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Old 03-11-2005, 08:09 PM   #31
Saxifrage
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Again one final dig at religion. If you want to start a thread: "I think religion is bad and all who follow are morons" then fine. But that's not what we're talking about here. Sax asked what our beliefs are. Not what your beleifs aren't. I just think it's very easy for you to poo poo others beliefs, but very difficult for you to actualy say what yours are. And I think that if this truly forms part of your life philosophy, then you are equally as guilty of the ignorance of those you speak out so much against.
Personally I think Smarty has more reason to dislike christians than most. Christianity tells him that what he is inside is an abberation and he will be punished for all eternity simply for being who he is. It's hard to get over that. If you were to ask me what I think about George W. Bush my reply would make you think me a most hatefull individual, which I am not. I just have very strong convictions about politics and it's influence on civilisation. Even in the most civil of political discussions I can work in many scathing criticisms of W. while remaining friendly about all else. No one should have to defend their beliefs in this thread, I made that mistake and apologised to Clyti for doing so. All I am looking for is to get a feel for peoples personal philosophies and perhaps expand upon them in days to come.

I am never online during the weekend so don't think I've abandoned the thread when you don't hear from me until monday. I hope everyone has a good weekend.
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Old 03-13-2005, 02:36 AM   #32
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Stop Talking and Start Listening
aka the Lost Covenant of Snake

I believe in reincarnation and preordination.

I believe I chose my life before I came here. I also believe that I have forgotton what my true lessons and purpose in this life are and it's my job while I'm here, to remember, learn my lessons and carry out my reason for being here.

I believe in the power of prayer to an external God and that the Holy Ghost is the physical expression of God within me and others. I believe that I must remain open to others in order that I not miss an opportunity to receive the Holy Ghost - and ergo a chance to remember my purpose.

Now, I've let you into my castle - and it has sheer walls and cauldrons of boiling oil at the ready. Wipe your feet, no flash photography and last one out, turn off the lights and lock up, thank-you.
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Old 03-13-2005, 06:39 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Saxifrage
Personally I think Smarty has more reason to dislike christians than most. Christianity tells him that what he is inside is an abberation and he will be punished for all eternity simply for being who he is.

NOT TRUE.
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Old 03-14-2005, 02:28 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by chuckie egg
NOT TRUE.
I need a little more information than that to understand what you mean. Are you saying all christians are hunky dory with homosexuality?
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Old 03-14-2005, 05:59 PM   #35
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No but you suggest that they all condone it, and thats simply not true.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:12 PM   #36
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Hey Y'all.

Please note SP and all, that my comments regarding SP's post are really not an attack. SP is a great individual from what I have read of his posts and really is championing causes that he believes in. I suppose I'm just playing Devils Advocate really. I still look at his thread and go "This is just a list of negatatives." I don't believe this, I don't believe this, I don't believe this etc. I'm all for trying to shake people out of the Chrisitan Fundamentalist rut that seems to be pervading America at the moment. But how do we do this? Do we do this by being intollerent of the intollerent? That just seems wrong to me and makes me do what they do. And a lot of his comments seem rather than being anti-christian, are anti-religion. Not all religions are like Chrisitianity. Not all Chrisitans are fundamentalists. Not all chrisitans are anti-gay. Not all christians are anti-choice. It's just the ones who are who seem to have the loudest voices. This is of course a shame.

I don't beleive I was attacking SP's beliefs, nor do I feel that he should defend them if he feels that I was. It is worth noting though that he attacks the beliefs of others quite a lot on other threads....

Best Regards to all and an apology to Mr. Smartpants if he feels at all attacked by my comments on his post. As I say, I suppose I'm just playing Devils advocate in this situation.

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Old 03-14-2005, 06:35 PM   #37
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I don't feel attacked, and even if I did, I don't get bent out of shape over online discussions. Chill.

That said, I'm sorry if it seems I've been unresponsive lately. My off-line life has been calling and I haven't had time to respond much.

FTM, you say:
I'm all for trying to shake people out of the Chrisitan Fundamentalist rut that seems to be pervading America at the moment. But how do we do this? Do we do this by being intollerent of the intollerent? That just seems wrong to me and makes me do what they do. And a lot of his comments seem rather than being anti-christian, are anti-religion. Not all religions are like Chrisitianity. Not all Chrisitans are fundamentalists. Not all chrisitans are anti-gay. Not all christians are anti-choice. It's just the ones who are who seem to have the loudest voices. This is of course a shame.
Well, here's the thing. I see no problem in being intolerant of the intolerant. In fact, I see no other option. Quite the opposite. Intolerance is the ONLY way out of this "rut." I think I stated earier that one of the problems that come with the political incorrectness of questioning the faith of others is that it limits the dialogue required to bring about change.

And the criticism can't come from people like me. In much the same way that my San Francisco return address makes my letters to Congress less effectual than those that come from Red regions when requesting representatives use common sense in government, atheists have much less power in calling for limits to organized religion's abuses than do followers of those religions.

It takes people like you (and even more important, Clytie and Chuckie) to have zero-tolerance policies about the intolerance of your churches.

What exactly is wrong with being intolerant of the intolerant? Remaining silent allowed Senator McCarthy to ruin the lives of thousands of Americans in the 50s, the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII, the extermination of 8 million Jews under Hitler, the loss of millions of lives in Congo under Belgian King Leopold, and recently in Rwanda.

Speaking up, however, brings change.

And let me clarify. My comments are mostly anti-Christian because Christians are the problem right now in America, and the dialogue I am having on this board seems to be with Christians. My sentiments apply however, to all organized religion. Believing in God is not the problem here. The need for any organized religion to demand adherence to a set of narrow-minded and irrational set of beliefs in order to ensure its own survival is.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by chuckie egg
No but you suggest that they all condone it, and thats simply not true.
Did I suggest that all christians condone homosexuality? Or did you mean that I implied that all christians condone hatred of homosexuals? Sure there are plenty of "love the sinner hate the sin" christians but they are in the minority just like compassionate conservatives. There are some churches that have become very open and tolerant even letting them be preachers and such but the fact is the majority of christian DO NOT approve of homosexuality. Especially those who are influencing policy in our government. I don't care if some of them are nice about it, there are plenty of polite racists out there as well.

If you are christian who wholeheartedly accepts people for who they are then good for you, get out there and knock some sense into your compatriots.
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Old 03-14-2005, 06:51 PM   #39
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I'm all for trying to shake people out of the Chrisitan Fundamentalist rut that seems to be pervading America at the moment. But how do we do this? Do we do this by being intollerent of the intollerent?
I understand what you are saying but I feel that if I am overly tolerant of such intolerance (gotta love that turn of phrase) then the intolerant will roll right over me. Complete pacifism is a dead end street. I will admit that I am an extremist in many ways and very willing to fight, brutally if necessary, to defend my beliefs in the face of those who would strip me of my rights because their deity tells them to.
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:07 AM   #40
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all this toleration of intoleration is making my head spin.
as is the confusion between condemn and condone
which seems to be causing some problems here.
ok, carry on. i've stated my beliefs, if you have any
further questions please ask smaprtaynts.
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Old 03-15-2005, 02:47 PM   #41
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intolerance just leads to more intolerance...how come you can have your left liberal ideals and ideas but im not supposed to have my right conservative thoughts?
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:14 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Clytie
intolerance just leads to more intolerance...how come you can have your left liberal ideals and ideas but im not supposed to have my right conservative thoughts?
I definitely have to give you credit for jumping into the viper filled pit

As far as I can tell you are a kindhearted, nice person. What you have to realise is that you are in the minority of christians who try to be accepting of others. Good for you. The vocal wing of the religious right is obstinately trying to insinuate themselves where they do not belong, the government, and have done so with an aggressive force. I will not have my government telling me who I can and can't marry, that is up to the individual church. If your congregation doesn't want to marry homosexuals that is their business but what they are asking is for the government to step in and have the say so. Do you want some outside entity telling your church what it can and can't believe?

That is just one of many examples. The religious right in extremely intolerant and if I am tolerant of this I will get pushed over by a rabid, foaming at the mouth zealots who thinks that bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors is the right way to do things. When this sort of person comes to me they will find a brick wall of opposing force that will happily plant their face into the pavement.

I believe that everyone has the right to their personal beliefs, religious or otherwise but when these beliefs lead them to try and legislate my behavior as well that is where I draw the line. If you want to say a prayer in school then fine, all religions must be equally represented and we will spend all day saying prayers to all the existing belief systems and deities. You want to teach religion in schools okay then you must teach them all and not just white protestantism or catholicism. For expediancy we must forbid any particular religious belief from entering the classrooms and leave the theology lessons to the parents.

Believe it or not it is your freedom that I am fighting for as well as my own. An individual has the right to poo poo on your beliefs but not to deny them to you. I support a secular liberal government, people can poo poo this as well but they cannot stop me. Please don't take it personally.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:32 PM   #43
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nope. i agree with whatcha said. i like america. i have the freedom to be a christian to have that opinion...just like you have the ability to be gay. im for equal rights. not more rights for one group or another.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:38 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Clytie
nope. i agree with whatcha said. i like america. i have the freedom to be a christian to have that opinion...just like you have the ability to be gay. im for equal rights. not more rights for one group or another.
Whoaa, hold up. Never said I was gay. It's not required to be a liberal.
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Old 03-15-2005, 04:43 PM   #45
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i've heard lots of stories about saxi and the ladies clytie
and you better watch out, he's a modern day casanova.
liberals have better sex!
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