emblem? I mean, apart from the needs of the fetishists, of course

[craig johnston]

Yes. I did. It is actually an Italian WW2 uniform, but many people would mistakenly identify it as a Nazi uniform. Which is always humorous to me, because those are usually the people who "scream" the loudest about how evil the nazi's were and everything about them should be banned.

so you disagree with those who point out how evil the nazis were?
this is the kind of comment that makes you sound as if you admire them actually, but are afraid to admit it.

[12"razormix]

johnston, you sexy beast!

( btw, dante doesn't sound to me as if he's scared of anything and he has pointed out several times that he doesn't disagree with the fact that nazis are evil.. )

[craig johnston]

Originally Posted by 12"razormix

johnston, you sexy beast!

wrong thread!

he has pointed out several times that he doesn't disagree with the fact that nazis are evil..

yes, but then he mocks those who say it.
somewhat confusing, somewhat confused?

[12"razormix]

i understood it this way: if you scream about banning anything nazi, you should at least be able to recognize a nazi uniform... or something like that

but i'm sure mr. alighieri will clarify!

i find this whole discussion somewhat pointless. you either like or don't like. on this issue, the people who don't like tend to dislike to an extremely high degree (myself included) and there is not much room for compromise.

mr. dante, it seems to me, likes to the point of "i find it sexually exciting to look at a uniform" but rejects the ideology behind the costumes.

[craig johnston]

it's one of those areas where two things that i strongly believe in
come into conflict, ie a revulsion for fascism and a commitment to
sexual freedom.
i'm also interested in understanding why people find something so
nauseous exciting.
and, i must admit, i have a sneaking suspicion that there are those
who use it as a way of acceptably living out their political as well as
sexual fantasies.

otherwise, you're right, it's pretty boring.

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by Brynn

Ah yes, Mussolini's boys. Another facist of note. Fun guy.

Must a disgraced symbol be reclaimed at all?
The ancient swastika served its time, the nazi swastika served its time and place - I just wonder - for someone who isn't the least bit superstitious, where does the need to resurrect a graphic symbol - especially such a loaded one - come from? Is there a gap in the world right now that needs filling by the nazi emblem? I mean, apart from the needs of the fetishists, of course

I suppose there is no need to reclaim the swastika, anymore than there is a need to reclaim any other symbol. I suppose I find it an interesting discussion as to wether or not we should reclaim it. I think that in time it will be reclaimed and reused, much as the cross was.

Alighieri

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by craig johnston

so you disagree with those who point out how evil the nazis were?
this is the kind of comment that makes you sound as if you admire them actually, but are afraid to admit it.

I do not disagree with those who point out the terrible things the Nazi's did. I think it was barbaric and wrong, as I have stated already. The irony is that many people couldn't pick out the uniforms of Germany in WW2. They will mistake US police uniforms and Uniforms of other countries mistakenly calling them Nazi, when in fact they weren't. It is more of amusement that without seeing the uniforms on TV and in movies, many people who say that the uniforms shouldn't be worn couldn't identify them.

I don't admire the Nazi's. I do however admire the German people. And having studied WW2 and the politics that led up to the war, I understand how they were mislead and lied to to get them into a war. I think in America we are feeling the same way the German people did.

Alighieri

[Alighieri]

Originally Posted by 12"razormix

i understood it this way: if you scream about banning anything nazi, you should at least be able to recognize a nazi uniform... or something like that

mr. dante, it seems to me, likes to the point of "i find it sexually exciting to look at a uniform" but rejects the ideology behind the costumes.

That would be a fair summation of some of my points.

Alighieri