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Old 02-21-2005, 07:30 AM   #1
Smartypants
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The Mortal Dangers of Religious Faith

Hey, maybe it's time for a whole unto-itself Religion Forum!

Here's some food for thought.

Comments?
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Old 02-21-2005, 09:07 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartypants
Hey, maybe it's time for a whole unto-itself Religion Forum!

Comments?
Be careful what you pray for...
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Old 02-23-2005, 05:06 AM   #3
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He is pretty cute for a neurosciencehottie...

I bet he is kind of neurotic though....

I am a catholic in bad standing...which means I am going to purgotory when I die.

Do I care? No

I have a shit load of time to fix it all, right?

Growing up, I had the guilt though....

If I have kids..I am going to give them the God guilt also...when they are adults...they can choose for themselves...

Do I see a Movie of the Week?
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:25 PM   #4
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Ha! I knew he looked familiar!
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:29 PM   #5
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Click for Quicktime movie.
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Old 03-17-2005, 12:26 AM   #6
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But we also put faith into science don't we?

Science is only useful if we have the wisdom to use it properly.
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Old 03-17-2005, 02:08 AM   #7
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But we also put faith into science don't we?
How so? Faith that what we understand about the world through study and experience isn't imagined?

Based on the principles of aerodynamics, does man have "faith" that a plane will fly? No. That is not faith, that is an understanding based on knowledge gained studying physics.

Jumping off the roof of a tall building because you believe you can fly -- that's faith.

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Science is only useful if we have the wisdom to use it properly.
Can't diagree with that, my friend. To borrow a page from the religious nuts, let's replace the word "god" with the word "science" and say "Science is infallible. Man is the one who's flawed."
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Old 03-17-2005, 03:09 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Feed the Monkey
But we also put faith into science don't we?

Science is only useful if we have the wisdom to use it properly.
By "into science" you might mean

a) into the idea that the currently accepted theories of science are accurate descriptions of what happens
b) into the idea that the process of science will always work toward finding better theories
c) into the ability of science to drive technological solutions to our material problems
d) into the ability of science to provide answers for all our questions
e) into the idea that having science, and the technology that it provides, is in our best interests

If by faith you mean "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." rather than "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing."

7 entries found for faith.

then I agree with smarty, you do not need faith to believe in the accuracy of accepted scientific theories, as they are supported by evidence.
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Old 03-17-2005, 02:47 PM   #9
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I have faith in science. Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing against science in the slightest. I'm not an ignorant religious follower who ignores fact. It has furthered our understanding of how the universe works. It scientifically proves things. But I have faith that a plane will fly due to the law of aero dynamics. I haven't studied aero dynamics. I haven't spent hours in a wind tunnel doing complicated calculations to understand why this happens. Someone has told me that this will happen and I beleive them. I see planes fly, therefore i have faith that when I get onto one it won't crash. I also have faith in the law of gravity. I have been told that mass produces gravity, hence why we don't float off into space, and why we orbit round the sun. i have not spent hours in a laboratory proving that two atoms will atrract one atom because it has more mass. Someone has told me that this is the case and I have faith that it is correct. There is evidence in each of the cases that has been carried out by scientists and I have faith in their discoveries.

I have also been told that mankind has a buddha nature, that we acheive anything we put our hands to and that mankind is intrinsically a wise, compassionate and courageous group of beings, but that we have to strive hard to get to this level. The way we judge any faith is in it's proof. There are three forms of proof. A: Theoretical proof, whereby a theory is expounded and explained thoroughly. B: Documentary proof, wherby the theory is backed up by other sources. C: Actual proof, wherby we see the signs of theory and documentary proof in front of our eyes. If any faith lacks any of the three forms of proof then it is unbalanced. my faith in science has all three. My faith in my religion has all three. I've had prayers come true. I've challenged myself to become a happier better person. I don't think religion in our current age should try and answer scientific questions. It may have done this when people of the age needed myth to live by. It is now no longer the case and we have excellent scientists to answer those questions for us. But science doesn't teach us how to be happy in our daily lives, and how to interact with one another to acheive a better way of life for all people. Science also tends to lead towards a very materialisitc way of viewing things, which if this carries over into our real lives, means that we shall only live materialistically, which i think is a shallow way to think. science teaches us about the world around us, religion deals with the self.

And fox by faith i do mean confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. That is entirely what I mean by faith. I have evidnece in my life for me to continue to have faith in my religion. I have evidence in my life to continue to beleive in science.

You also say: "into the ability of science to provide answers for all our questions"

ALL of our questions? A scientist may be able to say why someone is dead, but never why they are alive. They can explain how a sperm meets an egg. But never why. And again, why do human beings suffer? If there is a scientific answer to this question I would love to hear it. And again, how can human beings become happy? Again, no scientific answer. One can say, "happiness is due to the amount of endorphins in the brain" but this is the effect not the cause of happiness surely?

Anyway, I feel privelaged because my faith walks hand in hand with science and we greet each new discovery that benefits mankind with open arms. however, I beleive that it is just another form of faith. To quote einstein:

"Science without religion is base.
religion without science is base."

I do not believe that science and religion should be two opposing forces. That applies to both sides.
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed the Monkey
There are three forms of proof. A: Theoretical proof, whereby a theory is expounded and explained thoroughly. B: Documentary proof, wherby the theory is backed up by other sources. C: Actual proof, wherby we see the signs of theory and documentary proof in front of our eyes. If any faith lacks any of the three forms of proof then it is unbalanced. .... My faith in my religion has all three. I've had prayers come true. I've challenged myself to become a happier better person.
Sorry, but I don't believe having a prayer come true is proof of anything. Faith, by its nature, does NOT rely on the types of proof you specify.

Quote:
You also say: "into the ability of science to provide answers for all our questions"

ALL of our questions? A scientist may be able to say why someone is dead, but never why they are alive. They can explain how a sperm meets an egg. But never why. And again, why do human beings suffer? If there is a scientific answer to this question I would love to hear it. And again, how can human beings become happy? Again, no scientific answer. One can say, "happiness is due to the amount of endorphins in the brain" but this is the effect not the cause of happiness surely?
You're right. Science doesn't answer ALL our questions. There's a lot we don't know yet. But science has the potential to answer them all (not today, not tomorrow, but possibly someday if we don't destroy ourselves first), whereas religion does not. And, even on the subject of god: If he really existed (or exists), it will in fact be a scientist who proves it, not a religious leader. But don't hold your breath. So far in our history, science has turned up only facts that point to faith in his existence unfounded.
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:58 PM   #11
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Well for me, the actualising of prayers and determinations is faith in action. Let's agree to disagree on that one. And please note that I'm not referring to God. I'm not a God believer so I'm not holdig my breath for anything.

A quick explanation for the three proofs. These three proofs are what we use in our Buddhist practice to see if a teaching is worth following. To put it into a metaphor:
A scientist has created a new plane. He explains throughly how the new plane will work, the reason he designed it why he did, how it's interesting aero-dynamic shape will hold it up in the air. He then shows you his scientific findings and the papers that he and others have written on the subject, backed up with lots of evidence in wind tunnels etc. These two proofs are the theoretical and the documentary. But they are useless without the actual proof. If the plane takes off, and immediatly comes crashing to the ground, do you get on the plane? There is nothing wrong with desiring actual proof from any faith. In fact I demand it as part of mine. Anyway, just an explaination of why I use the three proofs in this dialogue.

I hope your undoubted faith in the fact that science holds the answers to leading a happy life come true for you friend. As yet I personally have had no answers from science into these realms as it doesn't deal with the spiritual nature of human beings nor with the realms of how human beings deal with eachother. But if you beleive that it does, then hold onto that faith. I hope it serves you well, even if I somewhat confused by the hypothesis. For me, faith begins where science leaves off.

Also on another note, science backs up everything that I beleive in my religion so far. Any scientific discovery has not rocked the eastern way of thought, merely expanded upon it and given it documentary proof.

Like I say, I beleive faith and science should walk hand in hand.

Best regards.
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Old 03-17-2005, 06:42 PM   #12
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Holding steady at 99%, Captain....
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Old 03-18-2005, 06:51 PM   #13
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Sam Harris will be appearing on Book TV on CSPAN-2 this Sunday night: 9:15 PM (Pacific), 12:15 AM (Eastern).

------------
Book TV:

The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason
Sam Harris

Description:*Sam Harris talks about his book, "The End of Faith," at the
University Synagogue in Irvine, California. Mr. Harris argues that religion
plays a major role in the increasingly dangerous world we find ourselves in
today. He criticizes the influence of religion in both the United States and
across the Muslim world and says that for peace to exist, reason must
replace faith as the driving force in society. Mr. Harris takes questions
from the audience following his remarks.
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Old 03-18-2005, 08:10 PM   #14
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sounds like a dangerous radical to me.
nuke him!
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Old 03-18-2005, 08:13 PM   #15
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sounds like a dangerous radical to me.
nuke him!
Is that nukular or nuclear?
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