ZEFRANK.COM - message board  

Go Back   ZEFRANK.COM - message board > FAST CHAT
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-17-2007, 08:32 PM   #16
madasacutsnake
no more nice girl
 
madasacutsnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bales View Post

In the history of the world there have been no luckier people than those who have freely come to, or been born in, the US. It is undeniable that there are significant problems here, but the 300 million people in the US live like kings and queens compared to how almost everyone else in history has ever lived.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/best.html
__________________
He really shatters the myth of white supremacy once and for all.
madasacutsnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2007, 08:59 PM   #17
trisherina
meretricious dilettante
 
trisherina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,068
I think I'll stick. Might even have an election sometime ourselves, you know, to make the news and all.
__________________
Because how we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. -- Annie Dillard
trisherina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2007, 10:10 PM   #18
Marcus Bales
________________
 
Marcus Bales's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a coign of the cliff between lowland and highland, at the sea-down's edge between windward and lee, walled round with rocks as an inland island, the ghost of a garden fronts the sea.
Posts: 8,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie aubrey View Post
i guess i'm uncomfortable with arrogantly proclaiming the US to be the smartest final destination for residents of other countries.
I didn't say it's the smartest final destination, I said if they're smart enough to want to come we ought to welcome them.
__________________
My strength is as the strength of eight --
My heart is nearly pure.
Marcus Bales is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2007, 10:14 PM   #19
Hyakujo's Fox
left hanging
 
Hyakujo's Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: between the click of the light and the start of the dream
Posts: 10,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bales View Post
I didn't say it's the smartest final destination, I said if they're smart enough to want to come we ought to welcome them.
Yes, but the phrase "smart enough to want to come" implies people who don't want to come (and I won't name names) are not "smart enough".
Hyakujo's Fox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2007, 10:23 PM   #20
Anna
n
 
Anna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bales View Post
I didn't say it's the smartest final destination, I said if they're smart enough to want to come we ought to welcome them.
No requirements?
what about disease, criminal record, skills?
Anna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 12:15 AM   #21
Marcus Bales
________________
 
Marcus Bales's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a coign of the cliff between lowland and highland, at the sea-down's edge between windward and lee, walled round with rocks as an inland island, the ghost of a garden fronts the sea.
Posts: 8,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyakujo's Fox View Post
Yes, but the phrase "smart enough to want to come" implies people who don't want to come (and I won't name names) are not "smart enough".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna View Post
No requirements?
what about disease, criminal record, skills?
Oh, it's like "if you can make it there you'll make it anywhere" -- it's not a requirement that to be successful you have to be successful in New York. You can be smart enough to want to and not do it; you can find other ways and places to do it. But my point is that if people are smart enough to want to come to this place where opportunity is more abundant, that we who are here already should welcome them. The idea that now that we're here, or since we were born here, we should draw the ladder up after us seems awfully mean-spirited to me.

As for disease, record, skills, sure, there have to be some rules, but the default category ought to be "yes", not "no". I'm not saying let everyone in who asks, only that asking ought to be a big plus in and of itself.
__________________
My strength is as the strength of eight --
My heart is nearly pure.
Marcus Bales is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 01:29 AM   #22
Anna
n
 
Anna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bales View Post
As for disease, record, skills, sure, there have to be some rules, but the default category ought to be "yes", not "no". I'm not saying let everyone in who asks, only that asking ought to be a big plus in and of itself.
er, um, huh? I don't really understand what you are saying, you mean if they ask to enter we should say, "oh, how nice that's really great! (but you still have to get in line!)"

There are apx. 12 million illegal immigrants in the US, over 1 million people apply legally every year; in 2003 apx. 400,000 people were granted entry, apx. 600,000 were still in process (red tape; forms, health and criminal background...). Their are 47 million American citizens in the US now without health care, we are burning energy at such a high rate that we are choking cities with pollution and waste, we have water problems and shortages, food problems, job problems, homeless problems, infrastructure problems. How many more people do you think the system or country can support without breaking it or denying those who are living in poverty now with even less?

In many countries, like Mexico you have to prove to the government that a Mexican Citizen can not do the job you can performs in order to work there. Same with Canada, and if you want to emigrate to Canada you better speak French as well as English if you want extra consideration. Every country has rules and regulations for the protection of their citizens, infrastructure and economy. Compared to most 1st world nations the US is pretty easy to get into, all you have to say is, "I wanna," and get in line. I don't really understand what more you think the US can or should do?
Anna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 02:06 AM   #23
auntie aubrey
excursions
 
auntie aubrey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: beyond the call of duty
Posts: 2,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bales View Post
The idea that now that we're here, or since we were born here, we should draw the ladder up after us seems awfully mean-spirited to me.
i agree. immigration has done nothing but improve the american culture with every generation. being quite the complex stew of genealogy myself, i'm a big believer in adding more ingredients to the pot.

i think what's going on here is that your wording itself is intended to be complimentary to the potential immigrants but unfortunately it comes off as a little elitist and exclusionary to the people who choose not to immigrate. it's a battle of wording semantics, at least i think that's what's going on.

as far as my own thoughts on the subject, i believe in the concept of the guest worker program with a defined path towards legal citizenship. i feel like that's in everyone's best interests for several reasons.

the thing is, not everyone who comes to this country really wants to give up their devotion to their nation of origin. i don't believe in jingoistic shows of pledging allegiance and i think it's absolutely possible to be a peaceful well-meaning contributor to this society and economy without having a desperate drive towards citizenship. the benefit? allowing workers to come here as guests would give us the ability to record their presence in this country and keep track of who's who and what income is taxable. having records would help with law enforcement and drawing taxes on their earnings would compensate for the costs of supporting the total population. the benefit to the workers is that by being on record they could have access to the same protections to safety and personal liberty that all human beings should enjoy. they could work out in the open where OSHA could regulate their working conditions and they could be eligible for protection from employers that like to side-step human rights issues. they could continue to work and send money home to their families and if their intention is to stay only for a short period, they could return home at will. if, however, they chose eventually to stay, their time spent in this country should count towards the path to citizenship.

oh, and i also believe in building the fence. there has to be a way to stop the unregulated flood of untraceable people. for our own safety, and i'm not talking about a terrorism issue. i mean we should have the right to turn away felons and violent criminals. but we can't do that as long as people continue to flood across the open border. additionally, people die making the attempt. there has to be a way to stop the attempts if only to save the people who aren't fit enough for the effort.
__________________
that dog won't hunt, monsignor
auntie aubrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 07:05 PM   #24
rapscalious rob
Have a Gorilla.
 
rapscalious rob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: There, everyone likes a Gorilla.
Posts: 178
Dennis Kucinich - 62
Mike Gravel - 54
Bill Richardson - 54
Chris Dodd - 50
John Edwards - 47
Barack Obama - 45
Hillary Clinton - 45
Joe Biden - 35
Rudy Giuliani - 29
Ron Paul - 29
John McCain - 14
Mitt Romney - 7
Mike Huckabee - 5

I didn’t really agree with all of the questions, but whatever - it’s a poll.
__________________
You go skipping and prancing through life, skipping through a field of dandelions. But what you donít see is that on each dandelion is a bee, and on each bee is an ant, and the ant is biting the bee and the bee is biting the flower, and if that shocks you then Iím sorry.

Last edited by rapscalious rob : 11-19-2007 at 07:11 PM.
rapscalious rob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 03:32 AM   #25
Jack Flanders
landscaping is fun
 
Jack Flanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: up river and down river
Posts: 4,815
yep!! it's a pole - slick and smooth. don't forget to vote.
Jack Flanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 06:29 AM   #26
Marcus Bales
________________
 
Marcus Bales's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a coign of the cliff between lowland and highland, at the sea-down's edge between windward and lee, walled round with rocks as an inland island, the ghost of a garden fronts the sea.
Posts: 8,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna View Post
er, um, huh? I don't really understand what you are saying, you mean if they ask to enter we should say, "oh, how nice that's really great! (but you still have to get in line!)"
Pretty much, except I think the line should also move faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna View Post
There are apx. 12 million illegal immigrants in the US, over 1 million people apply legally every year; in 2003 apx. 400,000 people were granted entry, apx. 600,000 were still in process (red tape; forms, health and criminal background...). Their are 47 million American citizens in the US now without health care, we are burning energy at such a high rate that we are choking cities with pollution and waste, we have water problems and shortages, food problems, job problems, homeless problems, infrastructure problems. How many more people do you think the system or country can support without breaking it or denying those who are living in poverty now with even less?
You're assuming that every immigrant will be a burden, and I think that's a mistake. I'm assuming that most immigrants will add to the collective wealth rather than take away from it -- as history has generally shown happens. Not always, of course, but that's the way to bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna View Post
In many countries, like Mexico you have to prove to the government that a Mexican Citizen can not do the job you can performs in order to work there. Same with Canada, and if you want to emigrate to Canada you better speak French as well as English if you want extra consideration. Every country has rules and regulations for the protection of their citizens, infrastructure and economy. Compared to most 1st world nations the US is pretty easy to get into, all you have to say is, "I wanna," and get in line. I don't really understand what more you think the US can or should do?
I'm not arguing there should be no rules or limits; I'm arguing that the basic notion that people who want to come to the US for their own economic advantage are just the kind of people we want. Those are the people who will, generally speaking, work hard and add to the collective wealth, and pay taxes.
__________________
My strength is as the strength of eight --
My heart is nearly pure.
Marcus Bales is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 10:02 AM   #27
Anna
n
 
Anna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,752
hmmÖ
Before I lay my argument out; *and show all the holes in yours, I have a few questions Iíd like to ask before hand.
1. will anything I say politically really make a difference or have you already made up your mind?
2. does this board really want to pursue the timbre that goes along with a political discussion?

I have no great need to argue politics here; Iím so politically entertained already, and *please do not take my curt reply as disrespectful; it just goes along with the hot button issue territory
Anna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 10:59 AM   #28
trisherina
meretricious dilettante
 
trisherina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna View Post
hmmÖ
1. will anything I say politically really make a difference or have you already made up your mind?
2. does this board really want to pursue the timbre that goes along with a political discussion?
There's no reliable way to know the answer to the first question for certain, no matter what anyone might tell you. Recall how many people you've come across claiming to have open minds when their behaviour indicated the opposite. "Having an open mind" and "sincerely considering the views of others" are pretty ego-syntonic, like "being a good friend" and "having a sense of humour." Sharp insight about stuff like that is often not available to the first-person speaker.

Looking at the second, do you want the discussion to have "the timbre that goes along with a political discussion?" It's entirely up to you how curt etc. you make your replies. Everyone contributes to setting the tone, no matter what the issue itself.
__________________
Because how we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. -- Annie Dillard
trisherina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 11:16 AM   #29
auntie aubrey
excursions
 
auntie aubrey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: beyond the call of duty
Posts: 2,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by trisherina View Post
Looking at the second, do you want the discussion to have "the timbre that goes along with a political discussion?" It's entirely up to you how curt etc. you make your replies. Everyone contributes to setting the tone, no matter what the issue itself.
true, but i don't think the question is an invalid one. there's a particular tone that political discussions seem to take on, regardless of whether one's typical posting style is confrontational or curt. it's more a manifestation of politics in a group dynamic than the group dynamic itself.

i think it's something to be considered. political discussions are highly opinionated ones. people are going to inevitably disagree. on the one hand, participants have to commit to showing respect for each others' views. on the other hand, those who find discord unacceptable likely won't enjoy the experience no matter how committed the participants are to respect.

the thread will lack the capriciousness of other topics in free chat. does the board really want to pursue the timbre that goes along with a political discussion? i think it's a valid question.
__________________
that dog won't hunt, monsignor
auntie aubrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 11:44 AM   #30
Hyakujo's Fox
left hanging
 
Hyakujo's Fox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: between the click of the light and the start of the dream
Posts: 10,071
I suppose one could discuss a topic philosophically rather than politically, if you're really desperate.
Hyakujo's Fox is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 12:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.